Event idea: 'The Anethionean dominion'

Yes we know. That proves nothing however as it's the player who discovers the truth, not the Church. They could be covering it up for all we know. It is pointless discussing that particular matter as everyone and their mother will have a different opinion. Let us discuss how best to go about this plot/event.

Aldric Essalus Helmfrid wrote:Yes we know. That proves nothing however as it's the player who discovers the truth, not the Church. They could be covering it up for all we know. It is pointless discussing that particular matter as everyone and their mother will have a different opinion. Let us discuss how best to go about this plot/event.

It is not pointless to discuss precisely because everybody and their mother have different opinions. You are acting as if the fact that this event is going to happen is already a given and rather harshly snap at people who then question its fundamentals or otherwise find it undesirable for whatever reason. I dont want to be sowing drama here but try and to at least have some respect for those who may not want this event to occur for whatever reason and listen to their complaints. Because right now it sounds like you are pretty much saying "This event is going to happen whether you like it or not and you better find a way to deal with it", rather than "Let's brainstorm about this idea for an even we have!", and that's just not very nice.

You could give us some suggestions with ways you feel that would benefit the Church guilds, if you feel all of ours are not suitable. Everyone bear in mine we're not a dark cult taking over Stormwind, let us begin to discuss the politics and early events for a little while as it seems resistance is everyones biggest focus. Yes, certain groups despise the Chapter but rebellion wouldn't begin until we start taking away liberties and being a general pain in the ass. In the early days we will just be spreading propaganda and interrogating church members whilst we uphold faith in Stormwind.

Was my reply to nay sayers, I've been asking them how we could make it work. It's even at the top of this very page. So I'm not sure where you are getting this from Thelos. - Anyway moving swiftly on.

I do see where Valestrion is coming from this, He, Fort and Maelmoor are the principal people seen in their guilds which are all based around the Church, this will mean a loss of prestige for each of those characters IC'ly unless methods can be found that these guilds are the ones who stop all the madness, hense my earlier idea that our guilds be the leaders of the resistance, it's pretty obvious that no-one in any of the guilds in question is going to bow down to the Chapter without a fight so it would make sense IC'ly.

Well, to speak on behalf of the shining strand...including fort, we love this type of events. and we have zero problem with being targeted as possibly corrupt or whatever, heck we've been deciding on how to get ourselves endited since fort began his church upheavale thread, and i believe fort has been sitting on the benny news for the past three weeks since an SI-7 agent contacted him, and just didn't find a right time to announce the betrayal and death yet.

heck weve been having trouble finding a plausible way to endite our chars as possible cultists... or atleast we've been building a record of inconsistencies lately...

No I mean I love the event, I'm just asking Aldric to cool down a tad and indicating my personal viewpoint...

Valestrion wrote:It seems to me that the main stream Church guilds are being steamrollered here. We can try to stop the situation ever happening but I doubt we'll be allowed to succeed as that would stop the event going ahead. Then, once it does happen, we are now being told that it's unrealistic for to lead the fight back, meaning that we will only be restored because we are seen to be the lesser of two evils. Right now it seems we have two choices.

a) Get arrested, locked up and tortured until a backlash by peasants reluctantly returns us to our position, with a fraction of the respect we once had.
b) Withdraw from the RP community

There's a third option with questionable outcomes that the Seal took when faced with the same choice. It's an interesting and exciting one. I suggest you take it.

Frankly I have to agree with Aldric, I've seen DoL threaten to ignore two server wide events in the past few months because they might have to make difficult decisions IC. That said we once put our foot down and refused to have one of our members kidnapped. In our defence we had three other members kidnapped by other parties at the time and had lost a further two characters to permenant death in the same week. Further the number of times we've gone out on a limb and taken dangerous decisions lends itself to our case. Banishment to Lakeshire (accepted), SI:7 infiltration (one character by design, another by chance), employing and harbouring various witches, necromancers, warlocks and other questionable types, attempted arrest and persecution of the leader of the Blazing Shields, illegally torturing and robbing a political rival, Genevieve once risked court martial by betraying her comrades, Tarvik ultimately died for his pains, a member of the family (extended) turned rogue sorcerer, resisting arrest (in spirit if not by the letter of the law), taking justice into their own hands along with the Blades after a court reached an unsatisfactory verdict etc. Any one of these decisions could have seriously bitten us on the ass, and several of them did. But all of them were incredible fun. Reputation is a fragile thing, but I think you're going to do your guild much more harm by throwing teddy out of the pram and refusing to take part in something than by taking part and making the best of it.4

Regards,

Feel free to praise, criticize, or shoot down this idea.

Hum, I read the start. And I jumped to this point. It seems like everyone who is approving this event is 100% sure, that the Chapter will succeed to actually get a grip for a while. And I think that's one point that is bothering some people.. or atleast myself.

I would say; Agree on how the corrupted Bishops absence would mean to the city. Then skip the OOC talking here, and let the Chapter attempt to turn the city. But such shouldn't be as easy as you're attempting to claim it to be, as in such of an crucial point both the council and king should be very suspicious of uprising organisation. And keep in mind that criminals would take advantage of this aswell. Others then that is just your quality of RP - debate - creativity, against the others, and see if you succeed or not.

Ishap wrote:No I mean I love the event, I'm just asking Aldric to cool down a tad

I am as cool as can be. I'm just trying to keep up with the flow of suggestions, opinions and criticisms, condense the points down for our own forum, reply to the comments directed at myself and attempt to keep this brainwave from falling off-topic heh. I'd like to hear some suggestions and discussions on something other than the rebellion or the many reasons you guys are creating to join a rebellion and possibly on how this would be conducted and the events that lead up to it. The rebellion will fall into the hands of a suitable person who is capable of leading it when the time is right.

Thanks for the feedback. If anyone feels like they can do this in their own way, by all means do a write up and bring it to the community for discussion. Remember to stay on topic. I believe if you don't want this to happen you're welcome to try and create your own plot and pit it against ours. For those of you who like what they see perhaps we can start planning some events that would lead up to it.

Just give me a rifle, one round and point me at Northshire abbey.

( I'd love to get in on this, on the resistances side ofc. Shuffling their arses in some civil war will be good!!)

This is precisely one of my points, Borian. The plot seems unrealistic to me for a number of reasons and yet we are being asked to accept the Chapter's coup as a given.

1) The Council of Bishops will be perfectly aware that the people will be concerned about reports that the Archbishop has betrayed the Church and will act to address those concerns.
2) The people have no reason before these events to doubt the Church and, if they even get past the assumption that there must be a reasonable explanation because any suggestion that the Archbishop has betrayed the Church is beyond credibility, they are likely to look to the Bishops to resolve the situation first.
3) Even if they do begin to suspect the Church of being corrupt, it's likely to be months, if not years, before they summon the courage to dissent openly against an organisation as powerful as the Church.
4) The first person they will look to for leadership in such a crisis is the King. Unless the King turns to Anethion, there is next to no chance that the people will do so in great numbers.
5) The King very unlikely to convert to Anethionism. They are not even trusted to be Stormwind Guards, and it probably wouldn't be good for Stormwind alliances with the other nations.
6) The King will be very aware that one of the biggest threats to the stability of Stormwind at this time will be the rise of opportunist religions encouraging civil unrest. SI:7 have probably already been given orders to watch the Chapter closely and the leaders of the Chapter would probably be arrested before they even got to the Council chamber to start making demands.

Valestrion wrote:It seems to me that the main stream Church guilds are being steamrollered here. We can try to stop the situation ever happening but I doubt we'll be allowed to succeed as that would stop the event going ahead. Then, once it does happen, we are now being told that it's unrealistic for to lead the fight back, meaning that we will only be restored because we are seen to be the lesser of two evils. Right now it seems we have two choices.

a) Get arrested, locked up and tortured until a backlash by peasants reluctantly returns us to our position, with a fraction of the respect we once had.
b) Withdraw from the RP community

Vale, your getting really unreasonable, those are not the only options.

Vale is making a good point... However.... Moar civil warr!

Gen, I think your comments are unfair. We are frequently involved in events where we don't get things our own way. Only this week, JP was kidnapped and we had to drop everything to get him back. It would have gone on longer if we hadn't already got another event planned, and part of the deal to end it early was to give Crojwin an OOC heads up on a new regime of Holy Brigade patrols.

What I am opposed to is events that go against the fundamental concept of the Disciples of Light being a well-respected mainstream order of holy knights. I am sure the Dieudonné Seal wouldn't have been very happy, for instance, if a law was passed limiting any household to five servants, none of whom may bear arms.

Archbishop Benedictus is the Twilight Lord. Heroes of the Alliance have slain him, deathwing is dead, they return and the news spreads. Even if we say Deathwing isn't dead yet, Benedictus is slain before the war/battle even begins. The Church try to brush it off with rumours. More and more people are swept up in the rumours and the Archbishop has not returning may not help the Church's cause.

Regardless each one of your posts is giving me nothing to work with, your logic just doesn't make much sense in this current situation. Tell me why would the public turn to the Bishops for guidance. You have made your point in that you are against this plot as it forces you into a compromising IC position. I'm sorry but even if it was not the Chapter doing this Fortesgue and the Shining Strand where planning events based on this Lore for a while now.

Valestrion wrote:We are frequently involved in events where we don't get things our own way. Only this week, JP was kidnapped and we had to drop everything to get him back. It would have gone on longer if we hadn't already got another event planned, and part of the deal to end it early was to give Crojwin an OOC heads up on a new regime of Holy Brigade patrols.

You make this sound like a bad thing. This is what roleplay is all about Vale.

No, Pert, you are right. Those are not the only options. We could disband the Disciples of Light or go and join up with Bennedictus. I am, however, struggling to see any constructive options at present. If we are not allowed to stop the coup happening in the first place, and we are not allowed to lead the fight back against the Chapter, I am not sure what we are allowed to do.

Valestrion wrote:Gen, I think your comments are unfair. We are frequently involved in events where we don't get things our own way. Only this week, JP was kidnapped and we had to drop everything to get him back. It would have gone on longer if we hadn't already got another event planned, and part of the deal to end it early was to give Crojwin an OOC heads up on a new regime of Holy Brigade patrols.

What I am opposed to is events that go against the fundamental concept of the Disciples of Light being a well-respected mainstream order of holy knights. I am sure the Dieudonné Seal wouldn't have been very happy, for instance, if a law was passed limiting any household to five servants, none of whom may bear arms.

No I agree with Gene on this one. You do avoid most conflict involving other guilds. Though it goes off the point of the thread.

No, Aldric, I am not saying it's a bad thing. I'm simply pointing out that it's not true that we don't take part in events that are uncomfortable for us. The only bad thing about JP's kidnapping this week was that there was a conflict with another event.

Hello, my name is Logic and i am not here.

If YOU dont want to be part of an event, YOU dont have to par-take in said event.

If OTHERS want to par-take in an Event, OTHERS have the right to make that event.

Anything else is nitpicking at lore and personal opinions for the sake of it.

Unfortunately, Seiken, we don't have a choice. This event is going to involve us whether we like it or not.

Valestrion wrote:Unfortunately, Seiken, we don't have a choice. This event is going to involve us whether we like it or not.

You don't have to pull your entire guild from the event, if certain members still want to be a part of it that is fine. At the end of the day we can't force anyone to do some they don't want to we can only hope they find something of value in what we bring to the table.

This is the same thing as the famine event really isnt it, there you gave yourself the choice of prison, abandon the poor to starve or ignore the plot. Now here you could do a few things I would think about if I was GM of DoL

You could take the guild out of SW for a while, until its all done (this would mean missing out on the most exciting bit of CoL lore blizz has given us)
You could stay in SW and cover your eyes and ignore it
You could Join in and not get involved with either side and go on the street preaching peace and the virtues (who knows, you may get new recruits this way)
You could go along with the chapter as you want to prove you are clean and take the rap afte rthe event ic for not doing enough.
You could work with the rebels and take the rap ic in the event for maybe being twilight.
You could work against the chapter in absolute secrecy and not be found (or maybe found and dragged to an Anethionean court)
You could work for the rebels in a supporting manner, giving out bread and water, healing the wounded.
You could talk to the chapter about being ic exiled and to return later as martyrs for the anti-anethionean cause.
You could petition the houses/council/courts to try and legally remove Os.
You could pay assassins to try and assassinate Os.
You could set up a split in your guild with half falling with the rebels and half with the chapter. After the event there would be mistrust and a whole bucket of RP.
You could tell SI7/chapter ooc it is fine for your char to be investgated (see where that goes)

That was all I could think of off the top of my head.

One more thing... how do you think the chapter will be treated ic after this?

Valestrion wrote:1) The Council of Bishops will be perfectly aware that the people will be concerned about reports that the Archbishop has betrayed the Church and will act to address those concerns.

The leader of a organisation you trusted to basically tell you how to live your life just got shown to be a gigantic traitor, towards the kingdom and most of what he was supposed to stand for.
A couple of Bishops going "calm your shit" isn't going to calm everybody down.

Valestrion wrote:
2) The people have no reason before these events to doubt the Church and, if they even get past the assumption that there must be a reasonable explanation because any suggestion that the Archbishop has betrayed the Church is beyond credibility, they are likely to look to the Bishops to resolve the situation first.

Deathwing basically flew over Stormwind and most would be aware that he could have destroyed the city if he wanted to. Now the leader of the church has gone to work for him, but the rest of the church? Yeah they are all cool, we trust em just like we used to trust the Archbishop, right?

Valestrion wrote:
3) Even if they do begin to suspect the Church of being corrupt, it's likely to be months, if not years, before they summon the courage to dissent openly against an organisation as powerful as the Church.

The church is in dissaray, they leader just left them, might be some members have even begun to lose faith in his teaching, plus never underestimate the power of a angry mob.
It only takes one guy flinging a rock from the crowd before a riot erupts.

Valestrion wrote:
4) The first person they will look to for leadership in such a crisis is the King. Unless the King turns to Anethion, there is next to no chance that the people will do so in great numbers.

Why would they look for a king busy plotting wars with the horde for leadership concerning religion?
Yes he might step in to calm some stuff down, but i don't think he would get directly involved in "this is what we do" when he's busy figuring out how to best murder orcs.

Valestrion wrote:
5) The King very unlikely to convert to Anethionism. They are not even trusted to be Stormwind Guards, and it probably wouldn't be good for Stormwind alliances with the other nations.

Well, if we had anybody playing the king we could ask him about what he thinks about Anatheionism and their guard rights, yeah?
Until then ill regard that as a decision made by the players on the council and therefore not directly lorebreaking in any way.

Valestrion wrote:
6) The King will be very aware that one of the biggest threats to the stability of Stormwind at this time will be the rise of opportunist religions encouraging civil unrest. SI:7 have probably already been given orders to watch the Chapter closely and the leaders of the Chapter would probably be arrested before they even got to the Council chamber to start making demands.

As i said earlier, might be he's busy, might be he dosen't give a fuck, might be he likes Anatheionism, who knows he's a npc.

Bottom line is that this seems more like you not wanting to get Disciples into any situation that might put them in a temporary negative light, and you seem to be trying to keep them out of lots of rp by doing it, is that really whats best for your guild?

In other news, i want to get the cartel involved, ill send people a PM later or something.

All valid routes for DoL and all worth considers. As for your question I feel it really depends on how roleplay plays out and on what terms Osmand is removed from the Minister chair (if he gets there). At this point in the planning process I see two sides of the spectrum when looking at it entirely from an IC standpoint.

At one end of the spectrum I'd see the Chapter becoming hated and feared even more than they currently are, which would be a lot. They'd be unlawfully attacked in the streets during their preachings if there was enough backup to boost success in such matters. They'd not be trusted and a lot of their IC community backing would go down the pan. They'd need to walk the streets heavily guarded and mainly pull back to Northshire entirely for a while where they may even see a few riots or attacks. Many may lose faith in Anethioneanism and turn against them, some may splinter into anti-Anethioneanism cults or groups and so on. Bottom line, the Chapter will have a Kingdom to deal with, not only Cultists.

This is worst case scenario from an Anethioneans standpoint.

On the other end of the spectrum the IC community may be baffled when the Chapter willingly hand the chair back over to Fortesgue once completing their investigation and deeming the Church now pure and their work done. Citizens and the IC community may scratch their heads and begin to see the Chapter in a new Light. Although still feared they may not be hated, their methods would be the talk of the realm for a while though their results may outshadow that. Perhaps the Church may even decide to share the Minister of Faith chair with Osmand for doing the kingdom a grand service and slowly they'd become more accepted than they are now. The rebellion that once stood against them, who'd on one end of the spectrum remain, drop their weapons when realising their cause was selfish and realising they truely did lack faith afterall.

And then there is everything in between. Sorry if this post isn't well written, I read it back and I'm now far too tired to make sense of it. I hope I got the message across.