Bash the Guards

There seems to be a common misconception that Stormwind Guard guilds take on the job solely to be the losing side in a variety of plots, that we are here to be the victims of your cunning plans. Here are a couple of examples of how guard bashing works and the logical consequences.

1. The guards get to hear about a band of cultists and, after some investigation, manage to track them to their base. A battle ensues, during which the cultists draw upon their superior dark powers to defeat the puny guards. The foolish guards should have known better than to take on the mighty Scions of Zog the Black. With the guards powerless to resist, the Scions of Zog spread their dominion, ultimately controlling all the lands to the gates of Stormwind. With no one to stand in their way, they assault Stormwind themselves, sacking it and forcing the population into servitude. The free nation of Stormwind ceases to exist. The Alliance is no more. The cultists have won. Time to move to a parallel dimension where the cultists aren't so invincible.

2. The guards manage to arrest a backstreet mugger and lock him up in the cells pending a trial. But they didn't account for the mugger being such a clever chap. They should have searched every last fold of his clothes and shaved his head to find those various hiding places where he keeps a handly lockpick. These cells can't hold Agmar the Tricky. Come to think of it, they couldn't hold Boldot the Smart, or Migwell the Quick, or Stimcrank the Short, or any of the crafty Herbot family. The truth is, the cells are about as secure as a wet paper bag. There's really not much point in the guards even trying to hold prisoners. Perhaps a change in the law is needed so it isn't necessary. The Minister of Justice declares that, in future, all trials will take place before an arrest is made. It's not ideal as the accused isn't able to defend himself, but when there's no way to hold prisoners, there's really no choice. It's much easier to move straight to the execution.

Please try to keep your RP with the Guard guilds realistic. Try to remember that the Guards have a role too, and look for the spirit of the story, rather than the loopholes.

Valestrion, GM of the Disciples of Light

I think this works both ways. Without dilvuging into sarcasm, I think guards also need to understand that criminals and cultists shouldn't be so easy to track. Often more than not, the bad guy loses. It may be realistic to kill one, but does that better the RP? 9/10 out of ten, you'll just piss someone off. So yes, there is some power play at hand - but then again, I'm afraid your position leaves you in a hypocritical situation as someone who abuses power telling others not to is a tad unfair.

My main concern with guard RP is how much RP is given to the prisoner. "Well, don't do the crime if you can't do the time" may be your first thought and it is a wrong one when it comes to RP. Don't arrest the prisoner if you can't take on the responsibility of rping with him. If you don't think that is your responsibility, don't play a guard. I stand firmly by this as I've seen it a fair amount (Nifty waited a month before getting a trial. A month.)

As someone who has been on both sides of the coin, guard and prisoner. Both need improving.

Both sides have a valid point.

I'll just put it here. Many guards / law-RPers seem that it's best to kill the cultist/criminal "because they were stupid enough to get caught". In a roundabout, once the criminal/bad guy is caught and killed, the 'good' guys complain there's no bad guys.

Just putting that out here. /discuss

I was only in that cell for 3 days and I had Brick and Dunmont for company but fuck me, I was on the verge of losing my mind IRL.

Im with the heels on this. Alliance DB does not give enough room to cultists or bad guys, with the acceptation of the Cartel and Brai brai (who is the most evil :p)

Making RP is the point not some game of crime and punishment when Justice always wins.

Lexgrad wrote:Im with the heels on this. Alliance DB does not give enough room to cultists or bad guys, with the acceptation of the Cartel and Brai brai (who is the most evil :p)

Making RP is the point not some game of crime and punishment when Justice always wins.

Thats because the 'bad guys' nine times out of ten deserve to be caught, bashed or locked up. The smart Bad guy is a mystery to all.

It's a fair point about prisoners being held for too long before a trial, which is why I raised the matter of a lack of magistrates at Stormwind Council this evening. As a result, I have been tasked with trying to find more. Coincidentally, Vaell, you were mentioned as a possible candidate to be a magistrate, but you are no longer considered a citizen of Stormwind.

As for the point about guards being able to track criminals too easily, I think that's at least partly because the bad guys we tend to be hunting want to be found because they don't get to bash the guards if the guards don't find them. Of course, it's also affected by the severity of the crime. When it's a major crime such as serial killing, it wouldn't make IC sense for us to take our time. Unrealistically, 90% of crimes we deal with involve murder. There is very little minor crime such as petty theft.

It should also be remembered that the Disciples are only supposed to be backup guards. Day to day policework isn't a focus for the Disciples, but we get pulled into it sometimes because there aren't any other guards around.

but you are no longer considered a citizen of Stormwind.

Since when?! Vaell's primary home is in Stormwind.

Since you joined the Kirin Tor. I'm told the Kirin Tor are not considered citizens of Stormwind.

Valestrion wrote:Since you joined the Kirin Tor. I'm told the Kirin Tor are not considered citizens of Stormwind.

Then why is Rufias Nargrandus allowed to be Minister of Magic in Stormwind? He's a member of the Kirin Tor. Likewise with former Minister of Magic Vezullia Astroloxia.

There's no lore source saying that a citizen of one nation automatically loses that citizenship upon joining the Kirin Tor.

Besides, Kirin Tor has authority over the mages of stormwind, so one would assume they're relevant for the kingdom..

On topic, I agree with Valestrion's post, speaking from the perspective of someone who has been part of guard organizations in RP before. Guard guilds perform one of the most tiring, thankless jobs out there. If they get the jump on you, then that's your own fault, not theirs, and you shouldn't be godmoding out of it just because you don't want to take consequences for failing to sufficiently cover up your crimes. If you don't want to sit in a jail cell for days or even weeks or months at a time, then don't get caught.

On the other hand, if the guards do make an honest IC mistake, then go ahead and capitalize on it--but make sure to keep them in the loop OOCly. That's essential.

I believe this is the same on both sides. I have been a lawful and a baddie.. The past fourteen days, I have had one character die (very perma death yes) to one cult. We had our entire online part of the order almost slaughtered by the other cult We imprisoned one baddie last night and we symbolicly declared her dead, threw her down a waterfall and of course we assume she is dead even if she is not.

Deaths and punishments is a line hard to balance.
With crimes of murder, its hard to not wish to kill the murderer, obviously. Just as its hard for the baddies to not kill the goodies.

So we kill them symbolicly.. At least the first time we catch them and they dont wish to die oocly.

We did kill one today though, a succubus infiltraiting us.

What we all should consider is: its not always about winning, and we cant all keep killing people on goingly.. Its very hard to keep swapping chars all the time, but...

If you are a lighty and walk alone into the lions lair...you kind of ask for it..

If you are baddy walking into the lighties lair.. you also kind of ask for it.

I am trying hard to find new tools to combat evil without being slaughtered icly speaking. And we are spending time on that because we do rp the fact that yes... We can die..

Cultists needs to be better at hiding. Not getting caught. Good guys needs to be better at not walking alone......

People who get caught, should in the very least take their punishment though. Or escape prior to being taken prisoner..

Thats my two copper.

As for time in prison and trials:

Trials if possible should be done as soon as possible. Preferably the same day or the day after. Some kind of authority should be made/given to ensure that.

Prisoners needs to be entertained, things can be arranged if that is not doable. Some people dont have a long list of alts to rp on.

On the other hand, if the guards do make an honest IC mistake, then go ahead and capitalize on it--but make sure to keep them in the loop OOCly. That's essential. = agree. ooc communication is the key.

And about the how's why's and law system Valestrion brainstorming is a good thing Work in progress.

Hmm, I remember being in the disciple cells for 6 weeks, and having to scream to get some attention, and hardly anything ever came of it. And I was a member of the disciples... I believe disciples gave me a total of 3 hours of RP...

If you don't want Angmar to be tricky, give them RP when they're online period.

Even 10 minutes in a cell without anyone to talk to is boring a fuck, because you're unable to create RP for yourself.

I understand guarding is boring, but if you don't want to do it, don't arrest people. It is the other side of the coin.

I actually experienced it the other way around. When I was in the Blazing Shields under Mansfield/Blaight I've had an excellent time of RP and I (and I believe most of my guildies) felt appriciated too. Guarding wasn't really boring either. We were really creative with our own RP and our RP with the prisoners. We stacked up prisoners, kept them busy too and when we had a handful of them we made some nice and enjoyable event. So yes, my time as a guard was a memorable one.

On the dark side however... We were screwed over countless times by the "good forces", in TDS, VoD too and other cults.

I'm not trying to blame anyone here. I suppose I'm just trying to make clear that shit happens on both sides and everyone has another experience on this regard.

Clear communication must exist between the officers of both sides (I believe there was an outstanding clear OOC communication a while back between guilds like FC/TDS/VoD/BS/Chapter and maybe DoL too. I can't really comment on it nowadays though. Lack of experience.)

So, although you obviously do have a point, I am sorry to say but a random rant like this post won't really help much, Valestrion. You'll have to make work of it, actively.

I have been mostly on the bad side, so to say, considering that none of my chars is 'evil' by nature, and honestly I get what Valestrion tries to say, having been the guards 'unwanted helping hand' for quite a while. OOC communication is needed, as well as it is needed a sense of responsability by players. I know it's a game, and that we're here for the fun, still if you choose to get an IC rank or title which is important and can affect heavily others' roleplay, you should be there up to the job or, at least, actively working on a substitute in case of your absence(you should anyway, unless you really don’t have a life), be it because you can’t log in or because you simply don’t feel up to roleplay in that moment/period. At the moment we know that we lack the people rping the authorities of Stormwind. I won’t tell against playing IC authorities here, but let’s say at least that the actual situation is one of the downsides of making them rped out.

About escaping: somebody said that we should think of the NPCs guards as IC, in an old thread. That is impossible to get, and honestly, as close to godemoting as a thing can get, if you’re roleplaying a guard(I know you killed x by the well at 10.00 p.m. ‘cause the NPC guard who walks with the lantern told me so). I’m all for taking most of the game mechanics IC, but then, we must do it completely. If we choose to ignore them on a degree, to make rp more interesting, then sure we can’t keep the NPC guard IC(or we could get them IC, but corrupted to the core). This said, if godemoting an escape is flat out wrong on the other side guards should always let people OOC a chance to flee, especially if we’re talking about powerful cultists and such. You can’t expect a cultist, or even a normal person, who knows that if he gets caught he gets executed not to fight to the edge of his abilities. If I’m warlock X and I get surrounded by guards, of course I’ll pour my most powerful spells to stop them and grant me a way to run away. That is not godemoting, is logic. On the other side, though, if you’re a simple thugh from, let’s say, the Cartel, and you’re surrounded by guards, a bit of smartness tells you to simply give in and surrender. With luck, you could be out soon with no or little punishment(OOC wise).

About prison breaks*: All my chars are on a grey area, some more, some less, and so I have paid my visits to the jail quite enough, and I’ve seen quite a bit of jail roleplay. Mention of honor here goes to the Regiment people who were able to provide rp to prisoners practically always. My waiting times in jail(a couple of times I had to wait around a week for a trial/Braiden; which is the same) and I never really got bored. Of course prison breaks can happen. They happen IRL, the of course can happen in wow. But, and there it is the important point, they must be rped out. And, imho, they should be rped out with the guards OOC consent, and realistically. Example: if both parties know that before you get a trial you have to wait months, there’s nothing in bad in deciding OOC for a way to let the prisoner escape(so to create more rp for both parties btw) which could be done simply forgetting the door open, or not locked, or perhaps through the old trick of the guard getting knocked out while he brings food to the prisoners(or through an epic attack by the Black Pearl crew-whoops, wrong movie). And, imho, prison breaks, or at least, attempts, should happen. It’s only realistic, especially considering that guards seem eager to get definitive and painful physical punishment on the criminals.

Last but not least, about executions: executions are overused in rp. I get the scenario, but still I think that it should be checked a bit more. Wow is a medieval place for many things, but is not for morals. You can’t execute a person without evidence of his crimes, and without a huge charge: manslaughtering is not such(unless repeated). Murder is, but only if not confessed and(regarding the scenario) only if done to a noble/important person. As a rule, execution(and there should be different kinds of execution for different crimes) should be a last resort, and never given to people who confess or hand themselves in, for many reasons: one, seems that Stormwind laws, lore-wise, don’t make a huge use of death punishment: from wowiki:

There are two fortifications that rise from the waters in Stormwind - both are prisons for the lawless and evil. The Stockade is accessible from the Mage Quarter and holds murderers, thieves, and corrupted stonemasons.[…]
A large number of dangerous criminals, including some criminal masterminds and Defias mercenaries, are currently being held in the stockade.

Two, and most important, kills rp to rpers. Both guards and prisoner. Guards, because kills a char which could create other storylines and more rp, to the prisoner because he is virtually forced to change char, after perhaps having given a lot of effort in that char(ofc doesn’t count if the char is an event only char, but even in that case, I’d be careful). As a rule, a char less is a storyline less to be roleplayed.
That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t play realistically, or that guards shouldn’t ‘win’, bt only that ‘winning’ is a matter of either side, and in general, a whole community matter. If guards find the way to stop all criminals IRL, it is great. If it happens in rp, it’s just a detriment.


(Sorry for the long wall of text, but I don't stop and write if I haven't a good amount to write )

*Yes, Felaren, I could write a book about it, but I’ll try to be short.

Hm. I play on all roles here. I play as an outright evil char, a grayshade one, and a real goodie.

On my Lightie:
I will say that I've been annoyed a couple of times by people begging to be imprisoned by doing stupid things right in front of my face, then whining ooc'ly that I arrested them. I haven't really been poweremoted however, and most of the baddies I've met, have been fun to rp with, and most of them rp good, and accept the consequences they are met with.

On my gray:
I've been annoyed by guards knowing who I am\lifestory when I had my face covered, clothing different, and hell, even been in a different shape when I did anything, or people wandering in, automatically knowing everything about us (the guild I am in) when no action or saying which would lead to suspicion much have been done. But hey, I've more or less accepted it. It happens, will always be wankers out there, but mostly I've been handled by good playing guards. I usually just roll with it to avoid too much drama. (with a few exceptions)

On my evil char:
She got caught red handed, I've accepted her to potentially die by execution, she is currently rotting in the prison. (almost literally) Not sure when trial will be though. Who handle those nowadays?
Guards have been good, all it takes is a whisper to the guild\guards if they are able to play, and they usually come if they are questing ect. I can't expect them to sit around all day, because there is only so long you would wanna listen to a half-mad dk rambling weird shit in reply to your questions.

All in all, as someone who play all three roles:

Quit whining. There is good stuff and bad stuff on both sides. There always will be. Some people watch too much movies, others think they are an anime-ninja. OOC talking over whispers usually work 90% of the time in my experience, but of course, I am still a fresh rpg'er who have only played a few months.

Starting a whisper with. "Omg that was op you idiot you cannot do that!" is not a diplomatic way of doing things. Don't rush to conclusions about the other player. Maybe they just don't know much better? Be nice about it, keep calm (say I who go *growl* a lot of the time, but I try)

Don't automatically always assume you'll win. Because you won't always. Guards should accept that they can get beaten, likewise by the baddies.

I personally love the rush of adrenaline every time a guard talk to me, even if I know that ic they cannot know me unless they are x-ray man or a mind reader.

Sit back, talk to people, enjoy the game.

Valestrion wrote:Initial Post

I'd just like to say I loved your post. It was a fun read

I have to agree with Longknife, together with Simaria.
Also the fact remains that RPing a guard is indeed a thankless job as was previously stated by quite the number of people.
Though if i have to admit, executions are something which both parties have to agree to aswell, before executing it...it does kill a ton of possible RP and so on. Like how Longknife stated.
Nothing else to add, both Simmy and Longknife pretty much said it.

Valestrion wrote:It's a fair point about prisoners being held for too long before a trial, which is why I raised the matter of a lack of magistrates at Stormwind Council this evening. As a result, I have been tasked with trying to find more.

I'll be back next week to conduct interviews and whatnot if candidates are found. I have been away for quite some time due to RL circumstance, it even became longer then expected.

There are two reasons wait times are generally long:

1. Lack of communication between guards and magistrates, at times I dont even know which characters are waiting for trials simply because none told me.
2. I cant magically conjure up more magistrates just because DoL for one has decided that every single crime should have a trial (which wasnt my intention when I made the magistrate system). The intention with trials was to have them non mandatory so we wouldnt be in a situation where it's just a pain for the ones being accused of crimes OOC.

At any rate, as I was saying I'll be back next week if nothing major turns up and I'll likely present the new/revised laws upon my return. I'll stop derailing this thread now and let the whole "NO U" conversation continue.

For the most part Dreth as a guard would flog the arrested in the street the same day and get them on their way. It is trial that slows this down maybe some kind of bail like conditions could be found to get the accused out and about quicker.

As a guard the worst thing I got was the bating then the "what did I do" as their friends RPd human right lawyers. That was more annoying than any cult was.

People are to willing to use guards and our laws as a proxy war against guilds they IC are at war with. Bait bait bait and when they snap run screaming to the guards with their eye witnessess. I wish guilds with problems with other guilds could just have a good clean scrap and then the guards wouldnt have to be dinnerladies and could do some real guarding.

And it isnt about winning... .ever no.... no no never, ever about winning! RP is about making more RP not winning or inforcing consequenses, it is about making more RP

Braiden it is very possible.. You will find yourself surprised when returning to wow Will not say more Just giving you a heads up

Just to add another opinion to the pot? If both guard and criminal are happy to sort out a situation between themselves - without including a third party (magistrate system, and so forth) - they should be within their rights to do so. As Braiden stated both in-game and within this topic, the trials were an optional feature which have mistakenly come to be considered as a neccesity.

Drustai wrote:Guard guilds perform one of the most tiring, thankless jobs out there.

This. So much this. We get so much shit for being guards, sure we can blame ourselves for roleplaying them but still, we keep the criminal RP at a fun level where you can get caught for commiting a crime. I eventually got bored and tired of roleplaying my guard char because of all the shit we constantly get.

Valestrion wrote:because there aren't any other guards around.

Funny you should mention that. Thanks to the Regiment's wonderful Major, we got excluded from RP and hated IC by the citizens. Now, being a guard that tries to keep the city safe for the citizens sake but gets insults thrown their way wherever they go can really get to you IRL. Not being able to actually do any RP when no citizens come to you for help, but instead going to the Disciples, ended up with me not wanting to play my guard character at all. I don't speak for all of the Regiment but I can guess some had a similar reason for not roleplaying.
I tried to keep the Regiment in the loop during the summer but gave up because of basically being pushed aside IC.