Bash the Guards

Khendran wrote:

Random partially thread-related stuff:

LOL

Helrog wrote:

John Helsythe-Amaltheria wrote:I can imagine in the WoW universe the guards head down and breaks all of his limbs and spits in his face, laughing.

Guards don't have to earn respect. Force respect =D The king would only praise you for kicking criminal-butt

We're not allowed to hurt the prisoners, at all. Doing so will get us suspended and we might even end up in jail for assault. We're citizens of the kingdom aswell, same laws apply to us.

From the "hanging without trial" Regiment :p

In that case, perhaps resort to something more fun. Put a shackle on their neck with a long chain and have them do community services. Hoste a public humilitation event.

This, so much this! You guys have really no idea on how was punishment seen in history. It was public, it was humiliating, it was a show of power. Guards have, and had, and should have boundaries, but so prisoners. Guards' power isn't unlimited, but must be felt by the commoner and the criminal as such. You get insulted? Break one of his legs(not a true issue, in wow, especially consideriing that half the guards are light-wielders with the chance of healing almost completely such wounds) and at the same time the char, and by reflection, the player, has a consequence on his behavour(can't escape in any proper way). Guards are meant to have feelings and to be respected.

The lack of respect IC towards the guards happens before 1. the guards were played in a way that a people wanted to become a criminal only because the guards in all honesty deserved only IC to be spat on 2. Guards didn't behave as guards at all. They get respect by people, prisoners too, if they earn it. If their results are shown. And if they show people what happens if they don't abide to the laws. Public announcements of punishments, public humiliations of criminals were the bread and butter of medieval justice system(and not only that). Roleplay it, schedule it. It's way more interesting than swift executions, and gives more rp to everyone, not only guards and prisoners. This said, guards, especially Lighties, should be nice to prisoners, especially if not yet trialed. But that thing must be mutual. If it is not, you have the hilt of the sword, right? Give people the reason to fear you, to respect you, and they will.

I think the main thing people overlook is that we only RP for fun... Criminal + evil rp is fun, whether it be cliché or in depth, it doesn't matter. Leaving someone to sit in a cell and take some sort of OOC punishment for their character's position isn't fun.

I think when you arrest someone, you take on the responsibility to RP with that person. Disagree? Don't play a guard. It is like playing a councillor and not showing up to council. This is a community where roles which have responsibility should only be taken by those that can handle them.

Then you have the case, this man is evil, I am busy in my current RP and arresting him will cause disruption to my ongoing story (for example), in which case you should OOCly contact the person via a whisper and explain that if you were to arrest them, you would not be able to give them the time of day they require. Then you can come up with something like the person getting away, or being put under watch etc. There are so many ways around simply throwing someone in a cell to rot.

Role-play should not be as close to reality as possible, it is a form of creative escapism and is there for us to entertain one another, along with ourselves in the process, and create stories and flourish in the lore we're all fond of. Neglecting another RPer by chucking him in a cell and not bothering with him makes me question if said person should be allowed to be a guard in the first place. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I see it happening a lot.

The trial system is a bit dull because it is slow. Just a few suggestions that guards could give prisoners instead of "cell dwelling";
- A fine.
- Manual Labour
- Service in the Alliance army.
- Conviscating of (X)
- Lashings, loss of fingers or hands.
- Branding.

I could write a long list but I'm sure you get the point, there are plenty of ways to speed up the process and make it fun for both parties.

Longknife/Decurius wrote:

In that case, perhaps resort to something more fun. Put a shackle on their neck with a long chain and have them do community services. Hoste a public humilitation event.

This, so much this! You guys have really no idea on how was punishment seen in history. It was public, it was humiliating, it was a show of power. .

I studied punishment and torture in history, it was all about pain. But since most people are immune to pain ingame I will be using humiliation instead!

The problem with the trial system is that we are relying on Braiden too much, so we'll need to improvise and dish out our own punishments for stupid crimes people do.

There isn't much arresting going on at the moment because people are out doing their own thing and we are missing the point in Vales rant. People seem to be master pick-lock-smiths, raid boss powers and such to avoid arrest. Which brings me to another point, what boundaries do we have with peoples class 'moves'. I thought It was only priests who dealt with mind destroying powers, but it seems like mages have the same abilities. I understand Warlocks and priests having similar moves, but in my mind Priests were limited to mind moves, Mages to elemental powers...whats the limit?

Vaell wrote:I think the main thing people overlook is that we only RP for fun... Criminal + evil rp is fun, whether it be cliché or in depth, it doesn't matter. Leaving someone to sit in a cell and take some sort of OOC punishment for their character's position isn't fun.

Indeed, I get the impression that people genuinely want to punish people for being criminals "dont do the crime then" arguments are really not the point of RP. I remember talking to a "racial guild" guard who ooc told me that they were the best guards because they kicked a "criminal guild" out of their city where as SW let them set up here. Yet SW had a Criminal guild, RP, communication ooc with the criminals and the other city had guards walking about doing nothing (ultimately it was a dead city for RP barring an event). Lets not make the same mistakes as that "Racial guild", Criminal/guard RP is a team who need to cooperate, there is no "win scenario"

Then you have the case, this man is evil, I am busy in my current RP and arresting him will cause disruption to my ongoing story (for example), in which case you should OOCly contact the person via a whisper and explain that if you were to arrest them, you would not be able to give them the time of day they require. Then you can come up with something like the person getting away, or being put under watch etc. There are so many ways around simply throwing someone in a cell to rot.

Thats fair enough comment too. Dont be the guard on the power trip, give warnings "move on citizen". I do know some people have to bate and kinda force you to Arrest them ic but dont sweat it, in the cells you can talk to them, maybe show them a better way. Dont just ignore them because they "offended your right to only RP how you want".

The trial system is a bit dull because it is slow. Just a few suggestions that guards could give prisoners instead of "cell dwelling";
- A fine.
- Manual Labour
- Service in the Alliance army.
- Conviscating of (X)
- Lashings, loss of fingers or hands.
- Branding.

I could write a long list but I'm sure you get the point, there are plenty of ways to speed up the process and make it fun for both parties.

The guards have all of this at the moment Vaell, the real trouble is the guards want to execute everyone and cant get away with it without trial mostly and people want to use the law system as a weapon to hurt other RPers ic.

Lexgrad wrote:

Vaell wrote:I think the main thing people overlook is that we only RP for fun... Criminal + evil rp is fun, whether it be cliché or in depth, it doesn't matter. Leaving someone to sit in a cell and take some sort of OOC punishment for their character's position isn't fun.

I remember talking to a "racial guild" guard who ooc told me that they were the best guards because they kicked a "criminal guild" out of their city where as SW let them set up here. Yet SW had a Criminal guild, RP, communication ooc with the criminals and the other city had guards walking about doing nothing (ultimately it was a dead city for RP barring an event). Lets not make the same mistakes as that "Racial guild", Criminal/guard RP is a team who need to cooperate, there is no "win scenario"

This is very familiar

Lexgrad wrote:
the real trouble is the guards want to execute everyone and cant get away with it without trial mostly and people want to use the law system as a weapon to hurt other RPers ic.

No they don't.

Wulfgnar wrote:

Lexgrad wrote:
the real trouble is the guards want to execute everyone and cant get away with it without trial mostly and people want to use the law system as a weapon to hurt other RPers ic.

No they don't.

Yeah the point of Samian wanting to execute whoever he wanted was one of the main themes of him withdrawing from council RP.

The second point is something that happens all the time, people poking and bating others until there is a "law break" then that person running to the guards and demanding action. Talk to the Antlions, I know they were subjected to that shity form of RP alot.

Just to note something since I just came across this topic and something that Aadaria said which I wanted to correct, Valestrion suggested a restructuring of the Council during the meeting and discussed some nice ideas on how to go about with it, nothing about denouncing was discussed or raised, so let's not turn the idea into something it is not. /nod

Lexgrad wrote:the real trouble is the guards want to execute everyone and cant get away with it without trial mostly and people want to use the law system as a weapon to hurt other RPers ic.

I only know of one guard that wants to do this. One.
But sure, blame all the guards because of one person's actions and opinions.

Well, I don't think it was my suggestion, Geldar, but I do think there's a case for doing something about the Council. I'm working up to a post about it. I fully agree with your point about denouncing the Council, though. Though there are some exceptions, the main problem with the Council has been inactivity rather than corruption.

I thought It was only priests who dealt with mind destroying powers, but it seems like mages have the same abilities. I understand Warlocks and priests having similar moves, but in my mind Priests were limited to mind moves, Mages to elemental powers...whats the limit?

Shadow magic can be used by the darker willed magi, mind-controlling powers and the like are part of the Arcane and therefore a corrupt magi could use said magic.

In fact, a shadow priest and mage are closer than a Warlock and priest

Valestrion wrote:Well, I don't think it was my suggestion, Geldar, but I do think there's a case for doing something about the Council. I'm working up to a post about it. I fully agree with your point about denouncing the Council, though. Though there are some exceptions, the main problem with the Council has been inactivity rather than corruption.

The suggestion of the oversight of the Magistrates and the public election came from you from what I recall, and I am making sure the information is correct before the pitchforks are drawn.

before the pitchforks are drawn.

Grab him!

Strangely, the suggestion of the Magistrates being overseen by the Disciples came from Melissa. I may have mentioned public election but as interpretation of what others were saying rather than as my own idea. I don't actually think that magistrates should be elected. Given that half the population of Stormwind seem to be criminals, it probably wouldn't be wise to let them choose the magistrates. I'm not sure if I thought about that at the time we were discussing it in Council or if I realised it later though.

I suspect that you were so shocked at the Chapter coming up with a reasonable idea, that you just assumed that it came from me.

Valestrion wrote:
I suspect that you were so shocked at the Chapter coming up with a reasonable idea, that you just assumed that it came from me.

If this is true it is completely understandable.

I don't see the denouncement of the Council as an improvement to Guard RP in any way, as it'd take away the only authority above them (excluding the NPC King here, because really, how often would the guard RPers take him into consideration?) and as such, give them ultimate rights to do whatever they want, which in turn would encourage city-wide corruption if the officers and GM's of the guild jump aboard the corruptionwagon.

I see this as more as a bunch of problems that all derive from the fact that the guard RP has come a long way since the times that everyone seems to agree were the Golden Age. Whether that was an improvement or not, I can't tell: drama has surrounded guard RP as long as I can remember, and changes have always been demanded.

In my mind, the ideal guard guild would be loyal to the Council, have free hands to deal with lesser crimes, only contact the Magistrates for a trial when a more serious one has happened, and use creative punishments for the ones they can handle themselves. Cell time punishes the criminal for RPing a criminal, when it should be the character punished for commiting a crime, so it's not a creative or a productive punishment. They'd keep close OOC communication with the criminal RPers and Council alike, they'd be supervised by the Ministries of Justice and Defence and to some extent, the Magistrates, but they should be punished ICly only, taking away guardrights should be the most extreme punishment you can dish out, for repeated offenses despite urges to cut the corruption, given by the system.

Basically, I want the Blazing Shields, mildly revised to fit the new systems in-place. I'm biased, sue me.

Khendran wrote:I don't see the denouncement of the Council as an improvement to Guard RP in any way, as it'd take away the only authority above them (excluding the NPC King here, because really, how often would the guard RPers take him into consideration?) and as such, give them ultimate rights to do whatever they want, which in turn would encourage city-wide corruption if the officers and GM's of the guild jump aboard the corruptionwagon.

I see this as more as a bunch of problems that all derive from the fact that the guard RP has come a long way since the times that everyone seems to agree were the Golden Age. Whether that was an improvement or not, I can't tell: drama has surrounded guard RP as long as I can remember, and changes have always been demanded.

In my mind, the ideal guard guild would be loyal to the Council, have free hands to deal with lesser crimes, only contact the Magistrates for a trial when a more serious one has happened, and use creative punishments for the ones they can handle themselves. Cell time punishes the criminal for RPing a criminal, when it should be the character punished for commiting a crime, so it's not a creative or a productive punishment. They'd keep close OOC communication with the criminal RPers and Council alike, they'd be supervised by the Ministries of Justice and Defence and to some extent, the Magistrates, but they should be punished ICly only, taking away guardrights should be the most extreme punishment you can dish out, for repeated offenses despite urges to cut the corruption, given by the system.

Basically, I want the Blazing Shields, mildly revised to fit the new systems in-place. I'm biased, sue me.

Couldn't have said it better. WTB Blazing Shields, plox?

Khendran wrote:I don't see the denouncement of the Council as an improvement to Guard RP in any way, as it'd take away the only authority above them (excluding the NPC King here, because really, how often would the guard RPers take him into consideration?) and as such, give them ultimate rights to do whatever they want, which in turn would encourage city-wide corruption if the officers and GM's of the guild jump aboard the corruptionwagon.

I see this as more as a bunch of problems that all derive from the fact that the guard RP has come a long way since the times that everyone seems to agree were the Golden Age. Whether that was an improvement or not, I can't tell: drama has surrounded guard RP as long as I can remember, and changes have always been demanded.

In my mind, the ideal guard guild would be loyal to the Council, have free hands to deal with lesser crimes, only contact the Magistrates for a trial when a more serious one has happened, and use creative punishments for the ones they can handle themselves. Cell time punishes the criminal for RPing a criminal, when it should be the character punished for commiting a crime, so it's not a creative or a productive punishment. They'd keep close OOC communication with the criminal RPers and Council alike, they'd be supervised by the Ministries of Justice and Defence and to some extent, the Magistrates, but they should be punished ICly only, taking away guardrights should be the most extreme punishment you can dish out, for repeated offenses despite urges to cut the corruption, given by the system.

Basically, I want the Blazing Shields, mildly revised to fit the new systems in-place. I'm biased, sue me.

More or less what there is at the moment ^^ Apart from the SWR now working with an NPC not the Council.

Lexgrad wrote:More or less what there is at the moment ^^ Apart from the SWR now working with an NPC not the Council.

Marcus Jonathan is dead as far as I know, so we're either working under his replacement or we're back with the Council, I'm not really sure.

Lexgrad wrote:
More or less what there is at the moment ^^ Apart from the SWR now working with an NPC not the Council.

And being anti-Council in general from what I understand, 'cause it seems to always be what the cool kids do. That's a problem in my eyes, because the NPC can't correct them, meaning the populace of Stormwind has two choices if they feel they've been wronged by the guards. Either ignore them, or riot against them. Former option is shit for everyones RP, latter is somewhat non-sensical ICly, because you're rioting against the citys sanctioned guards, and noone can control the NPC, they can't decide whether he approves of the Regiments behaviour or not. The Council in other hand is a governing body consisting of players, that you can interact with, they can punish and guide the guards if need be. That NPC's greatest feat of interaction is saluting you back.

My dwarf got arrested once because the Regiment found him sleeping on a crimescene. I was down there for like 30 minutes and it was pretty fun.

Issue with using an NPC(it's almost a cross-posting) IC is that you, in the end can't really control him(not to mention he could get by lore killed and you wouldn't know). And if you can, or you create one as a sort of ultimate authority, you can never appeal to him.

I agree with Wulfgnar that we need more Magistrates(possibly at least one non corrupted/cultist/suspected to be cultist) and more independency of guards for little crimes. Independency which should not, though, be translated as powerplay on other rpers, at least OOC.

I studied punishment and torture in history, it was all about pain.

Torture was, absolutely. It was meant to make the culprit confess(in Roman Law the culprit couldn't be deemed guilty without a confession). But the final punishment wasn't. It had usually more symbolic and religious, and extremely public, meanings and messages to bring. Partly, SW has not the same background(afaIk, Varian isn't King by divine right), still the 'scare part' I think should be roleplayed more. And Rae would be a great char for it, imho
But since most people are immune to pain ingame I will be using humiliation instead

I only know of one guard that wants to do this. One.

I dunno Helrog, OOC. IC though, I must say that the late impression Regiment gave was exactly that. And that's why in the end everybody began to avoid the Regiment, thinking that, if caught for any crime, even petty, or even confessing and try to make the situation better, they would have been executed anyway. You can't ask people to respect guards IC if they think they'll get executed anyway. If I have choice 1-Respect people who are going to kill me and choice 2-Disrespect and insult people who are going to kill me, IC only oe of the two makes real sense.
I rped the situation myself. There were all the reasons to execute my char(more or less) and he got arrested and secluded in the jail for an hour, before the execution was made. And he knew IC what was going to happen. Being cool and nice wouldn't have made any sense, especially considering that said char riskes his hide for the Regiment more times than he could count.

As I said, it's the IC impression which counts, in rp. If you as guard take IC insults as OOC ones, your issue. But if you, instead of roleplaying the guard, play the Gestapo(which was more or less the direction Samian was going to bring the Regment towards IC) you can't really complain if people IC and OOC tend to avoid you.*


*To make this clear: I loved Regiment rp, had great moments with all of them and with Samian too, this criticims is a posteriori one.

Longknife/Decurius wrote:Issue with using an NPC(it's almost a cross-posting) IC is that you, in the end can't really control him(not to mention he could get by lore killed and you wouldn't know).

Wowpedia, Marcus Jonathan wrote:
Tides of War
When Jaina Proudmoore called for help defending Theramore Isle against the Horde, Marcus Jonathan came to lend his support. He was the main organizer of the defense of Theramore. He was killed when Garrosh Hellscream detonated a mana bomb, which destroyed the city.

So it already happened, though we do know about it. But my dislike to using him as the ultimate authority for the guild is exactly that noone can control him, like you said.