Bash the Guards

Longknife/Decurius wrote:

I only know of one guard that wants to do this. One.

I dunno Helrog, OOC. IC though, I must say that the late impression Regiment gave was exactly that. And that's why in the end everybody began to avoid the Regiment, thinking that, if caught for any crime, even petty, or even confessing and try to make the situation better, they would have been executed anyway. You can't ask people to respect guards IC if they think they'll get executed anyway. If I have choice 1-Respect people who are going to kill me and choice 2-Disrespect and insult people who are going to kill me, IC only oe of the two makes real sense.
I rped the situation myself. There were all the reasons to execute my char(more or less) and he got arrested and secluded in the jail for an hour, before the execution was made. And he knew IC what was going to happen. Being cool and nice wouldn't have made any sense, especially considering that said char riskes his hide for the Regiment more times than he could count.

As I said, it's the IC impression which counts, in rp. If you as guard take IC insults as OOC ones, your issue. But if you, instead of roleplaying the guard, play the Gestapo(which was more or less the direction Samian was going to bring the Regment towards IC) you can't really complain if people IC and OOC tend to avoid you.*


*To make this clear: I loved Regiment rp, had great moments with all of them and with Samian too, this criticims is a posteriori one.

So we've come to a conclusion of whose fault it is? Excellent. I can now die in peace.
No offence if you read this Samian, but you fucked up big time.

I've been tracking this thread since the initial post since I had a hunch that it's title would be what it would turn into and I was surprised when it even involved bull around my very own character.

For one, I dont think that the regiment is getting avoided at all. We are inactive yes (which makes the shitstorm even more unexpected)
I myself behind my pc want to give criminals a chance and not shit all over their rp and go out of my way to give them a chance on doing so, actively whispering to the point where I can hardly keep track (It is already quite hard to keep track of all the things you run into as a guard)

The reason my character doesnt fancy the council is because he does not like the favortism(Nor does the player) he'd prefer a system where the people or atleast as many people as possible would vote their minister's in rather then friends picking friends. I know this would be hard to actually manage but that'd bring me to another point.
OOC standpoints having to get translated ICly. If your character is caught redhanded murdering his wife and childeren, practicing shadowmagic to enslave half the tavern, repeatedly plant bombs all over the city etc my Samian would want justice and in a timeset such as wow's I'd imagine it being an eye for an eye death on death I'm not going to have my character preach to have you put in an asylum or a friendly little detox project(Even though at every execution EVER I have always informed the person being executed that I can not EVER EVER EVER force death upon them, I've also mentioned this in about every other guard thread) simply because execution would seem harsh(which it aint)

I understand people having personal vendetta's against my character, he is controversial and fat but you should not translate it into such nonsense OOCly
Also the regiment is hardly active which is why this shitstorm is rather surprising to me

ps. Lessi I'd gkick you for so cheaply flinging poo my way but that would probably make me look gestapo, and apparently thats bad
pps. Lexgrad call me, no need to try and get my attention here
ppps. Stormwind's guard has a new NPC general already
pppps. No one represents me but myself

Call you? All I did was lay it out as it is buddy, I never called you a god emote killer as you can see in my posts. You have a problem with the council and ruined your guilds rep over it but I didnt point that out either. All I did is point out that the system that everyone keeps suggesting is already in place and isnt being used as guards for some reason want trials and Braiden rather than just dealing with stuff, your intransigence in guard/law matters being the worst.

"If your character is caught redhanded murdering his wife and childeren, practicing shadowmagic to enslave half the tavern, repeatedly plant bombs all over the city etc my Samian would want justice and in a timeset such as wow's I'd imagine it being an eye for an eye death on death I'm not going to have my character preach to have you put in an asylum or a friendly little detox project(Even though at every execution EVER I have always informed the person being executed that I can not EVER EVER EVER force death upon them, I've also mentioned this in about every other guard thread) simply because execution would seem harsh(which it aint)

Same thing goes for murderous guards, but letting any ic consequence for your chars ic choice was the council interfering with yo shit rather than any consequences. If you want to live by the sword of consequences for cultists/criminals then you should live by them when people come to Jarric with concerns. There is no ooc in that by the way, people came to Jarric and he used it as a political football. The only OOC is your OOC "omg I wont do what you tell me" towards the council and for that ooc reason you decided to answer to a mob.

PS Stop calling me.

Samian wrote:Lessi I'd gkick you for so cheaply flinging poo my way but that would probably make me look gestapo, and apparently thats bad

Telling someone they made a mistake is flinging poo nowadays?
It wasn't supposed to be an insult, hence the No offence. But oh well...

Valestrion wrote:Strangely, the suggestion of the Magistrates being overseen by the Disciples came from Melissa. I may have mentioned public election but as interpretation of what others were saying rather than as my own idea. I don't actually think that magistrates should be elected. Given that half the population of Stormwind seem to be criminals, it probably wouldn't be wise to let them choose the magistrates. I'm not sure if I thought about that at the time we were discussing it in Council or if I realised it later though.

I suspect that you were so shocked at the Chapter coming up with a reasonable idea, that you just assumed that it came from me.

THIS!!! <3 And Geldar I might have gotten you wrong but we did also speak of that aka you said you wer e not in favor of denouncing the council due to *incert talks*. You however said very clearly I believe (not direct quote) that if that was the wish then to gather the orders of stormwind to have the council denounced, with their backing support.

*Strangely, the suggestion of the Magistrates being overseen by the Disciples came from Melissa.*

So very true. And why is simple. Magistrates, councillors can and will get corrupted.. People gain so much if they do manage to corrupt one.. Gain so much if they manage to become one as a criminal regardless of what kind. This is why someone needs to oversee them.. Check them regularly. Why?

1 It would make it so much harder to get or remain in a positon when corrupted.
2. It makes some more rp.
3. No matter how fun it is being corrupt or criminal. It is a bit of a pain for those around who may know this... but cant prove it... and in the history of our server, we should have implemented regular checks and ability to remove people much more efficiently long ago Power being used in rp is = very good.
After months of nothing being done about anything in regards to it = not soo good....
4. So Disciples checking, over seeing the councillors and magistrates = I would...... LOVE IT ;D Absolutley love it! ;D

As if the bishop was declared a user of fel -- I strongly believe someone... among the church of holy light would indeed... have him checked inside out

Aadaria-Ioanna wrote:So very true. And why is simple. Magistrates, councillors can and will get corrupted.. People gain so much if they do manage to corrupt one.. Gain so much if they manage to become one as a criminal regardless of what kind. This is why someone needs to oversee them..

Do correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that was SI:7 do? And Jarric being minister of internal affairs also investigates these matters? I mean sure the guards can investigate any accusations of criminal activity posed against anyone, but from what I understood SI:7 working along with Jarric in some cases keep tabs on council members to a certain degree.

And sure a fair few members of the council have been a little inactive as of late, as far as I know Geldar has been the only constantly active council member for some weeks now. But is it really right to try and "denounce" something because people have had things to deal with RL for a while? I mean I know for a fact that some of you have OOCly wanted rid of the council the council for over a year and a half now (for reasons I may or may not know) and it seems an awful lot like a few people getting a little busy for a few weeks is the perfect excuse for your characters to want the same thing you have OOCly for a while. If something doesn't work and is broken, then sure, fix it. You've tried that and it doesn't work, scrap it in favor of something new. But from what I've seen in this thread, almost all of the suggestions are already in place, people just don't use them.

As for the whole declaring the bishop a fel user thing, I do think they would need some sort of proof to be taken seriously at all in that matter. Someone going "QQ I don't like that man, he is corrupt and using Fel." wouldn't be taken seriously without any sort of evidence or proof, surely.

As for the whole declaring the bishop a fel user thing, I do think they would need some sort of proof to be taken seriously at all in that matter. Someone going "QQ I don't like that man, he is corrupt and using Fel." wouldn't be taken seriously without any sort of evidence or proof, surely.

- My point with this being: If you use fel... There is ways to find this out... Hence, a check, which shouldnt take a too much aweful lot of work. = very reasonable:) And such checks should be a regular thing for those high up who can use magic.

And incase anyone gets confused: This is an example. There is no one declaring a bishop a fel user to my knowledge.

Something needs to be done about the council, regardless. Either it needs to be replaced with something else, or the inactive members need to be removed and the positions opened up for new, active players.

As for getting removed based on accusations of crimes rather than proof... that is simply absurd. If you can't find any proof that an authority figure is corrupt, then too bad, they're staying there. Getting proof isn't hard, you just need to put some work into actually acquiring it.

Drustai wrote:Something needs to be done about the council, regardless. Either it needs to be replaced with something else, or the inactive members need to be removed and the positions opened up for new, active players.

This. Its fine that people have real lifes, but if people are gone for a longer period of time, that ruins for the others who is present. And those in need of them.

We lack magistrates and active council members. The latter not a rare thing, a more common as of late.
4 ish magistrates = fine.. Thats 4 needed people, who does not need to be active all the time.
Council members: should be main chars, should also have a 2nd hand.

So if Geldar would be gone for a meeting or knew he would be gone for a month.. Then he had an appointed 2nd hand.

Things doesnt have to be complicated to function. My point however being:

There is a lack in players willing - able to attend the same days as the rest - capable.
And having two different parts: magistrates /council. And try to fill all those positions..Will be hard...

And if the council does remain and new people are elected then the least change should be:

Those present on the meetings makes the calls. No matter if this or that minister isnt present.. ?
Or in the least do that on the 2nd meeting the person fails to show?

Being a minister of the stormwind council to me is very much like being a guild leader. It comes with a price, time use, devotion.
If you are not around your guild falls apart.. Or someone else takes over.. And all creds to Geldar for logging for more or less every meeting for so long. That is good. But... This brings the second problem. Those who are just reachable on tuesdays for council meetings, are not very present, reachable in the community. Which is why I said earlier.. It should be peoples main characters... So they actually are seen within the regular roleplay in Stormwind.. Someone who can then be gone from a meeting because the cases related mainly to him/her, would then still be possible to be reached out with.


But in the end absence is the most destructive thing there is. So if we keep having a council, they should have 2nd hands.. and that second hand should be taking over in the absence of the first..

Just for the sake of clarification because I enjoy clarify, the word I used was restructuring the Council and/or disbanding it which was used by Valestrion, not denouncing. There is a very, very clear difference between the two when it comes to meaning.

I agree a change is required, be it in structure, members or the entirety of the organization to make it work again, although I need to note that to this moment (Excluding the current happenings) there has not been a single corrupt minister because of OOC oversight from his other members, or it was like at least until the new people joined in Cataclysm, we simply did not allow questionable people to join. But finding willing people, regardless on which day, will be hard. As of currently, it is either real life, lack of conviction, better things to do that make people not show up. And there is that other thing, that made most of the old members leave or go inactive, the direction of the Council itself. Back in the day or at least when I first came on it, it was about hosting and organizing community events as well as problem resolution.

And over the years thanks to some and others it was turned to a circus where everyone and anyone could come and throw his petty fits on it, bring their drama, cause drama, murder someone, die themselves, explode, do something other that is pants-on-fire stupid. And the direction was then slowly moved into dealing with those things every week, and over time that got tiresome and you can see the results now.

I mean I know for a fact that some of you have OOCly wanted rid of the council the council for over a year and a half now (for reasons I may or may not know) and it seems an awful lot like a few people getting a little busy for a few weeks is the perfect excuse for your characters to want the same thing you have OOCly for a while. If something doesn't work and is broken, then sure, fix it.

That is very true, Humphry, people love to hate us so they are ready to do anything or use any justification to make it happen, we've seen it before over the years as well. You cannot fathom on how petty they can get and to what lengths they are going to go, quite some even going as far as to use the methods they claim we are using. But, even if its true and they are trying currently, well, good luck with that. They picked a moment to do it when it does not matter anymore and no one really cares about it.

And its funny, in a way, we never really had any constructive criticism brought to us aside of a few individuals on our boards here. We never really had any incoming communication with people who may have concerns with us, even though we have a number of ways/places to talk and address issues, it was always the case that there is a problem brewing for a while and we only learn about it when it exploded in our faces, and was then painted as our fault because we lacked the psychic powers to read minds and/or look into the future.

But then again, it isn't really different than what it was back a few years ago, although people stepped forth when there was a problem then, rather than do what Humhpry said they are doing. But it is an underlying problem, in a way because instead of people putting all that effort behind constructive and positive change, you see what its placed in as you say it yourself.

So I personally believe that positive focus must be in place and none of that sleight of hand stuff: Communication, event management & planning and less drama brought forth, that is the changes that's really needed, and when it happens the people will gather round' again. A re-focus if you wish to call it, but that cannot happen along with what Humphry said it was happening so people actually need to work together and not against eachother, especially in the current state of this realm (And none of that "ITS GOOD!!111one" because it's just not). /2c

Aadria makes a good few points.

1. Active Councillors.
A few weeks is a bit of an understatement, Humphry. I like Braiden but he isn't very active. There are a few others who take long gaps and to be honest, it shouldn't matter if their house burnt down or an exam was coming up, we're not here to focus on that, we need people who can devote the time to it when necessary. Like I said about guards, Councillors have a responsibility.

2. Main Characters/secondary character.
Understandable if you don't want your main as the pompous councillor, but the reason it is important is pretty much the same as my point above. You need to show devotion ICly and OOCly for such an important role.

3. Appointing backups.
This should be done first, whilst we're in the position and then again when the council is rearranged or fixed. It allows the flow of RP to continue even in their absence.

Though these points have already been mentioned, I felt it was necessary to show I agree!

We should be understanding that sometimes RL things come up and Councillors can't be there. Geldar has missed a couple of weeks recently but that's fine because he has been there nearly every week for as long as I can remember. On the other hand, the others have been missing more often than they have been there. That's where the problem lies.

However, while Councillors being inactive is disappointing and we have had a couple of weeks where people have turned up for Council to find that there are no Councillors there, the lack of magistrates is a more immediate problem as it's causing a backlog of prisoners held in the cells. To exacerbate this problem, when we look to see who should deal with the problem of a lack of magistrates, we find that the Chief Magistrate is one of the absent, and when we look to see who should deal with the Chief Magistrate being absent, we find that the Minister of Justice is the same person. It is a conflict of interest when the Minister of Justice is also the Chief Magistrate.

By the way, I think we are getting off topic when we start discussing the potential restructuring of the Council in this thread. The purpose of this thread was a plea to those roleplaying with guards to consider realism in this roleplaying, and to remember that the guards are there to have fun too. I'd say that the lack of magistrates is relevant because long term imprisonment of prisoners pending trial is a valid observation as to why law and order RP is less than ideal at present.

Then I'd refer you to my previous long post about other forms of punishment for prisoners. Trial should only be used in cases where it isn't clear if they're innocent or guilty. Not every bloody prisoner should have a trial!

A trial is also needed to decide the punishment for those who plead guilty, although perhaps we could consider relaxing that for medium level crimes. The guards should not be deciding whether or not to execute an prisoner who pleads guilty. The reason for this is that it safeguards against executions of prisoners on the grounds of confessions obtained by force.

Have same thing as in Senate:
Miss 3 meetings and a new one is appointed in your place. No excuses, active players are needed. That way the Guard RP can flow slightly more efficiently, since there always will be someone active for example who handles the law and trials etc.

I have been absent alot longer then planned but it has still been very possible to communicate with me via pms here. Even prior to my leave there just hasnt been enough intrest in the magistrate system overall (read very few to no people voulenteering/applying to be magistrates). If there was more it would obviously be easier but everyone seems to complain rather then pitch in and do the work. When it comes to the council has not been up to standards even when I was there, inactivity is very wide spread HOWEVER I rarely see appications to the council either, even to empty positions. Something needs to be done on this front, I got some suggestions and there has been suggestions a while back internally in the council but that's a discussion for another thread.

Never the less I'll be back as soon as tomorrow to start working at solving the magistrate situation again, if you have characters you think would be suitable feel free to drop a pm in my inbox.

Thread seems to have split into 3/4 actual topics, so;

1. Roleplay realisticly with the guards
Perfectly reasonable so long as it's returned. OOcly demanding incriminating confessions from guild-members under threat of gkick? Not good. Instantly summoning Guardians of Light, icly, in a single emote to up your numbers? Also not good. Realism cuts both ways, I've lost count of how many times I've seen 'paladin' taken to mean 'immune to errything'.

This all relates to what I'm on about, an issue that from previous interactions you took a loss (a single jailbreak, which was; an inside job, with a key given, scouting etc beforehand, and diversion that drew away several men) and turned it into months of ooc and ic drama which made several people stop rp altogether. Surely that should never happen; as a result I'm not touching any similar jobs again with the Blades for the ooc fallout it had. Losses and gains need to stay ic, without the ooc drama or manipulation of ic actions.

2. How do we want the guards to 'work'/what punishments should they be able to dole out, etc
My only real note is that sometimes; crime's won't always be solved, happens all the time in real life. I have no problem at all with harsh penalties and harsh punishments, so long as they're based on some tangible proof or confession, and not along the lines of 'steve read sarah's mind and saw you do it ' 'Frank is a medium and interviewed the victim's ghost' both of which I've come across. Not to mention people resuerrecting their own characters to point fingers.

Those are all rather off topic, the main thing is, if a guard guild want to play with 'corruption', people will stop wanting to rp with them. For the simple fact that nobody wants to sacrifice an entire character, the time spent on it, etc, to boost a corruption sub-plot. Which is why people started going to DoL rather than SWR, it's not just a question of IC, as there's considerations like: How long will my character possibly be unplayable, or stuck in jail with limited roleplay, or how likely are they to be killed.
Whether it's justified or not, I don't know, I know SWR never killed without permission.

3/4: restructuring the council, the council's role, who the guards answer to;
Rather too long to go into here, and rather off-topic. Maybe a fresh thread for this would be in order.

Kittrina wrote:Thread seems to have split into 3/4 actual topics, so;

1. Roleplay realisticly with the guards
Perfectly reasonable so long as it's returned. OOcly demanding incriminating confessions from guild-members under threat of gkick? Not good. Instantly summoning Guardians of Light, icly, in a single emote to up your numbers? Also not good. Realism cuts both ways, I've lost count of how many times I've seen 'paladin' taken to mean 'immune to errything'.

This all relates to what I'm on about, an issue that from previous interactions you took a loss (a single jailbreak, which was; an inside job, with a key given, scouting etc beforehand, and diversion that drew away several men) and turned it into months of ooc and ic drama which made several people stop rp altogether. Surely that should never happen; as a result I'm not touching any similar jobs again with the Blades for the ooc fallout it had. Losses and gains need to stay ic, without the ooc drama or manipulation of ic actions.

In regards to said event, the thing that was the issue at the time was a lack of OOC communication. Breaking out of prison is fine if people are around, but when there are only a couple of people online - it spoils the immersion for all those who were offline at the time. A character could realistically be in the Garrison all day, but the IRL person is at work. Everyone knows the most busy time is past 19:00 in game, so planning things like a breakout before then is poor taste.

2. How do we want the guards to 'work'/what punishments should they be able to dole out, etc
My only real note is that sometimes; crime's won't always be solved, happens all the time in real life. I have no problem at all with harsh penalties and harsh punishments, so long as they're based on some tangible proof or confession, and not along the lines of 'steve read sarah's mind and saw you do it ' 'Frank is a medium and interviewed the victim's ghost' both of which I've come across. Not to mention people resuerrecting their own characters to point fingers.

Those are all rather off topic, the main thing is, if a guard guild want to play with 'corruption', people will stop wanting to rp with them. For the simple fact that nobody wants to sacrifice an entire character, the time spent on it, etc, to boost a corruption sub-plot. Which is why people started going to DoL rather than SWR, it's not just a question of IC, as there's considerations like: How long will my character possibly be unplayable, or stuck in jail with limited roleplay, or how likely are they to be killed.
Whether it's justified or not, I don't know, I know SWR never killed without permission.

I do agree with this point. It works in a novel, but because you're putting individuals in prison and neglecting them, it makes for more of an annoyance than fun - which RP should always be.

Vaell wrote:

Kittrina wrote:Thread seems to have split into 3/4 actual topics, so;

1. Roleplay realisticly with the guards
Perfectly reasonable so long as it's returned. OOcly demanding incriminating confessions from guild-members under threat of gkick? Not good. Instantly summoning Guardians of Light, icly, in a single emote to up your numbers? Also not good. Realism cuts both ways, I've lost count of how many times I've seen 'paladin' taken to mean 'immune to errything'.

This all relates to what I'm on about, an issue that from previous interactions you took a loss (a single jailbreak, which was; an inside job, with a key given, scouting etc beforehand, and diversion that drew away several men) and turned it into months of ooc and ic drama which made several people stop rp altogether. Surely that should never happen; as a result I'm not touching any similar jobs again with the Blades for the ooc fallout it had. Losses and gains need to stay ic, without the ooc drama or manipulation of ic actions.

In regards to said event, the thing that was the issue at the time was a lack of OOC communication. Breaking out of prison is fine if people are around, but when there are only a couple of people online - it spoils the immersion for all those who were offline at the time. A character could realistically be in the Garrison all day, but the IRL person is at work. Everyone knows the most busy time is past 19:00 in game, so planning things like a breakout before then is poor taste.

It was mostly crossed wires; it had been arranged with 3 disciples, so we thought they knew about it; we whispered the 'rescuee' beforehand, to check if the timing would be okay, and they confirmed for a go-ahead- but when we came to it, it turned out nobody knew, and DoL were understandably aggravated; I don't think that excuses the behaviour that followed, though.
It's the past now, lessons were learned on our side (mostly; jailbreaks are crap and we'll never attempt them again and never take anyone's word for permission other than officers/gl's) and hopefully on DoL's too.

The regiment is not shunned/avoided or w/e the regiment is simply inactive and at this rate I have no intention of putting in effort again

The regiment has never been corrupt either, sure there are individual characters at time but the regiment has always gone out of its way too seem humane since all these poor rpers qq in an amnesty international fashion

Samian wrote:The regiment is not shunned/avoided or w/e the regiment is simply inactive

There's a reason for its inactivity, just saying.
I won't explain my reason because noone would give a fuck anyway. And since I'm now guildless, apparently, it's not of relevance.

Lexgrad wrote:I remember talking to a "racial guild" guard who ooc told me that they were the best guards because they kicked a "criminal guild" out of their city where as SW let them set up here...

Clearly this obvious dwarf you had been speaking to must have been dabbling with the stout.
Ironforge has the finest not because they can so effectivley kick all the brawlers, bawlers and bastards out of the city.
No they have the finest because they acomplish the kicking out part with style.

Samian still such a rookie, you should swing by Gol'Bolar some day and we could teach you a thing or two.

I'd just like to say from my perspective, squished underneath the heavy boot of the law since vanilla, my experiences with the Stormwind Regiment have been largely positive. They offered a nitty-gritty medieval feel of guarding, which gave criminality an atmosphere of fear and paranoia which is much needed. This rubbed off to such a degree where I think it's the first guarding guild in which I wasn't arrested by, the atmosphere provoked me to carry out my criminal shenanigans in a wiser manner.

To get away with this kind of guarding, OOC communication between both sides is necessary, and I think for a while an OOC channel was used, to pretty good effect to mediate issues encountered between criminals and the guards, more of this is always better.

I guess the issue must be really serious if Feydor manages to write a decent post where he actually has a point