[IC] Exile Order for the Ebon Shroud

Geldar wrote:

I really don't think the Council needs to do what you suggest, they barely do anything with justice lately. 'Cause of this sort of drama!

That is because no one is capable of handling the consequences of their actions, no matter how bad, illogical or stupid they might be. The moment they catch up with the supposed group or organization involved, it always turns to drama.

And the actions carried out by the Council are IC, based on IC evidence, and two months of meetings on which people did our heads in regarding this matter. You know, its really bothersome these days because we seemingly act as daycare tutors.

And also with the leader of the Shroud in the Council, we have said many a time that action will be taken, and I do believe his character exploded from joy when he heard of the plans.

As for the action itself, its very easy to sneak into Stormwind and do not say that you are part of the Shroud, regardless of the exile, they are not welcome anymore by what seems like popular demand from various guilds ICly. Nothing against the guild OOCly I am sure from anyone, but I believe people are tired of the random rampaging death knights in Stormwind, and I am sure that nowhere in any of the lore that the Death Knights have says that they behave like street thugs.

But by all means, if the exile order upsets you, you are free to talk with us or disregard it. However, I cannot say we will deal with one more thing regarding the Ebon Shroud afterwards as well, I simply do not want to deal with nonsense drama and many of my collegues in the Council aswell, enough is enough. We are not babysitters.

My 0.02$

If the Chapter of Anethion were exiled for stabbing Ishap, something more punishable than a few assaults and arguments with the Shroud, are you telling me they wouldn't get annoyed?

Easy to say all of this when you're the one who isn't being exiled. It is a ridiculous reason. They have barely done any crimes, in fact I can't think of a single one punishable by exile.

The Council are there to promote RP, not discourage it because OOCly they're upset about not talking about "EDUCATION IN STORMWIND."

The Shroud spiced RP up and they didn't do it via a big bad evil guy. They did it like the Chapter does it. They created a contraversial view point. They argued, they threatened. They were never treasonous, nor murderers.

Geldar, you're not a superior role-player to anyone on this forum because you're on the council. Don't let your ego be boosted by your IC position. OOCly, you're the same as anyone else. Grow up please.

Can someone list the crimes the Shroud have done please? I'd be glad to go along with the RP if it had some bloody ground to stand on.

Geldar wrote:The Shroud are completely free to mend the damage through diplomacy and other action, regardless of the IC ban, certainly there are ways to work around that and even more ways to have it removed through negotiations and good will, but expecting to act stupid and nothing be done about it, but having the stuff regarded as serious, will simply not fly.

this is exactly what shentin is going to try and do.. thow she did NOT seek acceptence from the shrouds leaders to do it.. she is acting on her own will..

I have only just joind the shroud as a former officer when it was created.. I am supprised this has happend.. and from all my time in sw yes the shroud have been an in your face presence but i rairly saw them cause any real trouble.. it was usualy others starting on them forcing retaliation... regardless of which having joind the shroud there are some very strict rules which basicaly means any violence initiated on the knights side results in death for that knight.. as such i am supprised that these events have passed..

eather way the biggest isue i have seen mentiond repeatedly


OOC COMMUNICATION!!! this has happend on newmerous occations from newmerouds guilds and half the time involving the council...

I am not fighting the councils judgements.. or the ic ramifications or causes...

but if you are going to make LARGE GUILD ALTERING DESSISIONS.. OOC COMMUNICATIONS MUST BE MADE

There can never be any exeptions to this rule..

as has been pointed out the shroud will play there ic part in this.. but i would thing on an ooc from.. apppologies are owed

I have been part of these forums for a many number of years now.. this is the third such what i would call Majour fuck up when it comes to ooc communication.. most drama is stemming from this lack of consideration.. not the act of baishment itself... you council need to be wary of this.. your reputation is always on a knife edge and stuff like this does not help you..

the idea of a council is briliant.. but you must start talking ooc to the other guilds involved with you!!

rant over *inserts 0.02$*

Vaell wrote:

Geldar wrote:

I really don't think the Council needs to do what you suggest, they barely do anything with justice lately. 'Cause of this sort of drama!

That is because no one is capable of handling the consequences of their actions, no matter how bad, illogical or stupid they might be. The moment they catch up with the supposed group or organization involved, it always turns to drama.

And the actions carried out by the Council are IC, based on IC evidence, and two months of meetings on which people did our heads in regarding this matter. You know, its really bothersome these days because we seemingly act as daycare tutors.

And also with the leader of the Shroud in the Council, we have said many a time that action will be taken, and I do believe his character exploded from joy when he heard of the plans.

As for the action itself, its very easy to sneak into Stormwind and do not say that you are part of the Shroud, regardless of the exile, they are not welcome anymore by what seems like popular demand from various guilds ICly. Nothing against the guild OOCly I am sure from anyone, but I believe people are tired of the random rampaging death knights in Stormwind, and I am sure that nowhere in any of the lore that the Death Knights have says that they behave like street thugs.

But by all means, if the exile order upsets you, you are free to talk with us or disregard it. However, I cannot say we will deal with one more thing regarding the Ebon Shroud afterwards as well, I simply do not want to deal with nonsense drama and many of my collegues in the Council aswell, enough is enough. We are not babysitters.

My 0.02$

If the Chapter of Anethion were exiled for stabbing Ishap, something more punishable than a few assaults and arguments with the Shroud, are you telling me they wouldn't get annoyed?

Easy to say all of this when you're the one who isn't being exiled. It is a ridiculous reason. They have barely done any crimes, in fact I can't think of a single one punishable by exile.

The Council are there to promote RP, not discourage it because OOCly they're upset about not talking about "EDUCATION IN STORMWIND."

The Shroud spiced RP up and they didn't do it via a big bad evil guy. They did it like the Chapter does it. They created a contraversial view point. They argued, they threatened. They were never treasonous, nor murderers.

Geldar, you're not a superior role-player to anyone on this forum because you're on the council. Don't let your ego be boosted by your IC position. OOCly, you're the same as anyone else. Grow up please.

Can someone list the crimes the Shroud have done please? I'd be glad to go along with the RP if it had some bloody ground to stand on.

What? I thought his post was pretty civil? Where the hell did you get that ego superiority thing from?

Vaell wrote:If the Chapter of Anethion were exiled for stabbing Ishap, something more punishable than a few assaults and arguments with the Shroud, are you telling me they wouldn't get annoyed.

It wasn't more punishable though. Ishap was a repeatedly committed a crime against Stormwind. Stop trying to bring that into this.

What the Shroud have done has been listed in this thread, and like people have said, some are simply tired of the random rampaging death knights in Stormwind

And yeah, what Per said.

However, I cannot say we will deal with one more thing regarding the Ebon Shroud afterwards as well, I simply do not want to deal with nonsense drama and many of my collegues in the Council aswell, enough is enough. We are not babysitters.

This point really annoyed me, it is really egotistical and arrogant. No RPer is above another. He may be a good rper, but he can't decide OOCly that he doesn't like someone and dictate their actions without ground to stand on.

EDIT: Note "I" the minority. Many people like rping with the shroud, they're bringing great RP to the server. I couldn't care a less if you've spent 100 years role-playing, that was bad RP and they haven't commited crimes worthy of Exile.

Sorry for the double post.

I'm not trying to insult you, I just felt it harsh that you belittled the guild because they're annoyed how it was dealt with.

It breaks immersion when things don't make sense ICly. I'm here to role-play decent stories and become immersed and I'd just like to see everyone working together to actually do that instead of causing unnecessary drama.

Vaell wrote:
Can someone list the crimes the Shroud have done please? I'd be glad to go along with the RP if it had some bloody ground to stand on.

A few incidents, my personal experience:

• Abuducting and torturing & flaying a woman for knowing a 'Scarlet'
  
• Several other kidnaps
  
• Numerous ssaults, attacks & threats
  
• Several clashes with the dwarves (though I don't know the full details of those will refrain from full listing)
  
• Abducting, killing, raising from the dead, and brainwashing a draenei
  
• Smashing up the Pig several times
  
• Numerous death threats, killing a captain's (in the Blades) gryphon and ordering her killed
  
• Strangling another Blade, attempting mind control, abuse of shadow magic
  
• etc.
  

Aside from the dwarven stuff, these are all things I've been involved with, directly icly on Kitt. And also things that've been presented to guards or council with proof. They've got away with a -lot-. And this has been going on since back in Nov of last year. It's ic consequences to ic actions; if the Blades constantly harassed/attacked other people in SW in the same way, or in IF...I'd fully expect them to be banned.
Even with the banishment, there's ic workarounds, as various people have said.

Vaell wrote:

I simply do not want to deal with nonsense drama and many of my collegues in the Council aswell, enough is enough. We are not babysitters.

This point really annoyed me, it is really egotistical and arrogant. No RPer is above another. He may be a good rper, but he can't decide OOCly that he doesn't like someone and dictate their actions without ground to stand on.

EDIT: Note "I" the minority. Many people like rping with the shroud, they're bringing great RP to the server. I couldn't care a less if you've spent 100 years role-playing, that was bad RP and they haven't commited crimes worthy of Exile.

agreed... I have bolded a paticular statement,, this i feel sums up why many end up upset with the council and why you keep getting drama.. if you simpply communicate ooc then you would not need to "babysit"

this thus gives many the impression that you are assuming ooc controle as well as just ic..

if you want to be a councill membet you NEED to ooc communicate.. you have no option in that!!

What? I thought his post was pretty civil? Where the hell did you get that ego superiority thing from?

I can give a guess where he pulls it out from, but I'd rather leave it hanging in the air.

This point really annoyed me, it is really egotistical and arrogant. No RPer is above another. He may be a good rper, but he can't decide OOCly that he doesn't like someone and dictate their actions without ground to stand on.

That is your opinion and your problem, I am afraid. And I can very well decide who to like and who not to like OOCly and ICly as the character I RP is mine and no one elses.

Furthermore, no one says we need to deal with the nonsense crap drama week in and week out that wastes hours with pointless arguments for the better of two months now, completely overshadowing the other actual good issues people were attempting to bring forth for discussion, which frankly, had to be done outside of Council time because the every two hour meeting we've had was spammed with the Death Knight nonsense.

I think that is ground enough to base our "liking", because yes, as much as its contrary to popular belief, we are people too, and we pay for this game to enjoy our time, and dealing with this crap week in and week out is not good fun, and if you do not like our way of aproach of the matter, especially after sprouting such comments as the ones above, then deal with it.

Also, we took this decision mostly from outside pressure from people who felt nothing was being done, and it was done through IC means, and it should be taken ICly. Again I say, the Shroud are not forbidden to RP in Stormwind, there will simply be consequences if they are caught.

Also, Monrena, the leader of the Shroud is a member of the Council, and he was well informed of what was heading his way. So stop with the "OMG COMMUNICATE!!11one" comments, we've gone through that. Also, bolding out and taking out a single line of context from my post does not do you any justice as I very well explained my reasoning for what I have said, we've had enough that our Council events are turned into a drama circus where nothing good can be achieved bar pointless arguments on silly subject that makes people not show up on the next meeting because they know it will be the same, and much to your surprise the Councilours feel the same, because issues that do not involve the Council what so ever are brought up and we have to deal with the pointless nonsense meeting in, meeting out and we've had it.

I was trying to avoid this thread since I've been away for three weeks, but meh, I'm on the council so hi, figured I should add a couple comments.

1) People have been complaining about the Shroud for months, for the crimes Kittrina mentioned and more. There should've been an inquest and trial, but it seems there wasn't, and the Council has been in the position to outlaw orders in the past. It's messy, but possible.

2) Bollocks to the whole 'Some people are acting above others!' Have you been to the last few months' council meetings? The civility of council members has been surprisingly exemplary, and as mentioned above, it's a long-accepted part of RPing that the Stormwind Council can outlaw orders and groups if they're a public danger.

Now, I don't really have an opinion about the actual outlawing because I wasn't there. But I do wish people would stop assuming there's some poor victim to the heartlessness of a few, because it's quite obvious there isn't.

you warnd him ic or ooc? as that makes a large large difference when it comes to deathknights

Monrena wrote:you warnd him ic or ooc? as that makes a large large difference when it comes to deathknights

Lolwat

oh come now dk's ic many of them are arogent and well.. big headed they ignore warnings ic

Being on the council, Lexgrad has been aware of the concerns both IC and OOC. He has been present at the majority of the council meetings where they've been discussed, again IC and OOC.

Monrena wrote:you warnd him ic or ooc? as that makes a large large difference when it comes to deathknights

If you know IC... You know OOC?

And an IC "warning" has been a given with all the council sessions.

That is your opinion and your problem, I am afraid. And I can very well decide who to like and who not to like OOCly and ICly as the character I RP is mine and no one elses.

It is YOUR opinion and problem. The Shroud may annoy you OOCly and ICly. Gypsys annoy David Cameron, he can't exactly kick them out of the country for his dislike! Using your OOC opinion for someone IC is god emoting, I'm afraid.

Furthermore, no one says we need to deal with the nonsense crap drama week in and week out that wastes hours with pointless arguments for the better of two months now, completely overshadowing the other actual good issues people were attempting to bring forth for discussion, which frankly, had to be done outside of Council time because the every two hour meeting we've had was spammed with the Death Knight nonsense.

That is your job as the council. You should say that no more can be said of the Shroud in council and that the matter will be taken up in court. Those responsible brought to trial. You're not the King, you can't order Exile over people crying. Politics is full of that, you need to learn to deal with it. It is good role-play, they have caused arguments but not commited serious crimes.

I think that is ground enough to base our "liking", because yes, as much as its contrary to popular belief, we are people too, and we pay for this game to enjoy our time, and dealing with this crap week in and week out is not good fun, and if you do not like our way of aproach of the matter, especially after sprouting such comments as the ones above, then deal with it.

And what are they, I'm sorry? Are they NPCs? No, they're also players. They pay monthly for this. This is a world of feckin' Warcraft! Of course there is constant crap in and out each week. If you don't like what I've said to you, then don't deal with it - grow up. You can't take criticism? Then perhaps you're not the best with dealing with this, my friend.

Also, we took this decision mostly from outside pressure from people who felt nothing was being done, and it was done through IC means, and it should be taken ICly. Again I say, the Shroud are not forbidden to RP in Stormwind, there will simply be consequences if they are caught.

It was dealt with poorly. Exile is not a punishment you can hand out. It is something that is used for people that have commited far harsher crimes. By your ruling, every guild - even the Disciples - should be exiled. You'll end up going to a council where there is you, a dancing naked Elf and your butler around a small table discussing Education and vandalism in Stormwind.

Also, Monrena, the leader of the Shroud is a member of the Council, and he was well informed of what was heading his way. So stop with the "OMG COMMUNICATE!!11one" comments, we've gone through that.

He disagreed with it on the first week, saying it didn't make sense and they didn't commit crimes worthy of it. Communication was more you trialling him on an OOC level.


My character is outraged ICly as he was fond of the shroud. I'm more annoyed at the complete disregard for your peers OOCly.

in witch case i shut up then Im already making ic plans for thiw whole ic mes anyway im taking it in my ic stride XD

Kittrina wrote:

Vaell wrote:
Can someone list the crimes the Shroud have done please? I'd be glad to go along with the RP if it had some bloody ground to stand on.

A few incidents, my personal experience:

• Abuducting and torturing & flaying a woman for knowing a 'Scarlet'
  
• Several other kidnaps
  
• Numerous ssaults, attacks & threats
  
• Several clashes with the dwarves (though I don't know the full details of those will refrain from full listing)
  
• Abducting, killing, raising from the dead, and brainwashing a draenei
  
• Smashing up the Pig several times
  
• Numerous death threats, killing a captain's (in the Blades) gryphon and ordering her killed
  
• Strangling another Blade, attempting mind control, abuse of shadow magic
  
• etc.
  

Aside from the dwarven stuff, these are all things I've been involved with, directly icly on Kitt. And also things that've been presented to guards or council with proof. They've got away with a -lot-. And this has been going on since back in Nov of last year. It's ic consequences to ic actions; if the Blades constantly harassed/attacked other people in SW in the same way, or in IF...I'd fully expect them to be banned.
Even with the banishment, there's ic workarounds, as various people have said.

Yeah but that is my fault Kitt! You know exactly what happened, dont pretend OOC that the Blades were faultless when we both know that most of the "scuffles" it was was little more in all honesty and was started by Blades mostly. Why cant you and the Hammers see that IC//OOC. It is fine to admit OOC that you are not 100% pure like you do in char. There was never Shadowmagic, necromancy or murder committed by the shroud in any alliance lands.

Like come on, seems the worst we have ever done is kill gryphons, really! Just get some clarity of OOC vision all of you, your own guilds have done much worse!

I won't reply to the next message as I realise I'm just going to create a bigger problem.

I'll put my characters view into action ICly and what I was planning to do prior to this argument anyway.

Am I completely mistaken if I think one of the issues here is completely unrelated to the guild The Ebon Shroud?

Namely the question of what matters it would be appropriate to bring up at council meetings, and what matters should be dealt with elsewhere?

Lexgrad wrote:your own guilds have done much worse!

But we don't get caught!

Dwyburn wrote:Am I completely mistaken if I think one of the issues here is completely unrelated to the guild The Ebon Shroud?

Namely the question of what matters it would be appropriate to bring up at council meetings, and what matters should be dealt with elsewhere?

You're quite right. The council's discussing that as it is, since many of the meetings lately have been a circus, and intend to put up some IC guidelines.

Annie wrote:

Dwyburn wrote:Am I completely mistaken if I think one of the issues here is completely unrelated to the guild The Ebon Shroud?

Namely the question of what matters it would be appropriate to bring up at council meetings, and what matters should be dealt with elsewhere?

You're quite right. The council's discussing that as it is, since many of the meetings lately have been a circus, and intend to put up some IC guidelines.

Glad to hear that.

Just to Clear it up and im done with this thread, it was not I who raised this week after week at council, it was other RPers. Other than an offer to assist in Darkshire, asking for the status of Scarlets to be explained and asking for the proof we were horde Spies that the dwarves appantly had we really havent raised much more than RP others seem to want to raise. (We havent even raised a Char).

If we are a burning topic then we have atleast made more RP for everyone than if we were sitting in the Acherus all night. Will try to work it out IC and hopefully we can all work stuff out OOC.

Am I the only person who loves debates and arguments at council meetings?

I think the circus makes for fantastic political rp...