[IC] Exile Order for the Ebon Shroud

It is YOUR opinion and problem. The Shroud may annoy you OOCly and ICly. Gypsys annoy David Cameron, he can't exactly kick them out of the country for his dislike! Using your OOC opinion for someone IC is god emoting, I'm afraid.

To begin with, Cameron as the PM I believe is in his full right to have the ones annoying/threatening a community away from that area for the safety of it, especially if there have been numerous complaints about it. Furthermore, its not called god emoting because no emotes are involved, its called metagaming, but such is not present because that happens when you do not know something ICly but you know it OOCly and you use that OOC knowledge to magically find out ICly and base actions on that. Our OOC and IC opinions might be quite close to each other on this matter, but nothing more.

That is your job as the council. You should say that no more can be said of the Shroud in council and that the matter will be taken up in court. Those responsible brought to trial. You're not the King, you can't order Exile over people crying. Politics is full of that, you need to learn to deal with it. It is good role-play, they have caused arguments but not commited serious crimes.

It has never been our job to babysit loud mouthed Death Knight thugs, and it has never been a job by any stretch of the word, it has been our community event to which everyone is welcome, it is only thanks to such idiocy that we come to realize that it really feels as a job at a time. And we have been dealing with it, for nearly five years in a roll, every Tuesday, otherwise we could have given up, long, long ago.

And what are they, I'm sorry? Are they NPCs? No, they're also players. They pay monthly for this. This is a world of feckin' Warcraft! Of course there is constant crap in and out each week. If you don't like what I've said to you, then don't deal with it - grow up. You can't take criticism? Then perhaps you're not the best with dealing with this, my friend.

Aw, a grow up comment. That's when you know things are getting serious, but really, its our event, so yes I believe we are in our full right to decide if we are going to deal or not deal with them, and we have been taking criticism, more than you can possibly fathom, but hrm, yes, maybe we are not the best to deal with this, do you volunteer to handle any Shroud affairs from now on, by the way?

It was dealt with poorly. Exile is not a punishment you can hand out. It is something that is used for people that have commited far harsher crimes. By your ruling, every guild - even the Disciples - should be exiled. You'll end up going to a council where there is you, a dancing naked Elf and your butler around a small table discussing Education and vandalism in Stormwind.

To the first point, yes we can. To the second point, that is due to the presence of certain events that keep driving people away, hrm, lets see. Ah yes, two months of constant drama, I doubt anyone would wish to waste time on dealing with such, but hey, something must be wrong with us to deal with it, eh?

He disagreed with it on the first week, saying it didn't make sense and they didn't commit crimes worthy of it. Communication was more you trialling him on an OOC level.

We have not trialled anyone on an OOC basis. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.

Team A: Please use the influence as the council to do what is right.
Team B: The council has too much power.

Each and every time a decision is made, one of these camps appears. If not both.

We'll look at all this and make changes where they are required when we've settled ourselves. We're going to be looking at how the council is handled and how we make our individual contributions. Because right now, some of us are heavily disgruntled with the whole organisation and how it is treated.

So, please stop replying to this thread. (Calling for a lock)

To begin with, Cameron as the PM I believe is in his full right to have the ones annoying/threatening a community away from that area for the safety of it, especially if there have been numerous complaints about it.

As an unrelated point, no he can't. He can remove them from an area, not banish them from the country.

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Farm

Yeah but, but. Welcome to medival fantasy times.

I'll just not play my DK for a while, how's that? She didn't do anything wrong to begin with, and now she'll be doing nothing at all \o/

Does anyone who's whining OOCly think this is going to effect the IC decision?

Just to get to the entire "Why didn't Council banish Chapter aswell" thing.

I believe, unlike Shroud, Chapter are Stormwind's citizens, hence its a case for Braiden, not Council. (And last time I attended, it was also handed to Braiden for investigation)

Furthermore

QQ y do our actions have consequences

Wow. This thread really is... Yeaaah.....

I read through it all, and seriously- You guys really need to just fucking deal with it. One cannot get away with everything.
Deli, you should know full well that this is a group thing, you're not being targeted specifically so stop acting like you are.

This whole thread is bullshit. It's a VERY LOGICAL step to remove the problem from the city, if they're constantly breaking the peace treaty they've sworn upon when they allied themselves to the Alliance.
If you believe you have a upper right above the law just so you can 'rp where ever you want', then I can equally claim I should have a right to RP Orgrimmar as a Gnomish city, and everyone needs to shut the fuck up because I say it is.

Truly, this is an embarrassment of a read.

If we cannot have proper consequences for actions, then is there any point in trying to RP properly at all?
Truly, then we can all just lol about and stop even trying.

Suck it up and deal with it, you've obviously caused this yourselves. Not all will be guilty, but this is an act of a group, and anyone associated to that group will obviously be seen in the same light, that is logic.

Yes, Lorainne is, for obvious reasons, first being questioned by the Inquisition before she can talk to the Vicar.

Previous action is current reaction. It could kill her, I fear, but that is a consequence I could live with, even if it would create many man tears.

If you walk around town, telling your men to enter teashops to abuse kind big-mouthed tea ladies, then you will have to deal with the consequences.

If you play tough, expect tough. Again to compare to Lorainne, she shamelessly denounced Anethion and now expects the Chapter the give her another shot at ... not being a heretic. It will take some sacrifice (IC!), but in the end all things could work out if performed properly and relationships are worked on.

Lexgrad wrote:

Yeah but that is my fault Kitt! You know exactly what happened, dont pretend OOC that the Blades were faultless when we both know that most of the "scuffles" it was was little more in all honesty and was started by Blades mostly. Why cant you and the Hammers see that IC//OOC. It is fine to admit OOC that you are not 100% pure like you do in char. There was never Shadowmagic, necromancy or murder committed by the shroud in any alliance lands.

Like come on, seems the worst we have ever done is kill gryphons, really! Just get some clarity of OOC vision all of you, your own guilds have done much worse!

You Are seriously breaking your Own IC/OOC Rule here Lexgrad.

Keep the issues seperate: The banishment Is purely IC. It has no ooc connections, there's no need to have the IC full story to banish some-one. be it racism or simply lazyness, that's RP, we play people. People that have issues, and people that will deal with those issues in the best and sometimes easiest way they can.

Everything DKs do will be put under a magnifying glass IC, Get over it. You're not the powerpuff girls. You're monstrosities, unnatural beings with unnatural powers, acting like Elementary school bullies. Yes you're going to get a worse treatment, over a Paladin that murders someone, deal with it. Even Jarric (you own character) was ICly shouting "Hallelujah" when it was stated that the shroud were going to be banished. And that Character is on the council. How can you then even claim that the issue was because people muddy OOC/IC reasoning?

The way Moonsong was acting at Northsire a week and a half or so ago is enough reason for Amy to kick the DKs out of the kingdom if it was in her power to call for that edict.

That's the point, there's no need to for strong objective evidence in this case. Because it is IC. Stop muddying it with your OOC complaints that this issue was forced due to being biased.

Then there's the second Issue:
The OOC notification and talking about this issue. Which to me is a fair point, since I don't have all the facts. But that has nothing to do with the fact that the DKs are going to get banished IC for their actions or perceived actions.

But where do you draw the line there Amy? Following your logic, it's okay to have a character executed ICly if you RP it out sufficiently, even when there's no reason whatsoever to do it. The OOC impact is deplorable.

The punishment has an impact OOCly: being excluded from one of our largest RP hubs. It's the same shit over and over. People somehow feel punishments are needed, regardless of the OOC impact.
Stuffing a criminal in a jail for 7 days and not visiting or interacting with them once is just as piss poor a solution as 'banishment'.

You want to punish them ICly without OOC impact? Deal out some pain! Do some damage! But banishment? Meh.

Regardless of righteous or not, I would really advocate banishment to limited to the most extreme of situations...

Jeanpierre/Ragnilde wrote:But where do you draw the line there Amy? Following your logic, it's okay to have a character executed ICly if you RP it out sufficiently, even when there's no reason whatsoever to do it.

It is okay, as long as there is an acceptable reason (which there is, here). The response can be overhanded in comparison to the original act (which this possibly is), but there's nothing wrong with that.

IC Actions = IC Consequences. People need to stop taking it OOC and start thinking about what they can do with the cards they've been dealt.

I think that "acceptable reason to do so" is part of the debate

However, that's an OOC acceptable reason to do so. I think Amy did strike the nail on the head with this:

Amaryl wrote:The banishment Is purely IC. It has no ooc connections, there's no need to have the IC full story to banish some-one. be it racism or simply lazyness, that's RP, we play people. People that have issues, and people that will deal with those issues in the best and sometimes easiest way they can.

(my only gripe at this is that the banishment is OOC as it is IC. If you place someone outside the playground and then stick to the playground, then you exclude him from whatever game it is you play on the playground)

But in this case, I would still opt for different punishments in the future. We've seen banishments in the past and I rarely felt they added anything to RP. There's no RP involved in banishment. It's easy to say "meh, deal with it IC". That's like putting someone on ignore and then whispering them "Fix it, but I'm not listening". Challenging someone in RP is good, it's awesome even. But putting them "on hold" for some time, well, that's hardly challenging.

Much like playing jailor of a criminal, this banishment can only yield RP if we go out to them to RP around this. They're standing at the border of the Kingdom, where we've placed them. Who, of the lovely Shroud bashers here, will go out to meet them?

I mean.. we're talking about actions leading to consequences right? Well.. We banished them. The consequence is we ought to expand our roleplay domain to keep them included. That's the responsibility you bear as a guard to a criminal you just caught. This is not different.

I have to agree with you, JP, that I am not a very big fan of banishment as a punishment. However, since it would be hard now to turn back the clock, a couple of things that I would keep in mind for those in the Ebon Shroud:

1) The council hasn't banished all death knights; only the king could do that Thus, an individual in the Shroud could always take the risk of spending time in Stormwind. As long as they aren't, say, wearing Shroud colours and talking about their order, they might be perfectly safe unless some other citizen raises the hue and cry against them. I remember this working well enough with some members of the Crimson Flame back in the days when they were banished.

2) Banishment is temporary. There can always be negotiations to have it lifted.

As far as I can see, the city was just fed up with runaway bullying death knights, and banishment was seen as a fit IC way of getting rid of that problem. If this were some permanent issue I would be appalled at the idea, but as a temporary measure I suggest we all find some way to RP this out now that it's done.

I wouldn't advocate a rollback either, Annie You're right. Move on!

I'm not a fan of that first option. It works, but... It's such a delicate thing to RP properly and it's open to a great deal of misunderstandings. Do you know this person to be a Shroudie? Probably, but was it IC or OOC? Would your char call him out?

The second options sounds like a lot more fun. Not just negotiations.. but events and actions that the Shroud could do to redeem themselves and prove their worth. *ideas coming up*

It isn't about consequences for actions, it is the actions being minor crimes and Banishment is one of the highest forms of punishment in lore. They didn't murder, mind control etc - that was another set of DKs people are getting confused with (that silly Elf!)

My original point was to argue against it ICly. I merely caused a stir because of the way on an OOC basis it was dealt with. I'm not one of the vanilla Rpers of this server so I'm not used to seeing such disregard for your fellow RPer. It is not a case of changing everything IC, Lex has already said he'll deal with it IC.

If role-players can't build a barrier between their real life personalities and their in game characters, then they're doing it wrong.

EDIT: Just as an extra point; one of my main problems with this is exiling the shroud was the first thing the Council did after getting fed up of it being a topic of conversation. It doesn't take a genius to realise that the stir they're causing could build some truly great RP. You could banish them later when things go wrong, but why didn't you first try...
1) Imprisonment
2) Escorts in Stormwind locations
3) A TRIAL!

I could come up with about 20 things you could have done to make it more fun, instead it became an OOC argument. It isn't about whether it happened IC, everyone accepts it did. It is about how BORING and POORLY it was dealt with.

Vaell wrote:
1) Imprisonment
2) Escorts in Stormwind locations
3) A TRIAL!

1 leads to either them busting out in a day, or having even LESS chance at RP then banishment
2 lolwat, Guards are babysitters now?
3 Already got explained. Read.

Vaell wrote:I'm not one of the vanilla Rpers of this server so I'm not used to seeing such disregard for your fellow RPer.

Well, suppose insulting every single rper that is a vanilla player on this server is cool bro. You're da man.

[quote="Raelan"]

Vaell wrote:
1) Imprisonment
2) Escorts in Stormwind locations
3) A TRIAL!

[/b]

1 leads to either them busting out in a day, or having even LESS chance at RP then banishment
2 lolwat, Guards are babysitters now?
3 Already got explained. Read.

Vaell wrote:I'm not one of the vanilla Rpers of this server so I'm not used to seeing such disregard for your fellow RPer.[/quote="Vaell"]

Well, suppose insulting every single rper that is a vanilla player on this server is cool bro. You're da man.

1) It can and has been done properly in the past. It is a lot better than going "get out.. no chance."
2) Yes. That is exactly what they are to an extent. They're asked to carry out an order, it happens. It would work in role-play, as it would be a slight to the Shroud. It would probably encourage them to cause a reason to be exiled..
3) It should be done before the banishment.

As to your second point, clearly I was stating that things like this have happened since Vanilla - I was pointing out my lack of experiance on this server. To expand the point that you seemed to have glanced over, I've heard of people - a general term, I'm not basing this off of any names - doing things like this in the past. I've not seen it as of yet.

This "easy option" boring attitude is really bad role-play. You can be as creative as a door knob and come up with a story better than "DK DK, GO AWAY, COME BACK ANOTHER DAY!"

If for an odd reason the Most Holy and Pure chapter faced exile and I was asked what is a more fitting and fun punishment, I would answer:

Disarmament: forbid them to bear arms and armor and walk the city in civilian clothing doing their law-abiding things. those who want to RP in Stormwind can do so, those who want to oppose can walk about incognity in full dreadplate and good guys can root out these infiltrators. More RP for everybody.

Jeanpierre/Ragnilde wrote:But where do you draw the line there Amy? Following your logic, it's okay to have a character executed ICly if you RP it out sufficiently, even when there's no reason whatsoever to do it. The OOC impact is deplorable.

Yes I believe its more then fair to attempt to execute a player based on biased information, be it a bribed magistrate, a crappy defense lawyer or just a pissed of Minister. I'm not looking for the objective Truth when RPing, my character is as biased as a Tavern Wench that decides who she lets patting her behind. I mean her arrest of Isadoria Dawn of the ebon shroud was solely done because she was annoyed by the woman asking a questions at the wrong place and the wrong time. She just figured that the dreadnettle was good enough of a basis to not get in trouble over it, and hopefully teaching the DK a lesson.


Let me place my thoughts regarding the "Ramifications" of exile.

Exile or banishment is simply the soft version of Execution. It is the verdict that the place where you're doing your shenanigans has had enough. And that we're done with that crap, and you should fuck off from the land. Without the added effect of the character dying, and the RPers can still develop his character in different ways, then the need to make a new char.

Is it "Harsh"? Damn Straight it is, It is supposed to be harsh. Beating the shit out of a DK once or twice, or thrice will not change the situation. Since we can't kill them, if they don't want to die.

But to say that simply because you're banished as an organisation that you're completely locked out of the hub is wrong. You're locked out of the hub if you behave in the exact same that made you get kicked out. You can't just prance around openly as a squad of DKs huffing and puffing until you breathe fire. You'll have to change your RP to be able to move around the city and not get kicked out. Does that mean hiding, wearing disguises, not openly prophesying your Shroudness. Basically its an entire new way of RPing in the hub. Which is progress, which I consider good. and through that, they can get RPers to their new base for whatever reason, where they can proliferate their DKness and what not.

So Yes its a harsh punishment, but it is a punishment which progresses RP into a different direction and not just kills it off, Or perpetuate the status-quo where nothing ever changes, which is the point.

The shroud can try to attone, or they can try to revolt. Two paths that will lead to a shit load of different RP then the same crap we've had for the past 7 Months.

Again i'm not commenting on the OOC communications part, or the lack there-of as I don't know the scope of it, besides hear-say. But Telling someone oocly that they're going to get banished, and then perhaps creating a little event around it, is more fun then simply say: you're banished now, bye bye. That happened with the chapter, and it was a drama then also.

EDIT: I finally hope to see those Ebon Watchers in action in Stormwind as well.

As a complete outsider on this issue: there are some popcorn worthy things in this thread.

However this:

Melnerag wrote:
Disarmament: forbid them to bear arms and armor and walk the city in civilian clothing doing their law-abiding things. those who want to RP in Stormwind can do so, those who want to oppose can walk about incognity in full dreadplate and good guys can root out these infiltrators. More RP for everybody.

Sounds actualy pretty cool and something that I'm going to poke in the direction of SMC, if I remember that is.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:As a complete outsider on this issue: there are some popcorn worthy things in this thread.

I totally agree with this. D-R-A-M-A! On a more serious note. I've seen a fair few members leave the guild OOCly because of this, which is a bit silly really and I don't think it should've had to have come to that...

It's the logical conclusion. What makes it extra fun is that the loyal players to the shroud are probably not the ones that cause ruckus on a regular base, so some dudes who left the shroud can now quite happily go back to Stormwind to bother the living without exile.

Amaryl wrote: But to say that simply because you're banished as an organisation that you're completely locked out of the hub is wrong. You're locked out of the hub if you behave in the exact same that made you get kicked out. You can't just prance around openly as a squad of DKs huffing and puffing until you breathe fire. You'll have to change your RP to be able to move around the city and not get kicked out. Does that mean hiding, wearing disguises, not openly prophesying your Shroudness. Basically its an entire new way of RPing in the hub. Which is progress, which I consider good. and through that, they can get RPers to their new base for whatever reason, where they can proliferate their DKness and what not.

So Yes its a harsh punishment, but it is a punishment which progresses RP into a different direction and not just kills it off, Or perpetuate the status-quo where nothing ever changes, which is the point.

The shroud can try to attone, or they can try to revolt. Two paths that will lead to a shit load of different RP then the same crap we've had for the past 7 Months.

THAT!

I've been watching this thread for a bit now and held my tongue for the most part. But now I must say that if you are going to be running around doing the things the shroud have for so long, and to the point where for a while every council meeting was filled with complaints about the things they had done, you have to expect some IC backlash for it.

If the Blades were attacking other people as much as they attack each other, I would expect a similar result.

But look at what Amarly has said here, your RP in Stormwind doesn't have to stop. In fact it could very well be enriched with the now added aspect of needing to disguise yourself and or at the very least, be a DK with a helm/hood and no should tabard. Unless you are recognised, you will not be arrested and put to trial. Rather than looking at this a detracting from your RP, embrace it and use it to enrich it, and allow it to lead to new things that you wouldn't normally do with those characters. After all this is as it was stated temporary, so my suggestion is to use this time wisely and grasp with both hands the new avenues of RP that are available while they still are.

I did not read every single post in this thread but I am caught by surprise to say the least. Though it should've been communicated with Lexgrad I was also under the impression he saw this coming a mile off