[IC] Exile Order for the Ebon Shroud

Lexgrad wrote:

Krogon Devilstep wrote:

Lexgrad wrote:

Krogon Devilstep wrote:

Lexgrad wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, the voice of ignorance! ^^

Well atleast you admit your fault = /

((I am curious that someone who knows nothing about the situation feels in a situation to way in with Nazi metaphore.))

Cause and effect.

You and your guild did stupid things.... their getting punished for it.

And i know plenty, i sit in on councils regularly, and see a fair amount. not my fault you dont know its me. *shrug*

What was the cause of the Exile then?

eta Still waiting Krogon.

what? i dont have to reply, not me you have to justify anything too.

Besides, if you come to the council with grievances demanding action, then the council is well within its right to take action over grievances about you.

I lost count of the amount of times i've seen your guys running around picking fights and starting feuds, Barging into council/senate meetings in massive numbers to intimidate representatives into yielding to your demands. Spyre's list of crimes that he mentioned go without saying, Necromancy is ilegal isnt it? Dam, should i tell everyone about your attending Horde gathering meetings as lexgrad?

I'm certian High treason is a crime, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Because you certainly aint neutral. and you are breaking, ignoring, and disgarding laws.

Whether you was notified about this exile is irelevent, the point is, its a gentle slap on the wrist compared to whatever could have come... and it could been Far worse...

Ignorant of facts as I thought.

Lexgrad wrote:Ignorant of facts as I thought.

Truelly? and here was me thinking i just listed them.

Just a general observation:

The laws of Stormwind lack anything regarding membership of a criminal organization. Therefore, I'm speaking in general and not addressing this particular order, membership of a criminal organization is not a crime.

What this order amounts to is an executive order banishing a specific organization. I think we can conclude from this thread that it gets people riled up. It also, essentially, institutes a law about a specific criminal organization and attaches a punishment to that. Which is fair enough, but really isn't the best way to go about it if you ask me.

Wouldn't a much more prudent way of handling these scenarios be to implement a law making membership of a criminal (or illegal) organization, in general, illegal? It would constitute a general norm, thereby ensuring that 'drama' such as the above is generally avoided. Not only that, but the 'normal' punishment system of Stormwind would, and should, apply to such a law. Thereby making the punishment much more reasonable. People are obviously going to be agitated when confronted with a punishment such as possible execution, it's an extreme punishment. Especially because it's a punishment for being present somewhere, instead of actually doing something. One could add to Stormwind's legal system an additional punishment: Exile. Being in Stormwind illegally could then, again, be incorporated in Stormwind's law books etc.

The advantages of working in the way I've described should be obvious. It might be a tad more complicated, but I think that it would really decrease the drama generated. The question created obviously is: Who's going to decide what is a criminal organization and what is not? I think that should be up to the Courts, with the Council being capable of rescinding such a qualification for an organization. The Court itself, obviously should be able to modify its stance regarding a specific organization as well.

So yeah, more complicated, but I think it would decrease the amount of drama. Which is worth it in my mind. Just putting it out here to the people affected by it: Would you feel better about a system as I've described above and being qualified as a criminal organization by a court?

The problem Anti, is that the ebon shroud are a "foreign Ally" with its own "lands", and not a native organisation as the leaders of the shroud are so happy to spout at every single oppertunity, So I don't think the courts should decide who the kingdom allies with or breaks alliances with and which foreigners the kingdom allows to walk on its sovereign land.

The courts uphold the law, and should be able to banish individuals, that break that law. The King and his ministers will be the ones that decide who are accepted as Allies and who are not. Or do the courts need to dictate that the orcs of the red blades are allowed in Stormwind or not, since that's the same thing.

but what's clear is that there has been a lack in OOC communication, between the shroud and the council... the council doesn't have a stellar reputation when dealing with stuff like this,

but Lexgrad you're on the council, and you're still the ooc leader of the Ebon Shroud... and weren't you at the council meeting a week ago on Jarric as well?

I love me some drama, so by all means carry on.

Amaryl wrote:I love me some drama

No offense but....
*watches Amy turn red and rant*

Aye, I believe OOC communication is the key here.

Tbh, you shouldn't punish a whole group for the crimes of an individual. There was no trial, nor evidence. Just a few angry comments at council. People who control the council should learn how to deal with a justice system, I think. I totally understand why the shroud would be annoyed.

Various other guilds have commited crimes in the city, why are they not banished?

Also, anyone comparing it to Nazi Germany or any "evil" faction. You're being idiotic. The shroud hasn't murdered 6 million Stormwind Civilians and caused a war that has cost the lives of millions more. They have not even killed a single person under Stormwinds roof.

The whole thing is a bit stupid. I'm happy to go IC and build a campaign as Vaell likes the shroud. Though on an OOC level, yes they may be a foreign ally, but they haven't caused any horrific crimes. The council just seems like they've taken the lazy option and chose a silly resolution.

Amaryl wrote:The problem Anti, is that the ebon shroud are a "foreign Ally" with its own "lands", and not a native organisation as the leaders of the shroud are so happy to spout at every single oppertunity, So I don't think the courts should decide who the kingdom allies with or breaks alliances with and which foreigners the kingdom allows to walk on its sovereign land.

The courts uphold the law, and should be able to banish individuals, that break that law. The King and his ministers will be the ones that decide who are accepted as Allies and who are not. Or do the courts need to dictate that the orcs of the red blades are allowed in Stormwind or not, since that's the same thing.

but what's clear is that there has been a lack in OOC communication, between the shroud and the council... the council doesn't have a stellar reputation when dealing with stuff like this,

but Lexgrad you're on the council, and you're still the ooc leader of the Ebon Shroud... and weren't you at the council meeting a week ago on Jarric as well?

I love me some drama, so by all means carry on.

Strictly speaking, and pardon me for maybe not being up to date with lore etc, isn't the Ebon Shroud officially a part of the Knights of the Ebon Blade? A sub-organization of sorts? Because, to me, ending your alliance (or neutrality, whichever it is) with the Ebon Blade would be overstepping the freedom in working with the lore roleplayers enjoy. It would be a, pretty heavy, breach of the structure created by Blizzard within which we RP. With wide-ranging implications (Thassarian, anyone?).

Of course, declaring certain sub-organizations of allied lore organizations 'persona non grata' could be an option, as you could well have meant to do, in which case negate the above. I still prefer my solution to what I perceive to be the problem (hell, if you have a prosecutor your minister of Justice could pretty much instruct that person to bring X before the Court on charges of being part of a criminal organization). At the very least it might be a novel idea to add to the laws of SW.
Again, I'm not up to date with lore, be it officially sanctioned or player-made.

Obviously, if you disagree with regard to the council's freedom, then I'm fine with that and will leave it at that. It's a discussion without end and I'd prefer not to have it. It leads to nothing at all.

Anti, I see where you're getting at, and yes as the notice clearly says, Its not targetting every ebon knight, its targeting the Members of the Ebon Shroud.

Though, I agree with you, that there should be some laws written down on the matter of exiling, I don't think that shifting the situation from the council to court will change anything. Beyond moving the problem somewhere else;

Which is, people have been feeling royally mistreated by their supposed allies, and the council decided they'd had enough and ban them from the city.

Icly, sure it is a lazy act, but the council are politician's they're not all einsteins or ghandi. they're sweeping their own little courtyard nothing more, nothing less.

Point is Amaryl the shroud have done nothing really to warrent this. Dispite the propergander there has only ever been one conviction against the Shroud and in that case it was made clear it was a personal thing not a shroud matter. Dispite all the other clames the Shroud has never killed anyone in Alliance lands or Committed Necromancy in alliance lands (Dun Garok was a abandoned forsaken keep at the time of the Shrouds use of it as the forsaken won a WAR and even sacked it. in that case as the Dwarves will no doubt accept they were there to murder the DKs who were inside and they fought to escape. The plague and ghouls used in self defence vastly less sever than the attempt to murder what was then Allies.)

What annoys me about this is that such little thought was put into it. It was decided on a snap decision by Geldar after hearing one side of things. There has been no contact or comms all week in any channel and now it seems to have just happened. IC I will roll with it but OOC I am pissed that the great step of doing this was done so lightly.

What also annoys me is the two facedness of this community in that One week it is fine to exile a guild, the next you will winge at the council that they have too much power. Furthermore the blindness people have over their IC conduct is breath taking. IC it is fine to act however you like but OOC people should accept that their chars/groups are not perfect. The Dwarves were far from it in their dealings, ic that is fine but OOC it is weird to carry on their IC arguments. Same is true of SW and its RPers, do you think that the DKs were just causing trouble? Everything that occured was in response to others RP.

Amaryl makes a reasonable point but really that is a post dated argument as this was not IC or ooc discussed at any point really, it is 30 secs snap choice by one guy who doesnt even RP on the server any more and a crowd who are right enough IC to call for it yet seem to believe it OOC for some mad reason. There are no ins and outs to debate more than that.

I have this urge to write something to oppose the council, but I'm just not capable of trolling like our beautiful Amaryl can.

Jeanpierre/Ragnilde wrote:

Faralan wrote:

Jeanpierre/Ragnilde wrote:I'll agree Maelmoor, but there is an issue there: many events and action in RP is still guild steered. Without joining one guild or another, you're likely going to miss out on some action.
And what choices does a DK of her disposition have?

How's that an issue? They're banned from Stormwind, their events will be somewhere else. She won't lose out on their events. If she want SW events maybe a DK guild isn't her calling?

((The issue being that there's not many choices to make as a DK. There's a handful of Light guilds. There's not that liberty in DK guilds. If your only choice available deviates from what you'd do, you'd find yourself alone pretty quick.))

((I don't see a problem with this, it makes sense from a lore pespective and it makes sense for most citizens of Stormwind, I think people should consider who they will RP more, some will have more freedom than others. I truly dislike the "im a demon but I can stand infront of the cathedral cause I want to RP and you cannot tell me what to do" attitude. The same goes for death knights, you must be aware that they are disliked and hated by most, doesn't matter if their agenda is good or not.))

Vaell wrote:Tbh, you shouldn't punish a whole group for the crimes of an individual. There was no trial, nor evidence. Just a few angry comments at council. People who control the council should learn how to deal with a justice system, I think. I totally understand why the shroud would be annoyed.

Various other guilds have commited crimes in the city, why are they not banished?

Also, anyone comparing it to Nazi Germany or any "evil" faction. You're being idiotic. The shroud hasn't murdered 6 million Stormwind Civilians and caused a war that has cost the lives of millions more. They have not even killed a single person under Stormwinds roof.

The whole thing is a bit stupid. I'm happy to go IC and build a campaign as Vaell likes the shroud. Though on an OOC level, yes they may be a foreign ally, but they haven't caused any horrific crimes. The council just seems like they've taken the lazy option and chose a silly resolution.

For the past two months the Shroud has been at the Council making complete fools and dicks out of themselves, far more than a single individual. Showing lack of respect and discipline. Ontop of that some of their members I believe have been quite violent in SW since the beginning of that order.

I really don't think the Council needs to do what you suggest, they barely do anything with justice lately. 'Cause of this sort of drama!

This thread seems too familiar.

I really don't think the Council needs to do what you suggest, they barely do anything with justice lately. 'Cause of this sort of drama!

That is because no one is capable of handling the consequences of their actions, no matter how bad, illogical or stupid they might be. The moment they catch up with the supposed group or organization involved, it always turns to drama.

And the actions carried out by the Council are IC, based on IC evidence, and two months of meetings on which people did our heads in regarding this matter. You know, its really bothersome these days because we seemingly act as daycare tutors.

And also with the leader of the Shroud in the Council, we have said many a time that action will be taken, and I do believe his character exploded from joy when he heard of the plans.

As for the action itself, its very easy to sneak into Stormwind and do not say that you are part of the Shroud, regardless of the exile, they are not welcome anymore by what seems like popular demand from various guilds ICly. Nothing against the guild OOCly I am sure from anyone, but I believe people are tired of the random rampaging death knights in Stormwind, and I am sure that nowhere in any of the lore that the Death Knights have says that they behave like street thugs.

But by all means, if the exile order upsets you, you are free to talk with us or disregard it. However, I cannot say we will deal with one more thing regarding the Ebon Shroud afterwards as well, I simply do not want to deal with nonsense drama and many of my collegues in the Council aswell, enough is enough. We are not babysitters.

My 0.02$

, but I believe people are tired of the random rampaging death knights in Stormwind.

And in Ironforge.

And in Ironforge, yes. Apologies, quickly typing it.

Some of their members I believe have been quite violent in SW

That is half the trouble here. Lots of I believe. Basiclly when it boils down we bearly did anything week after week yet it was popular to bash the DKs at council. A chaptarian murdered a disciple who carried a shadow blade the same week btw and no one seems to rembember the exact reasons of any of this, only "I believe".

W/E really, bored of my guild being the football of this thread.

Lexgrad wrote:

Some of their members I believe have been quite violent in SW

A chaptarian murdered a disciple who carried a shadow blade the same week btw and no one seems to rembember the exact reasons of any of this, only "I believe".

It doesn't look good on you when you call people out for being commenting while being ignorant of the facts surrounding a situation and then act similarly.

I agree with Geldar.

Lexgrad wrote:

Some of their members I believe have been quite violent in SW

That is half the trouble here. Lots of I believe. Basiclly when it boils down we bearly did anything week after week yet it was popular to bash the DKs at council. A chaptarian murdered a disciple who carried a shadow blade the same week btw and no one seems to rembember the exact reasons of any of this, only "I believe".

W/E really, bored of my guild being the football of this thread.

You do realize the Chapter has been a hottopic practicly since it was created, three years ago? They've been banished, hated, bullied, attacked, insulted. And so much more, for three years, IC and heck sometimes even OOC.

So to drag them up now and say they're being cut some slack. Well it just doesn't work for me. Roleplaying a certain thing, will come with certain responses.
Then that your guild seems to lack discipline (or you perhaps urge them to?) that they do act like street thugs in Stormwind, well that's up to the leadership to control. Fail to do that and consiquences will come, as Geldar said.

You believe.

No Chapter were in an enormous amount of shit at one stage, it's not belief. It dragged on for years after and you can even see hints of it today. There were alot of mistakes made on both sides and it's truely heartwarming to see the same mistakes being made years later.

Also just to note.

The Shroud are completely free to mend the damage through diplomacy and other action, regardless of the IC ban, certainly there are ways to work around that and even more ways to have it removed through negotiations and good will, but expecting to act stupid and nothing be done about it, but having the stuff regarded as serious, will simply not fly.

Also, whining will get nothing, and frankly, I do not believe anyone will respond to anything that is not sensible. There comes a time where you've had enough and that is that.

This was done IC.

Should be possible to solve IC as well.
Not like it's permanent.

Lexgrad wrote:Point is Amaryl the shroud have done nothing really to warrent this.

wat.