The Azerothian Parliament ( Alliance ) An Idea

Ephitos / Amarachus wrote:I can live with trying something and not succeeding at it, but having an idea and not trying it, that just isn't me !

If i went with this plan i would have three less legs.
Also if your gonna make a post asking for peoples opinion and not listening to the ones who know the most about it (the council guys not me) it kinda removes the point of asking for a opinion, no?

Anaei/Vezullia wrote:

Ephitos / Amarachus wrote:

Ovelia "Snow" Adair wrote:Keep the picture spam down, any further ones will be deleted.

Thank you.
Right, I did not start negative comments.
On a player-player basis I do not want Geldar's opinion.
And it's my right NOT to have it in MY threads, and seeing as his opinion has nothing to do with the thread, He can be classified as trolling. Hence breaking the rules.

Now,
I stick to my idea, because I want to try it. The feedback given is un-supportive because in most peoples view this has to many flaws and complexities to work. But why should that stop me from trying? If I want to try RP it out, then I can?

Not rocking the boat. You are of course in your own right allowed to do as you please. However this is a public forum, this is not your thread, this is a public thread. It's everyone's. Technically if you wanna get nit-picky it's Julia's thread, her forum. So.. But no, the spam wasen't need, granted.

Also, can you stop taking digs at the council please? It's getting rather irritating.

Alright , Julia's forum. That's fair enough.
I'm taking digs at the council because the people commenting are literally commenting to stick up for each other.
There isn't anymore opinion, or suggestions , there is only "Hey our council buddy is in trouble, lets comment negatively!"
Or maybe I just stopped reading.
I'm also tired, so if you could all wait to comment until tomorrow, I'd be happy to address everybody's opinion and/or criticism.
Anaei/Vezullia, Your opposition to this idea has been balanced without making it sound personal, maybe I percieved peoples opinion to sound personal so took them to be more hostile, and if thats what it was then its my fault. But I stick to my ideas because they are interesting to me, and if nobody else interested then I probably will drop it.
Eventually..

Ephitos / Amarachus wrote:

Perturbo wrote:Alright, Parliaments, parties etc just take away from what little fantasy theme is left in WoW. If we wanted to do this, we'd get involved with it IRL. But we dont, we get characters with big swords, meet up in an empty field and kill each other a few times.

Does anyone even remember this guy?

I ain't going to argue with that.
Say that to the council .

The council are experienced people in whatever field there in, to stop people going "King Varian promoted me to demigod, i can do whatever I want"

Ezlbag wrote:

Ephitos / Amarachus wrote:I can live with trying something and not succeeding at it, but having an idea and not trying it, that just isn't me !

If i went with this plan i would have three less legs.
Also if your gonna make a post asking for peoples opinion and not listening to the ones who know the most about it (the council guys not me) it kinda removes the point of asking for a opinion, no?

There's plenty people who have a fair understanding of politics and have nothing to do with the council.
I don't care about the council. I never said this will replace them, I never said it will over-ride them.
The so called attack I made was created by paranoia on there side.
This isn't a war with the council, although it can quickly become one.
I have my opinion, and they have theres. I don't need ratification on my idea's by anybody to carry them out.
I can try what I want , when I want.
(I sound 7).
Anyway, Good Night.
And Perturbo, get the F on msn more often.

This isn't a war with the council, although it can quickly become one.

Careful comrade, as the great enemy of the people`s republic of Azeroth, the american William T. Sherman said: "War is hell."

Ephitos / Amarachus wrote:

Ezlbag wrote:

Ephitos / Amarachus wrote:I can live with trying something and not succeeding at it, but having an idea and not trying it, that just isn't me !

If i went with this plan i would have three less legs.
Also if your gonna make a post asking for peoples opinion and not listening to the ones who know the most about it (the council guys not me) it kinda removes the point of asking for a opinion, no?

There's plenty people who have a fair understanding of politics and have nothing to do with the council.
I don't care about the council. I never said this will replace them, I never said it will over-ride them.
The so called attack I made was created by paranoia on there side.
This isn't a war with the council, although it can quickly become one.
I have my opinion, and they have theres. I don't need ratification on my idea's by anybody to carry them out.
I can try what I want , when I want.
(I sound 7).
Anyway, Good Night.
And Perturbo, get the F on msn more often.

Alright enough, stop saying 'they' like we are one person. It is -really- getting on my nerves. "This isn't a war with the council, although it can quickly become one." Can it really? I think you really overestimate your support, I am not a nasty person, but you are being nasty towards me because of someone else's actions and I don't stand for that. And not one of 'our' posts ever made mention this would 'over-run' us, or 'replace' us, because we don't have that fear. Infact most offered our opinions and you began to make little slights about us, speaking between the lines, saying things as a dig and it's very rude. The Council is a diverse thing, we come together once a week, we do not all sleep in one bed and have one mouth. We have different opinions and views. So -stop- saying 'they' like we all think the same.

Ephitos / Amarachus wrote:
I'm taking digs at the council because the people commenting are literally commenting to stick up for each other.

This is where I stopped reading to be quite frank, I doubt I will return to read on the thread after this. The assumption you make right there is as baseless as the claim of the Earth's flatness. You go into extends to think of complex conspiracy theories, where people bunch up against you and your brilliant ideas for no apparent reason, just to "stick up for each other". At the same time you ignore the simplest of facts: we've been doing IC politics for long enough to recognize a good idea from a bad one. The fact alone that you prefer to believe your own made up assumptions and not the obvious situation conveys an aggressiveness by default, even if unwillingly on your behalf, which you only reinforce with the reaction you show towards the criticism.

Please, stop being so irrationally prejudiced and listen to what people say, not because they're against you for god knows what reason, but because they are truly trying to give you advice here. With that said, I wish you good luck in whatever you do and I hope you start seeing others with a bit more respect and a bit less suspicion.

I'm to tired to make a reply that won't have me raging.
Wait until tomorrow, I have plenty to say.
Good Night.

Ephitos / Amarachus wrote:I'm to tired to make a reply that won't have me raging.
Wait until tomorrow, I have plenty to say.
Good Night.

WEll I don't know who will read it, because what little respect I had for you is gone. Prejudice is simply pathetic.

A+ thread would read again

Jazeel wrote:A+ thread would read again

You shoulda seen how fast this thread got 6 pages.

'Am voting fer Gick Niffin an' the Gilnean National Parteh!

'E WUD MAKE A PROPAH GUD PRIMEMINSTER FUUR AZEROTH COZ DEM FILTHY SQUIDS IZ STEALIN US JEEERRBBZZ!

Chléirich/Gunnell/Graham wrote:'Am voting fer Gick Niffin an' the Gilnean National Parteh!

'E WUD MAKE A PROPAH GUD PRIMEMINSTER FUUR AZEROTH COZ DEM FILTHY SQUIDS IZ STEALIN US JEEERRBBZZ!

Do not worry Comrade Graham, in the great people`s republic of Azeroth there will be no hunger or people without jobs, the great Azerothian party will make sure of that. And chairman Deathwing promises freedom of speech and perestroika every five years!

Really? My vote is going for Deathwing then. No wonder he's doing so well with the votes in Stormwind since the last few days.

Ehhh. The Horde fully supports this chaos, and wishes to lay forth the motion that we be sent fresh virgins every week.

On another note. For christ's sake, pipe down the attitudes. If you're not here wanting to give or - most of all - recieve constructive criticism, then this just feels like a huUuUuUuuuuge waste of time. Or well, at this rate, you could just be here to indulge in the delicious drama.

At any rate, if you want people to go for your ideas, don't call them stupid. It only works with orcs.

Not withstanding the silly flame war going on here... and I am wondering why this thread wasn't locked after page 3 when it clearly became a mudslinging constest between different people. but imma put forward some opinions:


You're seeming to go the direction of the EU, and an "overall government" which frankly cannot work. especially the idea of creating a party that choses his prime minister.

since we are still ruled by our respective faction leaders. The SW council are appointed representatives of Varian, same with the ironforge senate I believe. sure in their RP allowances are made and it should be to keep it working for the people you like. but that is simply a fact that cannot be overlooked.

So you should ditch your idea's regarding party creating and parliament.

What you could Look into, is a "league of nations, United nation, NATO, type concept.

Where there are a number of representatives from every nation, that join together and discuss matters on behalf of their respective government. on a biweekly or monthly basis.

This would mean there are appointed "diplomats and ambassadors" that try to get certain tasks (i.e events) off the ground. bargaining for help. a quid pro quo type of deal. whatever politicing you like.

which would bring another feasible level to political RP, since it then wouldn't involve a certain person to go to all the councils seperately but promote their event in the that meeting, after which the representatives of each nation accept or take it back to their own Gov for review.

How big you can make that idea depends on how much work you'd want to put into logistics, since this is a lot of work.

but imo if you want to make something like this happen.
\
go the UN/Nato/League of nations/ route and not the EU route. so you create a similar events like the faction leaders are having in stormwind at this time.

my 2 Cents.

I only read snippets but I'm so damn opinionated that I'm going to tell everyone here what the deal is!


Just kidding.

Well no, no really. I would like to bring something up, though it isn't 100% in line with your actual suggestions in the original post.

You have an interest in politics, and I think it's pretty clear there are more people interested in it. I'm getting the impression people are trying to bring their real life passions in to the game and are coming with ideas that would provide them a framework to do so.
On one hand I applaud this. Passionate work is good! There's drive, there's creativity and there's work behind it. Good. But on the other hand... there are two concerns that worry me.

Firstly, if you're going to set up a framework with this level of complexity... it can deliver fantastic political roleplay but it will also raise the bar to a level that's hard to reach for others. People have to be at a certain level OOCly in order to work with this. I've seen a 13y old kid (in RL) play an adult char ICly and manage to work with the council. Do you think that same kid can manage to get his proposals done in your system?
You can add incredible political roleplay but it has to remain 'accessible'.
I hope Rentarn's going to forgive me, but I'd like to drag his purple ass in this as an example (he is, imo, a great example). He roleplays a doctor. Now... he loves to throw in medical terms and explanations that would make cleaning your belly button sound like advanced meta physics but you don't -need- to understand what the hell he's saying in order to know it tickles. That's brilliance right there: he adds a level of detail and complexity but keeps it accessible for people to do 'their part' in the roleplay. In other words: how people interact with it should be simple for all participants. It's just as difficult to look at this smiley right here-> than to look at a Picasso painting. One is brilliant, the other is not. Both require the same simple and basic interaction.

Another concern is... how is the current world holding you back from being a brilliant politician?
Imagine briefly that we implement this structure and we fast forward in time where the system is 'in operation'. What would you do? Hold debates? Make political contacts? Get in touch with representatives of other guilds and work out plans to get something done?

Isn't that possible today? I only wrote 1 letter and showed it to 1 dude to have my character tumble into interracial politics with a lot of work (and very nice roleplay... thank you little elves <3). I could probably turn it into a full time job if I wrote 2 letters.

You come up with a structure first, and only then think about working in it. This might allow one to dream of "an ideal system" but to me it sounds like a reversed way to work. Try the opposite approach: work first. Try to get a few guilds to do a joint operation and do that on such a frequency that this political structure will be a contribution to that cooperation. I can imagine that would yield very different results.

As I'm not a long term roleplayer veteran like some here, this lesson is perhaps old for others while it is new learned for me. I often heard the term "create RP" and thought plans and suggestions like these were golden tickets to a measurable quality of "creating RP". I learned now that this isn't the case. You don't need a big plans and tons of suggestions beyond count. That's the easy part! Everyone dreams of building the ideal government, being superman and pink pantyhose.
You need people that get down to it. I had brilliant plans for interracial politics as well, but it wasn't until I wrote one letter and walked over to the elves with it that there was roleplay.

EDIT: rereading my own post, I just want to add a clarification. I'm not opposing your effort! I think it's great to see people think about ways and formula's to roleplay. I think it's great you let your passions stimulate you to creativity. But I don't think the solution to great political RP is creating a structure first. Good luck with the studies man!

Skimming over the entire thread (by the looks of it I don't miss that much interesting by doing so) and just adressing your original post, Ephitos:

I think your idea is not bas a such, on the very prinicpal level. In theory an alliance council could bring a lot of interesting roleplay and events of the community.

But I fear this is not a very practical idea. For the first the scope is vast. 25 active members, coming up on 30 in cataclysm if you stick with 5 each is a momentous task. For reference, when I helped starting up the latest iteration of the Ironforge Senate it took more than 6 months to get more then 3 active regular senators (the plan was for 9 senators for reference) and 2/3 of a year before it really started to affect things on it's own. The tinker's court, which I am also assisting (but not sitting on), have trouble with regular activity and only got 4 sitting gearholders.
I don't think all alliance councils put together would form the 25 regular members you requested, let alone 30.

For the second it would be very difficult to have it without stepping on the toes of other councils. So the only alternatives I see is that either this council would become largely unimportant save for a few massive events á la the war council (which is only called together when needed and not regular) or all other councils are abolished. The former is bad because it will bore the members, then latter is bad because no matter how skilled we'd be in reorganising we'd lose a lot work, structure and internal function by doing so. Not to mention clashes between personae in the various councils will occur as the balance of power shifts (there are some very headstrong members in every council, I don't think putting them all in the same place is a good idea).
The third alternative, having it beside the other council is the worst one I think. It will cause conflict (of the ooc kind) with the senate and Council and probably completely eclipse the Tinker's court and the circle of Darnassus (unless I'm gauging the elven council wrong and it's as strong as the senate/council).

Third problem is jurisdiction. The Stormwind Council have this from time to time, the senate have this from time to time. It's basically when people feel that these organisations are overstepping their bounds and what they are willing to allow them to do. Causing a lot of drama... we usually see the aftershock on these fora every now and then.
This parliment of yours... would have it, but times 5 (6). Constantly having to defend it's position, work hard to just keep yourself from becoming marginalised, trying to make an effort... all while also trying to find the time to make events, play the game, and have fun. You can ask the Stormwind council nicely in case you're wondering how difficult that is.

Fourth problem is that of the lore... which is surprisingly what I think is the easiest one to overcome. There is lorewise some mention of the Theramore assembly but what powers it have is troublesome. Again, local councils have never really been a problem. The sw council is technically subservient of the king. When I was in the senate I put great weight on a ritual where we presented the meeting transcript to king Magni for his reviewal and decision. The laws made always have a base in what makes sense for the race in question and so on.
A inter-racial council would face problems on a whole different scale. Which leader do they answer to? What laws are they subject to? What cultural basis do they have? It'd be... difficult, to say the least

Fifth problem I see is the risk of being outvoted on core issues. If the elves try to force a ban against fel magic all over the alliance they and the draenei would form a 10 individual voting block... so if the gnomes, among whom fel magic is legal, wish to retain their law... they have to convince all dwarves and humans to vote in their favour (yeah right). Alternatively, if majority vote is needed, alien (as in mindset) members such as elves, draenei and gnomes will have trouble making their individual voices heard.

I must admit though, the idea of forming parties would be awesome.

All in all, I think on a theoretical level it's actually a good idea (if we ignore the inevitable damage caused to other councils). But on the practical level it's... I'm not going to say unachievable, but not far from. You'd need all the alliance political workhorses (the only ones I know of is me, Melnerag, Mandui, Julia, Joliwa Merandil/Blinkie/Sanara, Gogol, Drengi, Geldar.. there are more I just can't name them specifically) helping you more or less full time for the initial period (6-12 months), and that's assuming we get along

Which is ultimately the biggest challange... getting people to get along.

Overall... sorry to sound so negative. I wish I saw a way for this to work, but I fear I don't. If you really wish to go through with it however, best of luck from me.

I am surprised this thread haven't been locked yet as Amaryl said before. Frankly I find a lot of what's been going on in this thread to be on a way too low level, I'm a preschool teacher and I have seen 3 year olds having a more mature conversation. I thought the purpose of these forums was to provide input on a mature level and make our role playing better and more in sync. All of you should remind yourselves that you are voicing YOUR opinions and do not speak for any group of people. I am actually blaming all parts involved in this kind of behaviour, so please do not go "HE/SHE STARTED IT!". You should be ashamed people.

About the idea it's interesting in theory to role play such an organ but in my opinion this does not belong in the World of Warcraft. I see the factions as controlled by their King/Queen/Pope/Troll/Other fancy guy and that is what the current lore states, making it any other way would sure remove the mood that I'm looking for in Azeroth (wich could derail me to voicing my opinion on some of the current laws but that's not a matter for this thread). That's my opinion, feel free to think otherwise and refrain from bashing.

It's sad to see all these personal attacks.

Ephitos, if you believe in this project for real just do it. People's participation will tell if the idea is good or not. Working will surely help you more than flaming.

Well you know... I think Zinkle just summarized what I intended to say. Bloody hell I wasted a lot of words on saying just that

Efficiency: F

Wall of text says no?