Hypothetical question, changes and where?

siegmund wrote:Worgen join the Horde? That is something that seams very... Something i'd not change.

Would be weird for them to cuddle up with the Forsaken... And to have the tauren, the worgen and the forsaken all in the same army? The smell and fleas!

Had the worgen joined the horde instead of the alliance, they would have found allies in the forsaken. Because the plot would have demanded it.

Grim wrote:
Tauren join the Alliance. Sorry tauren, but you're too peaceful for the Horde.
Worgen join the Horde. They should have made more of Genn's dislike of the Alliance rather than just having him change his mind and be all like "Shucks, you guys are alright really!". And what faction has a better track record of accepting misfits and outcasts than the Horde?!

Or, alternatively, they join up with the Night Elves who split from the Alliance to together found Druidic utopia in Kalimdor.

I mean, come on. The ammount of times you see Tauren and Night Elf NPCs be buddy-buddy with one another is ridiculous. Kiss already!!

EDIT: ...Which brings another thing to mind: trans-factional neutral class organisations like the Earthern Ring, the Cenarion Circle and the Argent Crusade would not exist. The Cenarion Circle would be affiliated with the Night Elfs, the Argent Crusade would still be the Knights of the Silver Hand and affilicated with the Humans (and later the Draenei) and the Earthern Ring would be affiliated with the Horde. If they desperately need a Druid on the Horde side to give a druid-quest, they can just use Horde-affiliated Tauren, same thing with the Draenei/Wildhammers on the Alliance-side.

Ladies and Gentlemen here would be my plan for the next expansion: Invasion of the burning legion and the destruction of Azeroth.

Theme: All shit goes flying into space.

the opening cinematic starts with most mayor factions leaders dying including varian, thrall and others. a comet destroying the cathedral of light; A fully succesfull genocide of the bloodelves, because they're the most magic using so obviously that's where the invasion "starts".

the skies grow red, most terrains, and most certainly lowbie zones becomes searing-gorge/burning steppe type area's.

there are fucking max level elite demons every-where at every city gate or atleast from the cities that aren't conquered. demons are slaughtering every-body, the influence of the Light on demons is vastly reduced due to the lack of hope.  The dreanei ship, seeing the end of the world at the hands of the burning legion like they've seen so many times before takes sail for a new dimension, taking all the dreanei with them, bar those too stupid to go with their race. You will not see your friends again.

Naaru are being torn apart, left and right, as the forsaken decide to break off from the horde with the remnants of the blood-elves, and decide to plague-bomb shit everywhere. they can. creating a wasteland of Arathi highlands.

the nightelven forests are burned down in huge forest-fires. and the only left is for the remnants of the alliance and the horde to flee back into the dark-portal and take refuge in shattrath, the only city available in this expansion bar undercity for the newly risen faction.

the legion follows them into outland, and the first step (leveling to max level) is done pushing the first waves of burning legion out back to the portal. and set-up a defense.

Then we get to the good part. Every hour/couple of hours, huge fucking waves of  elite legion bash through the portal, going straight to sack shattrath and flood the zones. and this our max level players need to stop.

the best part! if the demons do reach shattrath, all justice-points,-conquest points honor points etc- are wiped from the entire server's account. because you should fucking defend your city. There aren't few of these demons in a wave, and they're strong, they're elite, you won't be able to stop them with 20 dudes, nor with 40.

the good news you can get the best epic gear,(not through silly raids) by stopping these raids, and you can get PvP gear by killing the opposing faction during said raids. because killing these things gives conquest points etc. (The interesting part, if you kill all the alliance as horde you might not have enough support to stop the wave and the alliance killing was for naught but pleasure and disgruntlement of the entire server)

The next patch will see a second portal open on outland, and the same thing happens, but this time there's a raid instance attached where the portal can get closed.

but you can already see this is a pointless affair, you can't stop the legion; you're dying, but they keep throwing more stuff at you, every fucking wave, at some point you get to tired to lift your hands to stop the legion. You see this through simple game-mechanics.

The next patch you'll see a small invasion back into a azeroth, to go to karazhan and fetch a maguffin that medivh possessed. and its a three-way race between forsaken, horde and alliance to get the maguffin, and with that help stop the attacks on undercity/stop the waves from coming through the dark-portal. all the while being besieged by the legion (the waves through the portal and losing your points still exist so yeah you're fucked).

and the expansion stops when the outland is closed off from azeroth, leaving our heros broken and on a broken world with their home being shattered like-wise.

the next expansion will be the reconquering of azeroth.

this also means you cannot roll new draenei or blood-elves characters only the ones that exist now, will still be alive, but you won't see no-more new lore for your faction.

I would -love- I mean seriously love if they made like unstopable world bosses or something, destroying shize everywhere. Sure you could have some guys as hard as now for gear but otherwise a 1000xOodnasta strong thing walking around and kick'n arse.

I mean i'd least force people to try and work together.

The one I always will wonder about is what if Arthas did not do Stratholme.

As for the earlier debate, I do not think it is sexism as much as just poor character writing, in fact Sylvanas is prob the most well written character in the game.

Lexgrad wrote:Sylvanas is prob the most well written character in the game.

Lol.

As a character can you think of any with as much depth, not talking about story but depth of feeling and of character?

Thrall, maybe and Illidan. Most of the other males in WoW are shallow characters really.

Lexgrad wrote:As a character can you think of any with as much depth, not talking about story but depth of feeling and of character?

High Elf Sylvanas had a wide range of emotions and a great deal of personal strength, for all of the three missions that she lasted (or was it 2?).

Post-undeath Sylvanas is a whiny, self-absorbed idiot who does nothing but act like a bitch a a lot fails completley to hide the fact she's a mass-murdering psychopath from her supposed allies.

No, Sylvanas is not an example of a good WarCraft character.

She's pretty, though.

Drustai wrote:

Lexgrad wrote:Sylvanas is prob the most well written character in the game.

Lol.

Come off it now Drustai, you've stated that Goku Wrynn Super Saiyan 2 is a good character.

I don't think "not-terrible" and "good" qualify as being the same thing, Cerik.

The problem with Sylvanas, is that they tried to make her have depth but fell flat. In practice she comes across as... well, basically a Lich Queen. They have gone too far on the villain angle, and left behind what could have been a strong, conflicted character. Every time they try to insert a sympathetic angle to her, it just comes across as tacky in light of everything she does.

What's wrong with a Lich Queen? We've seen her fall from her graces of a strong conflicted, passionate character whom cared about her people, through two expansion packs into Cataclysm which showed her as a ruthless tactician and pragmatist with 'End justifies the means' tattooed on her forehead. Too many characters have a good side in everything.

What's wrong with it is that she's supposed to be friends with a lot of living lads who may not appreciate her Lich-y-ness a whole lot.

Then again, that conflict between the totally evil zombies and the geen-loving tauren has been a constant and very nice seed for role-play.

The depth of characters do not matter in wow beyond the role they're supposed to be fullfilling to get the story from point A to point B.

WoW isn't a character driven piece, its a plot driven piece and which ever vehicle the plot needs to get moving becomes (ab)used for it.

And as such; a one note messianic character like varian or Thrall is a lot better written than a jaina or sylvanas that has to fullfill multiple functions that don't mash very well.

Amaryl wrote:WoW isn't a character driven piece, its a plot driven piece and which ever vehicle the plot needs to get moving becomes (ab)used for it.

Don't forget that gameplay takes providence even over the plot. The plot is there to serve the game, the characters are there to serve the plot.

Sanara wrote:

Lexgrad wrote:As a character can you think of any with as much depth, not talking about story but depth of feeling and of character?

High Elf Sylvanas had a wide range of emotions and a great deal of personal strength, for all of the three missions that she lasted (or was it 2?).

Post-undeath Sylvanas is a whiny, self-absorbed idiot who does nothing but act like a bitch a a lot fails completley to hide the fact she's a mass-murdering psychopath from her supposed allies.

No, Sylvanas is not an example of a good WarCraft character.

Rather than whiny and self-absorbed I see her as morose and tragic. Her flaws are drawn from her first desire for revenge on Arthas and onc that was done she was to, She jumped, saw a hell (I can never decide if it was real hell or a val'kyr trick but it is meaningless for this debate) and now she is acting in fear, doing anything to stay alive. Revenge done and the kicker is this hell she is in is better than the one that awaits. Great story.

Through this she keeps what makes Sylvanas, sylvanas. Her char is not defined by the story she has developed to the story. Very rare in wow.

But I think I agree with all the posters here and you do with me, I never said that it was great or ok how blizzard write, I think some of that they do is predictable and as Amaryl says they use characters as vehicles to come to conclusions they as writters desire or to what would be cool.

My point is I do not think it is sexist in nature, it is just how blizzard does things. You could easily point at an idiot like Varian and cry sexism, it isnt he is just a bad character.

As unpredictable as it may seem, I personally feel Sylvanas is a brilliant character. I always believe there is a common misconception here, Sylvanas is not supposed to be friends with the Horde, we're simply a tactical ally. She simply does what is best for her Kingdom and her people - I say there is nothing wrong with a mother who "cares". In addition, we in the Horde can agree that smiting you lesser Alliance races is fun and a rather all encompassing hobby.

I fail to see why a Leader must be good. The Horde hate us, we effectively hate them. The Alliance hate us, we despise them. Why must we be civil and lovely if our agreement is only a meagre tactical advantage for the Horde? And that would be the only reason why the Horde keep us. Also, the Horde would never attack us, even with the combined force of the Alliance it would be -very- costly. Furthermore, we do not need depth or emotion. We are Forsaken and quantify everything with logic, religion and our thirst for power - there is no need to care in our world.  

I believe the Forsaken story-line is not out of fear. From Sylvanas's "fall" the Forsaken are aware that they have an eternity of darkness/ a place of random souls that isn't very nice to contend with once they die. ( Truly die)
I rather like the idea, that the Forsaken see their "unlife" (i.e. how they currently are) as their afterlife. In the other cultures of the Horde it is supposed to be a paradise were you meet up with all your friends and it is simply wonderful ( or at least that's how mundane creatures such as the Orcs work). The Forsaken, do not have that. So they are attempting to create their "afterlife" on Azeroth. (Or that could just be me humouring myself with this idea.) Saying that, the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow does offer ascension, yet that is not used by -every- forsaken.

The Forsaken effectively have enough power to wipe out a vast proportion of the Horde, or Alliance if they wanted to. The forsaken military after all, is the most efficient army on Azeroth.  While in the process adding to their ever increasing armies - how unlucky for you mortals.  I feel in the future, something drastic is going to  happen to my beloved nation, we have all this "power" yet we have yet to act upon it.


(The reason we have not openly attacked anything yet, is due to logic. Nothing more. )

You could argue that Sylvanas is just a plain hypocrite, consorting to the methods of the one thing she hates in order to survive and destroy that threat. Cynical and pragmatic, only caring for power. Right.

The issue I have with Sylvanas is that were it not for World of Warcraft and its need for an Undead Race, Sylvanas probably wouldn't have survived for that long and the Forsaken would never have joined the Horde. Seeing that there is now essentially no difference between the Scourge and the Forsaken, and that you have her surrounded by Argent Crusaders, Ebon Knights (who recognize that their state of undeath is not something admirable), the mechanics of the game and the cravings of Sylvanas' fanbase makes her and the entire faction feel like a cop out. She's only alive/the faction is only there to supply a fourth faction and to appeal to the guys who liked the Undead.

Now, one can always pull the "tactical alliance" bs for quite some time, but to me, Thrall's Horde (if it ever stood for anything) stood for honor and being able to rise above one's circumstances and never to give in to desperate measures, which Saurfang reflects upon in ICC. This is something for instance that Hellscream failed to do by giving in to the demands of his situation and drinking the demon blood to kill Cenarius, and was thus condemned by Thrall for it. With this in mind, a "tactical alliance" doesn't exactly make sense with this line of thought. Not to mention the Blood Elves are totally cool with another Scourge on the rise, as long as they're allied with them.

Either one sees that Forsaken doesn't exactly make sense where they are atm, or you go with the idea that Thrall is just a hypocrite as much as Sylvanas is. Or maybe Thrall is so scared of the Alliance, cause they're always out for to kill the Horde, after all. Horde are just defending themselves (lol)

Enough of that rant, as for what lore should've been changed, there is quite a lot, but hey.

Kill Sylvanas. As explained per above.
Erase or revamp the entirety of the Wrath of the Lich King Expansion, from the nonsensical Death Knights to the laughable Lich King. Save for maybe Ulduar.
Killed Thrall quite a long while ago.
Removed Draenei Females and made Draenei society a theocratic society pervaded by homosexuality.
Garrosh would've kept his initial character arc.
Night Elves never joining the Alliance. If one goes with the idea that Forsaken shouldn't have joined the Horde, then might as well take two in one and have Night Elves not join the Alliance either.
Taran Zhu and the entirety of the pandaren race exterminated. Way overdue.

Prolly forgotten some stuff. There is minor stuff for instance with the overall lack of consequence in the story etc (especially in Cataclysm), but once again, that's due to its MMO format and Blizz not really willing to stray from it.

Zaraj wrote:Removed Draenei Females and made Draenei society a theocratic society pervaded by homosexuality.

Wait, what?

Zaraj wrote:Taran Zhu and the entirety of the pandaren race exterminated. Way overdue.

Wait, what??

erwtenpeller wrote:

Zaraj wrote:Removed Draenei Females and made Draenei society a theocratic society pervaded by homosexuality.

Wait, what?

Zaraj wrote:Taran Zhu and the entirety of the pandaren race exterminated. Way overdue.

Wait, what??

Come on, man. No sane person likes draenei females.

The other is pretty self-explanatory. Here's hoping the dark below does something to either of these two points.

Whaaaaaaa....?

erwtenpeller wrote:Whaaaaaaa....?

He has a diffrent opinion then you. Breathe slowly and try to acknowledge it.

He doesn't like pandaren.

He's entitled his opinion - this thread doesn't ask you take the opinions of others, nor the realisability of said changes into account. It's just fantasy, pure and simply, uninhibited by annoying things like what other people think and what is feasible to change from both a creative and a business point of view.

Personally, I can relate - I don't like Worgen and I would have prefered not to have them as a playable race.