[A] Campaign: Stromgarde Reclamation [28/1/13 - 31/1/13]

Emrys wrote:

Krogon Devilstep wrote:In my humble opinion, the extremely clever smoke screen at the front gate, combined with the lofty positions of ranged classess would of meant if that the alliance had of just charged the gate...

...it would of ended very, very badly for them. However, the alliance knew from past experience.

Regardless, all the tactical choices were sound.

I highly doubt it to be honest... You guys had far far more people, no way our healers would have been able to keep up. And some ranged could have sniped us down when done with the masses downstairs. Yes, I could not have been charged by three people, cooldowns popped, but we would have lost, it just would have taken a little bit longer and thus would have been more fun.

And an entire army sneaking in without us noticing anything....? That did not really add to the realism...

not up to the alliance where you position look-outs :p

Emrys wrote:

Krogon Devilstep wrote:In my humble opinion, the extremely clever smoke screen at the front gate, combined with the lofty positions of ranged classess would of meant if that the alliance had of just charged the gate...

...it would of ended very, very badly for them. However, the alliance knew from past experience.

Regardless, all the tactical choices were sound.

I highly doubt it to be honest... You guys had far far more people, no way our healers would have been able to keep up. And some ranged could have sniped us down when done with the masses downstairs. Yes, I could not have been charged by three people, cooldowns popped, but we would have lost, it just would have taken a little bit longer and thus would have been more fun.

And an entire army sneaking in without us noticing anything....? That did not really add to the realism...

I wasn't online when the decision was made to use that point of entry, however - it's to be expected that nobody knows Strom better than the Arathorians. They'd have known of that breach and the tactical advantage it was. What may have seemed strange from your side of the fence was logic on ours.

As for the calls about dragons/use of flying mounts/ropes being cut etc. Flying mounts were used to get over a mound and into position. A mound that IC'ly anyone with one hand and stumps for feet could have climbed over. Just the way the game presents that bit of ground made it impossible for us to walk up it.

The numbers thing, yeah. Not great. At the same time, however, we invited guilds to be involved with the entire campaign, and we seperated our forces yesterday. Today was a siege of Strom. This wasn't about skirmishes and it was IC circumstances that left you guys with such dwindled forces.

We didn't come up with this campaign for the Alliance to win easily. We wanted as many guilds participating as possible, and I made that very clear. I'm sorry that you felt this night was bad for the horde, but it was your own IC disagreements that led to your lacking forces :/

Krogon Devilstep wrote:

Emrys wrote:

Krogon Devilstep wrote:In my humble opinion, the extremely clever smoke screen at the front gate, combined with the lofty positions of ranged classess would of meant if that the alliance had of just charged the gate...

...it would of ended very, very badly for them. However, the alliance knew from past experience.

Regardless, all the tactical choices were sound.

I highly doubt it to be honest... You guys had far far more people, no way our healers would have been able to keep up. And some ranged could have sniped us down when done with the masses downstairs. Yes, I could not have been charged by three people, cooldowns popped, but we would have lost, it just would have taken a little bit longer and thus would have been more fun.

And an entire army sneaking in without us noticing anything....? That did not really add to the realism...

not up to the alliance where you position look-outs :p

Emrys you seem to argue alot of OOC stuff for an IC event.

And the entire army split into three sections, one using the front gate, two using the two gaps in the walls. Perfectly sound, and good use of terrain.

Scouts -can- be a valuable asset.


Can we all get over this now and appriciate there was a RP event at all? Gosh. It was the Stromgarde Reclamation campaign, why are you so upset you lost a city you never use?

Emrys wrote:And an entire army sneaking in without us noticing anything....? That did not really add to the realism...

Well.. THe sneaky army WAS lead by Helmut Spoon. Can't blame him for being the greatest "sneaker" the Alliance ever had, ever.

Sincere apologies to any Horde participants who feel this event was unfair or simply unfun.
Our objective with this was always to create RP for people and provide them with fun WPvP battles.

As for the flying mounts. As stated before, the Alliance force was split into three sections; one to attack each possible entry point into Stromgarde (namely the front gates, the small breach in the side wall, and the large breach in the back wall). All members participating had been told not to use flying mounts. Personally, I led the attack from the rear, and I can assure you that the people attacking from that end did not use flying mounts, other than to get up the small mound mentioned before.

Concerning the numbers. Yes, there was a heavy difference in numbers, and it could (should?) have been done entirely differently. But ask yourself, from an IC stand point, if you're about to besiege a fortified city, would you cut half your forces and risk defeat?

A round based system with equal numbers allowing everyone at least one fight would have been an option, like in Jade Forest.

I'm not moaning mind you, I didn't attend the Arathi stuff. But there are ways of equalising numbers.

Granted. As I said, things could have (should have?) been done differently to ensure everyone had fun.
Again, apologies to any Horde who had a pain of a time tonight.

Valdar/Melan wrote:Sincere apologies to any Horde participants who feel this event was unfair or simply unfun.
Our objective with this was always to create RP for people and provide them with fun WPvP battles.

As for the flying mounts. As stated before, the Alliance force was split into three sections; one to attack each possible entry point into Stromgarde (namely the front gates, the small breach in the side wall, and the large breach in the back wall). All members participating had been told not to use flying mounts. Personally, I led the attack from the rear, and I can assure you that the people attacking from that end did not use flying mounts, other than to get up the small mound mentioned before.

Concerning the numbers. Yes, there was a heavy difference in numbers, and it could (should?) have been done entirely differently. But ask yourself, from an IC stand point, if you're about to besiege a fortified city, would you cut half your forces and risk defeat?

1.As one of the people who had been on the walls, I'll tell you that flying mounts had been used, something which led to the rapid demise of nearly everyone on the walls, their advantage which was in terrain utterly lost.
The group that had led the attack from the rear was quite a surprise though, and a quite ingenious one.
2.The heavy difference in numbers, could be an agreeable OOC pain, but, at least in my honest opinion, number differences could be solved if people from every guild could find a common meeting time. (Example: The weekends) which would add in numbers to both sides, and hopefully even the odds. That could also be justified with the duration of sieges, a siege isn't something that lasts a day, sieges can last weeks, so an event in the future could be continued in the weekend if people would agree to it, so everyone could enjoy them.
I'd also like to say, yes, it would be clear that if the alliance pushed that far, they'd likely have a numerical advantage, but [x] to one is a little overboard, since one of the groups alone had more players then all the horde defenders together, let alone all of them.
Add that to gryphon's and any advantage the horde had via terrain was lost, since they just dropped on us.
3.Now, what I'm going to mention now was that I saw quite a few of the alliance players killing the horde players the moment they spawned and were attempting to retreat inside the keep (Also being one of the victims of it) As well as doing the same thing after the keep had been taken. Few of them would just kill us when we were on our way out of the area, after being defeated. It's quite irritating to respawn so many times just to exit a small area after an RP victory had been obtained. The ganking continued even when the horde forces had left the fort and were RPing retreating out of Arathi.


Personally, I'm quite fine (Not extremely happy, but not unhappy either) with the event, except for the gryphon's appearing without notice and the spawnkilling caused by a few.
The numbers, yeah, were quite off, but it WAS at the time a battle that was being lost, however, if people want more even numbers, they should consider the school/work schedule of their friends and just set such an event in the weekend, so everyone can be free.

In my opinion, as my first World-RP-PvP this was an "okay" experience (Spawnkill + Gryphon + Ganking after the battle ruined part of it), and I hope both sides learn more from it. If people are so upset OOCly (Instead of ICly) That they lost an unused location (For example, I'm just upset that I couldn't walk around trying to get out, without getting killed), they should know that in a war, you can reclaim territories, and I'm looking forward to seeing more RP-WPVP between the two factions as they battle across Azeroth, maybe even get to a combat-able level until then.

P.S. As a (Currently) level 70 who couldn't stand a chance against level 90's, I gotta say both sides have some pretty good fighters and I enjoyed watching the battle. In character, I was there just as a medic, and I enjoyed the roleplay of patching up a few of the troops on the horde side.

Overall:
- Keep people under control (Have them follow the battle's rules set out by the people who organise it.) and
- Find a time where as many people as possible from both sides can be on.

Hope my text wall and me repeating myself dosen't bother you.

The campaign feels like it's over.

Is it, though? It says it'll continue tommorow.

What's on the schedule?

I think (THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT) that the campaign has been concluded.

After speaking with Horde command, they have made it clear that there will not be RP-PvP tomorrow. However, if anyone wishes to hang around in Arathi for patrols/rebuilding/other activities, they're more than welcome to do so!

After all that arguing that I will not participate in here is my final video. A more theatrical one for KoS itself than a pvp one this time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rIHOLiPeLM&feature=youtu.be

to be honest I dont think it being on a weekday was bad It was more because it was so early I know from experiance most hodeside [players are workers.. as such most would still be on there way home when the event began.. so I would rarther say host it an hour later rarther than only do weekends.. mainly because as with me and a few other poor saps.. I am a weekend worker

For those that did not comprehend Emrys or my post,
on the Hordeside, a lot of planning went into the defence, and rather then having our epic last stand against a greater force, a few people dropped out of the air on their flying mounts and knocked most of us off the wall.

This turned what could've been an epic battle into a five to one zergfest.
And I sincerely do not believe this made it more enjoyable for either side.

On the first day, Mithradin plunged from the sky on their mounts ganking me silly during the battle.
On the second day, it was Bloodwind, whom attempted to gank a bit during the roleplay that followed the battles.
I am disappointed that it was roleplayers whom plunged from the sky on the third day.

That aside, my thanks to those whom set it up, I will still gladly partake in future events. Though if the numbers are this uneven I will not remain on that location IC wise.

Ledgic Caan wrote:
I wasn't online when the decision was made to use that point of entry, however - it's to be expected that nobody knows Strom better than the Arathorians. They'd have known of that breach and the tactical advantage it was. What may have seemed strange from your side of the fence was logic on ours.

The points of entry were decided before we even left Stormwind. When I attended the strategy meeting on Sunday, they had clearly already been planned before the meeting. I felt it was a good strategy that, for a change, actually made a difference. Efforts were made on the day to make sure we weren't spotted approaching these weaknesses in the walls.

I came in through the side entrance and didn't see any Alliance on flying mounts from that direction. Towards the end of the battle, I did see one Alliance character in the air, but that wasn't until after the fighting was finished. I saw a Horde character in the air in the middle of the battle, but I didn't see him attack from that position. It's entirely possible that he had got impatient about resurrecting, resurrected mid-phase but took to the sky to keep out of the battle until the phase was over.

Personally, I think it's realistic to have one side or the other outnumbered from time to time. I've certainly fought plenty of battles where the Horde outnumbered the Alliance. Trying to balance the numbers rarely works. as was evidenced yesterday at the farm where we went in with a group that was supposed to be equal to or slightly weaker than the defending forces but, after three rounds where we won at more balanced odds, found ourselves counterattacked by a larger Horde force. At the time, I thought that was fair enough as we had had more than our fair share of advantage to that point.

All in all everyone had a great time then

I saw a Horde character in the air in the middle of the battle

Might have been me on Cenalia, I didn't participate but I did watch for five minutes or so, as well as inbetween a few arena matches. One thing I can safely say from the sideline though is that 5-10 allies flew up on the wall. Think I even took a screenshot or two from above, will post those later.
But it was fun to watch the bloody mess.

Solanum wrote:
Rather then having our epic last stand against a greater force, a few people dropped out of the air on their flying mounts and knocked most of us off the wall.
This turned what could've been an epic battle into a five to one zergfest.
And I sincerely do not believe this made it more enjoyable for either side.

Solanum wrote:
I am disappointed that it was roleplayers whom plunged from the sky on the third day.

Thaaaat pretty much sums it up, yeah.
Most of the enjoyement WAS lost due to rulebreaking or ganking, and it is VERY EASY TO SEE why a lot of the horde members WERE Dissapointed about the event, it's not that we lost, it's how we lost, but personally, What I'm wondering is WHY if the other members of the alliance saw their men on gryphons, did they not act upon it, I can assume that if they had so large numbers, they should have sorted the issue out prior to the assault, or , if the rulebreakers wouldn't have listened, just let them charge into their doom and start the event after they've all died.

I still had an enjoyable time roleplaying a medic though *Note, that does not mean it was fun for people to instantly arrive on the walls and slaughter everyone, then repeatedly kill us the moment we respawn*, that being only a personal opinion, however my opinion here should count little, as I did not take part in the past two days of the battle, therefore the third did not weigh as much with me as it did with the others, add to that the fact that I was a much lower level and I would be one shotted. I went there to see how a World PvP is like and to roleplay as part of it mostly, but... I really do think the alliance has some issues to fix up.

Basically, if the alliance still dosen't understand what all the horde players are trying to tell them,

We aren't bothered that we lost, most of us knew that we would lose and hoped for a great last battle which would be entertaining for both sides, instead, what we recieved was gryphons and spawnkilling, when the representatives of both alliance and horde clearly agreed that that would not happen. Heck, even inside the fortress, a few people got death gripped into the crowd of alliance after our defeat, when we were supposed to leave, and we were slaughtered for no reason, leading to everyone getting angry and starting to kill each other.
We aren't upset with the fact that you did it, we're upset with how you did it. For a lot of the members on the horde side it felt like an honor farm all in all, as the rules set at the beginning of the event were not respected. Does that make it clear enough to understand? The numbers might have been justifiable through IC circumstances that the horde was pushed back, and OOCly that people were not on, but the rest?

Even if, in my previous post I tried to relate to both sides and reach a peaceful agreement, I really hope that the alliance players can see the point Solanum and Emrys, as well as countless others are trying to reach.

I agree that using flying mounts in battle was bad. So many saying they saw them (and screenshots?) must mean it happened. (I was in the group coming from the back, so didn't see.)

In general I enjoyed the event. The rp around it was fun, and pvp-wise the second day was the greatest with the small skirmish groups, making it really feel like all of Arathi was a battlefield with skirmishes for important positions. Even with the kinks, I hope more of this will come up - Horde needs its payback, no?

day four is cancelled then? >.>

If it was Dwarves upon gryphons, that is explainable through our Gryphon Riders who attended. If it wasn't, I have no idea who that was then. We also gave our fair share of warnings to those in our raidgroup to quit attacking ressers or be kicked from event. Didn't go that far luckily, but I'm sorry for the fact that it occured from our guild in the first place.

Reading all of this drama, I'm glad the Shatterskulls pulled out when they did. Heh.

One think I'd like to say is that I don't see the problem with flying mounts in-character. Griffon riders are a thing. Wind Riders are a thing. Storm Crows are a thing. Heck, even freakin' frost wyrms, are a thing.

But I get that through the hectic swiftness of pvp mechanics they can be a pain in the ass. When Drustais frost wyrm terrorised the horde forces in the Jade Forest, we decided to handle it as a dungeon-mastered event. Drustai and Skarain watched it on horde alts, and everyone had a good time. It felt like it was a part of the campaign, even though there was no actual PvP.

erwtenpeller wrote:
One think I'd like to say is that I don't see the problem with flying mounts in-character. Griffon riders are a thing. Wind Riders are a thing. Storm Crows are a thing. Heck, even freakin' frost wyrms, are a thing.

I don't think the issue is with flying mounts as much as it is with that the two sides apparently didn't play with the same rule set.

Again, it is very regrettable that certain individuals used flying mounts during the battle or attacked/killed/camped ressers.
This is something that shouldn't have happened, and the fault lies atleast partly with the raid leader; me in this case.

However, all participants had been told NOT to use flying mounts, and were also told repeatedly not to kill or attack any ressers.

I am not (nor do I believe anyone else is) saying that those Hordies saying there was an improper use of flying mounts are making things up. I am simply saying that during the relative chaos of the battle I didn't personally -see- any flying mounts; that doesn't mean there wern't any.

As said before, this last even could have been handled much better than it was, and I'll be the first to admit that. However, I do feel like the same arguments have been presented about a dozen times each in this thread, and perhaps it is time to look to the future and new events.

Kingdom of Stromgarde extends its thanks to every single participant in these events, be it Horde or Alliance. We have had great fun and I'm hoping that everyone also has, despite the unsmooth hic-ups.
The WPvP for tonight has been cancelled, but any Alliance guild willing to remain to RP in the Highlands are very welcome to do so, and will be comfortable within the scorched walls of Stromgarde.

will be comfortable within the scorched walls of Stromgarde

Comfortable, right.