Re: [A] The Ebon Shroud

by **Yarnaat** Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:55 pm

Indeed they are! I am also aware of that I'm only one player. Though, how does that stop me from ignoring a few things that take the fun out of the game for me? Often I bend myself after what they say is lore, but not at all times (That means when it screams "Bullshit" directly at my face). Besides, in this example I believe I've written more than enough information in my previous posts. Take a look at them and not only my view on the way they change lore so that it fits game mechanics.

by **Yarnaat** Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:58 pm

Lexgrad/Dreth wrote:(also necromancy is more than Shadow)

Copied from Wikipedia because I'm too lazy to think:
An example is a demonstration with the aim of informing others of how a task should be performed.

The example doesn't have to be perfectly like the case as long as it shows what you mean.

by **Yarnaat** Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:02 pm

Lexgrad/Dreth wrote:I was gonna say there is no reason you can not see the light and shadow as either ends of the same thing. But mostly I agree with Dru, It might be dumb lore, but it is lore so its what we have to go with.

I added a few points in lore that she jumped over in my previous posts. Care to take a look at them too pretty please?

by **Lexgrad** Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:09 pm

No the NFL is on! My replies will be one or two lines :p

(will read it all later dw Smile

by **Yarnaat** Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:13 pm

Pfff, excuses.

by **Thelos** Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:29 pm

Soolie Bentspring wrote:Indeed they are! I am also aware of that I'm only one player. Though, how does that stop me from ignoring a few things that take the fun out of the game for me?

It is perfectly fine if you do not want to involve some of the elements in your roleplay, as long as you do not deny others from involving said elements if they're clearly integral to the lore. It's okay if you decide to stay away from the Light on your Death Knight, as long as you do not argue against the possibility of others playing that particular story OOC. IC you can of course express any opinion you want, as long as it makes sense for your character to have said opinion.

Soolie Bentspring wrote:Often I bend myself after what they say is lore, but not at all times (That means when it screams "Bullshit" directly at my face). Besides, in this example I believe I've written more than enough information in my previous posts. Take a look at them and not only my view on the way they change lore so that it fits game mechanics.

The bolded parts are what rub me the wrong way. What Blizzard says is lore is lore. There is no distinction. There is no such thing as a "personal" lore for the Blizzard lore to come into conflict with. There is lore, Blizzard lords over it, and that's that. As such it is theirs to change however they want. Keep in mind that it is the latest statement by Blizzard that holds the highest authority in debates about lore. The newer statements overwrite the older ones. That's how it works. This may be frustrating to accept if they change something you do not like in a way you hate, but really, I think its a healthier attitude to just accept it and roll with it.

And, frankly, just because a change in lore is motivated by game mechanics or other gameplay reason, doesn't necissarily have to mean it is a bad change. I for one really like the concept of Undead attempting to use the Light and being burned by it, going trough an intense test of faith as Drustai described. I think there are very rich roleplaying opportunites in that. Now, I suggest you accept the fact that a story like that is within the lore, and let people roleplay it if they want to. In return we will let you deny this possiblity for your own character however you see fit.

by **Yarnaat** Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:34 pm

Oh if in those cases I never enforce my opinions on others, no, but in this case I have lore backing me up. Check out my biggest posts on page 13 in this topic.

by **Yarnaat** Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:35 pm

One more thing, I also agreed to some things that were said. Read my posts properly and you shall see.

by **Thelos** Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:35 pm

Thelos wrote: Keep in mind that it is the latest statement by Blizzard that holds the highest authority in debates about lore. The newer statements overwrite the older ones. That's how it works.

by **Yarnaat** Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:37 pm

In case you didn't notice I gave after on those few points where newer statements by Blizzard have been made, however most of them don't break with what I've stated. For example the part where forsaken priests regained a few of their senses.

by **Thelos** Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:45 pm

Then I'm afraid I simply do not understand your position. Are you saying it should be possible for Undead to channel the Light, or not? Because the blue quote from Blizzard makes it very straightforward that it should be, while you still seem to argue against it.

by **Yarnaat** Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:06 pm

It states that Forsaken are able to, yes. I think my example of how it's similar to the sun and darkness explains my point of view pretty well.

Oh, and one more thing. The Light and Necromancy are quite like the sun and shadow. When the light comes the shadow goes away. Though, if you make sure of that the light doesn't cover the entire area there will still be darkness as well. Though, if you let the light cover the entire area the shadow will be gone.

In this example the shadow symbolizes the necrotic energy that keeps a Death Knight up quite a lot like life energy. If you let the light cover the entire area that shadow will be gone, and so will the Death Knight's life energy. He or she can't continue if there is no energy.

However there are no records of Death Knights doing so (The only examples are Arthas and Sir Zirlek who are/were not dead). Plus they are not priests like some Forsaken are.

If a Death Knight for some silly reason should end up channeling the Light my example of the sun and darkness shows what I think. If it's kept at a moderate level they will be fine, but because Death Knights also have a need to feast on souls I think that hunger would grow. I doubt that they'd manage to push it as far as to their own end as they'd most likely faint or whatever Undead do due to a lack of energy before they get that far. They'd not explode or turn into ashes, but their necrotic energy would fade. The less necrotic energy there is available the more weak does the Death Knight become.

Heh, we've strayed a bit from what this discussion was originally was about, haven't we? Ah well, you find what I think about fel, arcane and that stuff in earlier posts.

by **Drustai** Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:11 pm

Soolie Bentspring wrote:Blizzard always make up stuff like that when they need an excuse. If they didn't they couldn't have let priests and paladins heal forsaken and death knights. If this was an entirely RP based game they wouldn't have let them.
Because of this I choose not to take it seriously.

Your choice, but it is canon. I personally choose to accept it due to that.

Durning the starting quests you are ordered to kill someone who was dear to you in life, however you don't remember said person.

This is when you were still under the Lich King's control.

Again, read my quote, which takes place after you have broken free and after you have taken Acherus from the Scourge.

"The haze has been lifted. I can see as clearly now as the day that I plunged the Ashbringer into my own heart to free my father's cursed soul: my last memory as a free man." -Darion Mograine

Not to mention...

"I was once a paladin, . Now the Light shuns me, for my sins are too great." -Ormus the Penitent

After you are free, you remember who and what you were.

s written in lore forsaken often take on new names or the names written on tombs as they don't remember their own name, or life as a living for that sake.

While a few do forget their names, most do not. Many who take new names take them to spite their previous lives, not because they forget them.

"Like their Dark Lady, Forsaken keep the names they had when they were alive. As most Forsaken are human, these tend to be human names. If a Forsaken cannot remember their name, they may make up a suitable name or read one from a headstone. Some invent surnames that imply their desire to eradicate the Scourge." -World of WarCraft RPG, Core Rulebook

In fact, part of the criteria of being a Forsaken is in remembering your past.

"Becoming a Forsaken is a difficult process. The undead plague must kill you, you must rise as a being that remembers its past, and fi nally you must escape the Lich King’s control. These events do not happen often, but often enough that the Forsaken exist as a viable race." -World of WarCraft RPG, Core Rulebook

Sylvanas has always very clearly remembered her past... the locket quest, for example, or her recent leader story.

I don't know where you're getting this "majority" from.

"Valdred: I... died? Yes, you're right. I died. It was an orc... he cut off my hands, and left me to die.

Valdred: These aren't my hands! THESE AREN'T MY HANDS!
[...]
Valdred: I suppose this is my fate then. Hah! Part of an undead army. Somehow I never considered that I might end up fighting for the Forsaken."

"Lilian: Get away from me, you abomination!
Player: I'm not an abomination, I'm simply undead. I just want to speak with you.
Lilian: The undead are a taint upon Azeroth! Every one of you creatures deserves to be destroyed!
Player: Lilian, do you realize that you are undead yourself?
Lilian: No. You're lying! My father will protect me!
"

"Lilian: "My name is Lilian Voss. Before I died, I was a member of the Scarlet Crusade. My father, High Priest Voss, raised me to be a weapon against the plagued. I studied stealth, sorcery, martial arts, anything to make myself stronger. I gave up my childhood for him. Then, as fate would have it, I died and returned as... this. My father instantly forgot me and, when I returned, ordered me executed."

"Coleman Farthing: The Agamand family was the most prosperous family in Tirisfal Glades. I used to work their mills...before the plague. When the Scourge first came, the Agamands fortified their home and convinced those in their employ to remain and help them defend. We were fools, but at least we were loyal fools. The Agamands, in their pride, doomed us to undeath. And now they are minions of the Scourge! Serve the Forsaken by defeating the Agamands who fell to the Plague. Serve me by bringing me their remains."

"Bethor Iceshard: Astonishing! The book you retrieved belongs to no one other than Gunther Arcanus! Gunther was a skilled Necromancer in life; he and I were friends and comrades-in-arms, before the Plague."

"Bethor: Long ago Gunther and I, along with the now Scourge Necromancer Thule Ravenclaw, were friends and students within the Kirin Tor - a society of mages in Dalaran. Gunther and I both fell to the Plague, but I thought he either remained dead, or was raised into the ranks of the Lich King."

"Gunther Arcanus: But...what is this new enchantment upon it...Bethor? He is in Lordaeron? If he still exists, then perhaps he too escaped from the Lich King's grasp..."

"Jeremiah Payson: I haven't used that name in years... but yes, at one point in my life - before this glorious unlife - that was my last name."

"Clarice Foster: Filthy scum! Leaves me for his damn crusade. Because "the Light is the most important thing we have against the threats the undead pose. Well, what about his children?! What about ME?! Night after night I sat patiently waiting for him... always second to his blasted duty! Well, witness what "justice" brings you, ! He's dead and I'm bearing the very thing he was trying to stop! Take this piece of junk and put it on his tomb at the Sepulcher. I want nothing to do with it anymore... or him!"

"Lord Godfrey: My kingdom? My kingdom is no more. Your father and Greymane saw to that... No, Gilneas died when they allowed murderous beasts to reign free. Unchecked. Now lay down your arms and surrender. We are not here to kill you. Not yet."

That's going through pretty much every quest within Tirisfal, Silverpine, and Undercity. Not a single quest spoke of an undead not remembering who they were, except for, as shown, some brief forgetfulness right as they are raised before realizing and remembering.

I have yet to go through the removed pre-Cataclysm quests there, seeing as they're difficult to find, but I seriously doubt the results will be any different.

If you have proof that there are Forsaken or DKs that are both free from the Lich King and do not remember their pasts, then please post the quotes and sources. Until then, the only thing that states anything about not remembering is a single quote from the WoW RPG guide, which only says that some don't remember while most do.

The big vision that appeared infront of them is what helped Mograine remember that. I can't remember seeing the same happening to every single death knight. It was most likely just for their leader so that they'd be put on the right path.

That's an incorrect assumption. The Thassarian comic specifically shows that he too received a similar vision--he was convinced by a vision of his own father to stand down. In fact, WoWpedia's description of the story in the comic says that visions of each DK's father appeared (though I'd have to read it myself to verify).

The Thassarian comic also shows how memories of his own mother was what prompted him to spare Koltira's brother's life, even while he was under the Thrall of the Lich King.

I read up on Sir Zeliek and got to read that he resisted being turned into a Death Knight.

And he still does resist it. Doesn't change the fact that he is one and has no control of his body anymore.

I guess he's somewhere between being turned into an undead and being alive. If you look at him he doesn't exactly look undead, now does he?

He's classified as Undead in-game, and the description of him given in Dragonblight specifically says he is undead.

"Sir Zeliek, a paladin in life, so strong in his faith, that even in undeath, the power of the light still heeds his call, smiting his foes in battle." -Commander Elegor Dawnbringer

It is at several points proven that the light and shadow dispel eachother. If you keep the channeling of light at a moderate level it will not destroy you, but it will much likely make you feel weaker and the similar. I guess those priest must have been doing it at a moderate level over a longer time, therefore the light has gotten a little grip on them and they regain a little bit of life. However I said that they'd fall over dead if they did it too much.

In that case I'd agree. They would almost certainly get weaker from it, and a seriously large amount would outright annihilate them (beyond what most spells are capable of doing unless you're performing some kind of miracle). But the amount used in general by an undead priests/paladin is just enough to cause great pain, not to destroy.

It's common for Blizzard to make up excuses in order to allow the change of game mechanics. While that might be the set "lore" I find it highly unserious and choose to ignore it. They bend lore after the way they want the game to go. If they need one thing changed in game mechanics they'll also change lore so that it fits, because they put game mechanics way above lore and roleplay.

I personally prefer it this way. Because it fits the nature of the Light much better. The Light does not judge. It does not decide who is worthy and who is unworthy. It is about personal faith. The Light doesn't seek to destroy, that's not its nature. It hurts undead because we are creatures of shadow... but if we are able to maintain faith despite that, then I don't see why it would not be possible.

"The Light does not abandon its champions." -A'dal

by **Drustai** Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:14 pm

Soolie Bentspring wrote:However there are no records of Death Knights doing so (The only examples are Arthas and Sir Zirlek who are/were not dead).

Incorrect. Zeliek is specifically stated to be undead, both in game mechanics and NPC dialogue. That being said, as I said in my previous post, I do agree that using the Light as an undead does weaken you. It's just not enough to completely destroy you. In your example, you're implying a binary idea... that Light appears, all Shadow is gone. It's more fluid than that. Some Light appears, pushing away some Shadow, but some Shadow does remain. Undead who use the Light do not push away all of the Shadow within themselves, so while weakened they are not destroyed.

by **Drustai** Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:15 pm

Tso/Lyrion wrote:But WoW is not an entirely RP based game. Everything Blizzard says is a fact, as it is their world.

Also, Arthas was never Undead, right?

He was. Frostmourne, like all runeblades in the hands of a living host, eventually turns its host undead.

by **Thelos** Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:23 pm

Soolie Bentspring wrote:It states that Forsaken are able to, yes.

O, this clarifies a lot for me. I always read that blizzard statement as saying that Undead are able to to channel the Light, since Inever found it necissary to make the distinction. Undead are undead. I dont see why the Light would react differently to the Forsaken than it would to Death Knights. If there is a good reason it should, then I'd love to hear it.

by **Drustai** Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:30 pm

Thelos wrote:
Soolie Bentspring wrote:It states that Forsaken are able to, yes.

O, this clarifies a lot for me. I always read that blizzard statement as saying that Undead are able to to channel the Light, since Inever found it necissary to make the distinction. Undead are undead. I dont see why the Light would react differently to the Forsaken than it would to Death Knights. If there is a good reason it should, then I'd love to hear it.

The runeblade probably makes it much more difficult, as it'd constantly be urging you away from the Light. It's still possible, as Zeliek shows, but I imagine that DKs would find it much, much harder as long as their runeblade keeps whispering evil thoughts in their ears.

by **Lexgrad** Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:39 pm

So.... to bring this back to game terms...

1 - If the light is a matter of faith, could a DK do his evil with out his faith waivering (taking souls and hurrting people)?

1a Would this mattr if he chooses guilty/bad people over inocent good ones?

2 If we talk about a DK using the light are all bets on? Could they be as a paladin/priest? (Personally I would be very subtle by choice whatever the answer)

3 Using Runes...what are the affects?

by **Yarnaat** Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:55 pm

@Drustai
As I'm writing a text in Spanish (Homework) at the same time as I am and have been writing these posts I've not had the time to check the sources perfectly, and for that I apologise. Regarding the "majority" I simply remembered wrong.

However my point of that Zeliek had the chance to resist from the start which the regular Death Knights didn't still stands. He had an advantage in that meaning.

It's also simpler for Forsaken for the reason that Drustai stated, and for the reason that Death Knights have a hunger for slaughter and feeding on souls.

Also Thelos, if you take another look at Blizzard's post you'll see that they point towards Forsaken Priests and not Death Knights.

The rest of what I think can be seen on my post "highest up" on this page in this topic.
If I meet a Death Knight who channels Light magic I'll still slap him/her though.

by **Drustai** Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:19 pm

Lexgrad/Dreth wrote:So.... to bring this back to game terms...

1 - If the light is a matter of faith, could a DK do his evil with out his faith waivering (taking souls and hurrting people)?

ONLY if it coincides with his faith and can be justified. Committing evil actions that are against one's faith will not work. If mass murdering people is something you consider a sin, then you will almost certainly not be able to keep your faith if you are engaging in it, as you are directly sinning against your own belief system.

1a Would this mattr if he chooses guilty/bad people over inocent good ones?

Depends on his individual faith. See Scarlet Crusade, who didn't care about innocent or guilty, because they truly believed they were doing it for the greater good. Killing the innocent was not considered an 'evil' or a 'sin' for them. It was a means.

2 If we talk about a DK using the light are all bets on? Could they be as a paladin/priest? (Personally I would be very subtle by choice whatever the answer)

I would say they could, but, again, the runeblade would resist this terribly. And I seriously doubt anyone would ordain them for the post, so it'd be unofficial.

3 Using Runes...what are the affects?

None, runes on their own do not cause corruption. Using shadow/soul energy to power runes on the other hand will lead to corruption (desire for power/to commit evil/etc... basically selfishness, anything that benefits you above anyone else, as that's the way of shadow).

Soolie Bentspring wrote:It's also simpler for Forsaken for the reason that Drustai stated, and for the reason that Death Knights have a hunger for slaughter and feeding on souls.

Forsaken should have it as well (well, the hunger for feeding on life, not for souls since they don't have a runeblade), though I imagine not to the same degree. All undead have a hunger for life, so Forsaken should have that as well. Unlike DKs however, they seem to go along the 'ghoul' path... that is, feeding in the much more normal way of physical consumption of something that is/was recently living (cannabalism, and I believe they have quests involving actually eating food, too). DKs have the 'must commit violence' path instead, which makes theirs much harder to manage due to the moral difficulties.

But yes, the runeblade whispering in their ear and the hunger for souls due to the runeblade would definitely make it much harder to uphold any kind of faith in the Light. Faith in the Light is based on altruism, while undead, as creatures of shadow, are based on selfishness--which the runeblade accentuates greatly. For Forsaken it's certainly difficult, for death knights it must be far more so. Not impossible, but definitely such an individual, like Zeliek, would be an extreme rarity.

by **Lexgrad** Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:32 pm

[quote="Drustai"]

Lexgrad/Dreth wrote:So.... to bring this back to game terms...

2 If we talk about a DK using the light are all bets on? Could they be as a paladin/priest? (Personally I would be very subtle by choice whatever the answer)

I would say they could, but, again, the runeblade would resist this terribly. And I seriously doubt anyone would ordain them for the post, so it'd be unofficial.

By 2 I meant could they use the light like a priest/Paladin.

by **Drustai** Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:15 am

[quote="Lexgrad/Dreth"]

Drustai wrote:
Lexgrad/Dreth wrote:So.... to bring this back to game terms...

2 If we talk about a DK using the light are all bets on? Could they be as a paladin/priest? (Personally I would be very subtle by choice whatever the answer)

I would say they could, but, again, the runeblade would resist this terribly. And I seriously doubt anyone would ordain them for the post, so it'd be unofficial.

By 2 I meant could they use the light like a priest/Paladin.

Yes, but as said, with great difficulty.

by **Lexgrad** Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:55 pm

So RP this week.

Wed/thurs - we travel to Stromgarde and RP with the Northerners.

Fri - Joint Event with the KoS and some kind Scourge cultists who will die in the name of a storyline (hopefully) Big thanks to the Blades and chapter for RPing the enemy for us. <3

Sat - say good by to Stromgarde and move on to Durnholde and RP with the LoD.

Sun - Start of the crusade.

Not to late to join! Very Happy