Leaders of the Alliance. MUST SEE.

Valerias wrote:I'd join an RP-er run alt levelling guild with characters I simply hadn't decided what to do with yet, or who I often RP but who currently have no guild affiliation. Rohwyn, for example. It would be nicer than levelling unguilded!

I use Blue Brothers. *shrug*

Interesting points, when is was with the proudmoore I too welcomed new rpers and trained them, a few of them are now great rpers. However the sum of all guilds who do this are less than what i hope this guild can muster.

The idea is to not make this a guild run by a couple of people, i want, in fact NEED every one here pulling together on this if it is to work. There is no hidden facts here, i just want to get rpers and aspiring rpers out of the "perk" guilds and into the community (as well as all the other benefits it will bring).

The TTH example is not quite correct IMO. To join you need to be a dwarf and to join their forum apply and be accepted. The defiasrp guild will be easier to join. Any dwarfs who wish it will be pointed towards TTH or other Dwarf guilds.

Dreth wrote:The TTH example is not quite correct IMO. To join you need to be a dwarf and to join their forum apply and be accepted. The defiasrp guild will be easier to join. Any dwarfs who wish it will be pointed towards TTH or other Dwarf guilds.

Then why not just point any specific type of rper towards an appropriate guild, thus, what is the point of the guild?

Paragus wrote:

Dreth wrote:The TTH example is not quite correct IMO. To join you need to be a dwarf and to join their forum apply and be accepted. The defiasrp guild will be easier to join. Any dwarfs who wish it will be pointed towards TTH or other Dwarf guilds.

Then why not just point any specific type of rper towards an appropriate guild, thus, what is the point of the guild?

This is the point I'm trying to get across; what's the point in a perks guild if they're looking for a guild for their roleplaying character to belong to?

Tulene wrote:

Paragus wrote:

Dreth wrote:The TTH example is not quite correct IMO. To join you need to be a dwarf and to join their forum apply and be accepted. The defiasrp guild will be easier to join. Any dwarfs who wish it will be pointed towards TTH or other Dwarf guilds.

Then why not just point any specific type of rper towards an appropriate guild, thus, what is the point of the guild?

This is the point I'm trying to get across; what's the point in a perks guild if they're looking for a guild for their roleplaying character to belong to?

my point is that at the moment the community here (and i personaly agree with) think we are not doing enough. We are more likely to turn on a newbe for bad emotes than "point them to a guild". Newbes get hoovered up by the perk guilds. I have seen some of the /g that occures in them. Its revolting, and it is a new roleplayers first taste of the server. It took me 2 months to find out about this site for example, that is not good enough.

I have other points, please read my earlier post and I hope that will explain my point more.

People... This has been discussed time and time again.

Every generation of rp'ers that this server has ever had, have had the same idea's and wishes to help the server gain a better, stronger and more unified community.

But in truth, we're all pretty much shite (at least in my own experience) at helping newcomers in the right direction when they take their first steps on this server.

I believe the answer is very very very simple, and it seems that it pops up again at the end of every single discussion that has been regarding the situation of our realm (During all my time here at least )

We just need to actually do something about it, such as helping the newcomers (as well as seasoned rp'ers who might have grown without anyone actually guiding them or correction them on their mistakes), even the simple "Mighty warm tonight, wouldn't you say" or "Excuse me, do you happen to have the time?" conversation starters are something that we all can use to increase the activity.

I solemnly believe that the solution isn't more advanced than that. - We just need to start taking responsibility and make things happen rather than run around like headless chickens, the least we can do is run collectively in the same direction as headless chickens

Paragus wrote:

Dreth wrote:The TTH example is not quite correct IMO. To join you need to be a dwarf and to join their forum apply and be accepted. The defiasrp guild will be easier to join. Any dwarfs who wish it will be pointed towards TTH or other Dwarf guilds.

Then why not just point any specific type of rper towards an appropriate guild, thus, what is the point of the guild?

I doubt that there'd be an existing guild for every possible character concept imaginable. Some people might also just not be interested in being part of a group IC'ly.

What Saevir said!

Dreth wrote:

Tulene wrote:

Paragus wrote:

Dreth wrote:The TTH example is not quite correct IMO. To join you need to be a dwarf and to join their forum apply and be accepted. The defiasrp guild will be easier to join. Any dwarfs who wish it will be pointed towards TTH or other Dwarf guilds.

Then why not just point any specific type of rper towards an appropriate guild, thus, what is the point of the guild?

This is the point I'm trying to get across; what's the point in a perks guild if they're looking for a guild for their roleplaying character to belong to?

my point is that at the moment the community here (and i personaly agree with) think we are not doing enough. We are more likely to turn on a newbe for bad emotes than "point them to a guild". Newbes get hoovered up by the perk guilds. I have seen some of the /g that occures in them. Its revolting, and it is a new roleplayers first taste of the server. It took me 2 months to find out about this site for example, that is not good enough.

I have other points, please read my earlier post and I hope that will explain my point more.

Revolting? That is an exaggeration, I use them for some alts and they are fine. And it's up the person whether they want perks or even want to RP or not. You can RP fine in an OOC guild, be it a levelling guild, or raid guild or whatever. There is nothing wrong with wanting to do other aspects of the game besides roleplay, so it really shouldn't turn into a recruitment war, on who hoovers up the newbz first.

All in all, guild perks are -NOT- the problem with the server at the moment, not that our server is in that dire a situation anyway.

I've roleplayed while in a raiding guild, and hell, Saevir has been doing so for ages. I don't see any complaints from him.

I agree it isnt, but there was a meeting and points where raised, Does this idea meet those points? Yes i think.

It might have been just a bad time but for the hour or so i was there it was revolting.

It isnt guild war really, just a chance for the server to do better on bringing new roleplayers into the community. Also some expressed issues trusting or roleplaying in these guilds, if you look at the notes on the meeting both of these points.

Oh and here's a pic to show creating more RP guilds isn't an issue when it comes to events:

Tulene wrote:I've roleplayed while in a raiding guild, and hell, Saevir has been doing so for ages. I don't see any complaints from him.

yeah but others have had problems. It is in the server meeting notes and my reply to it. This is bigger than just another guild too, my post kinda outlines this but i am ooc chatting to people now and we should have something more exact up soon

Tulene wrote:Oh and here's a pic to show creating more RP guilds isn't an issue when it comes to events:

I think we have mis-understood each other. The guild is not there to reduce guilds, it plans to strenghen them and improve rp. It is all in my reply to the server meeting

Aside from the discussion about the merits of guilds etc-

Rolled a level one warlock to be a killable cultist type for a mini event with a few others tonight, and it was brilliant in general.

The issues we ran into were that having a largish group of people behaving conspicuously (as in shouting, causing a racket) in a busy area like Stormwind, caused a fair bit of ooc bollocks from non-rpers, and a few others turned up to teabag/lol/generally make arses of themselves. But we carried on and had a decent/creepy time regardless .

Having a few accepted 'victim' characters in general gives fights a bit more of a satisfying 'edge', although it'd be nice, at the same time, to see people in general be more willing to take damage, as well as dish it out, in emote fight situations.

Would also like to note the Three Hammers cultist event went pretty awesomely, with a similar approach, of people turning up to play the bad guys either on alts or playing their mains as different characters for the duration of that event. Cheers for those that organised it

So a general YAY for this kind of thing

Geneviève wrote:These are the points we picked up throughout the meeting. They’re not all our own but this is by no means a comprehensive list and not all of them were the consensus. If I’d had the thought beforehand I’d have taken proper minutes.

1) Non-RP guilds ‘Taakkin’ our jaaawbs!’ Non RP guilds recruiting RPers, advertising themselves as RP guilds. And generally being a sore point. Not worth discussing since they weren’t there and even if they were I doubt they’d change their ways. This led to a discussion with a non-RP guild guildee who explained to me that they feel there is no way they can raid within an RP guild because we don’t want to go to the trouble so she feels forced to join a non-RP guild.

2) RP guilds can Raid/PvP and be successful. Try it, it’s easier than it looks and might broaden RP’s appeal to a wider audience.

3) Not enough Evil guilds to fight against!

4) Definition of Evil? Plenty of morally ambiguous guilds. The Seal, Crimsons, Blades for Hire, the Shields (in their day). We all had quite public clashes in the street. Capulets vs Montagues!

5) Army of the Damned/Forlorn Cartel?/Deadwind Conclave/Chapter (arguably). These are downright evil/criminal guilds around but for various reasons people chose to ignore or overlook different elements.

6) People should roll alts to help new guilds out?

7) People should stick to their main characters which will lead to more stable guilds and more accurate measure of how a guild is actually doing.

Having people to fight rather than NPC’s/Raid warnings. These techniques have their place but people should be more keen to ask another roughly equally sized guild to play ‘cultists’ for the day.

9) Should we cluster into one City or area? Stormwind/Theramore/Elwynn for the Humans/Gnomes/Dwarves/Worgen. Darnassus/Feathermoon for the elves/Draenei/Worgen?

10) Shame to see some people pissing off to PvP/PvE/idle in SW when the idea was to get some kind of united response. Saying your bit then leaving doesn’t really show you as being open to compromise or cooperation. (specifically aimed at those who left to do other things, not Eloresh who had to deal with pesky guests!)

If everyone else could throw up what they ‘took’ from the meeting that would be great.

P.S. very sorry about the formatting. I think Word fucked it up for me. >.> (fixed -mod)

server meeting

Dreth wrote:right, what we need to do is this, stop worrying because fortunately my uber brain and mind death job means i have come up with an answer to 90% of all the points raised!

The answer...

A RP leveling guild!

Basiclly i recken call it something like Citizens of the alliance then get all your un guilded or wanky guilded alts into it. It will be a guild of individuals, no big plot or nout so maybe people who are un-guilded and happy that way could join too Next, we gat loads of newbe rpers into the guild. It mixes newbes and vets together, they can offer advise, maybe hold clinics on emotes or lore ect.

the beauty is then new rpers have a place to go, if you see new rpers then the community can send them to the guild. Where the ooc guild name is seen others will know they are rpers so it will stimulate random RP people want. It totally does away with the "there in a perks guild" issue. One of the aims of the guild will be to train and then direct newbes to the best RP guilds for their char, maybe also it can help out guilds that are finding recruits tricky.

Another idea i had was to make the ranks like rookie and vet, so other rpers will be able to identfy the newbes and hopefuly offer guidance and give them some slack. Maybe as well there can be a guild rank for example shop keepers, that way if people want to rp as tradesman they can too be identfied and be apart of the community.

Also the guild can be used as tackle dummies for events where disposables are needed, If run right the newbes can really learn from it. Maybe too it can be a place for any born to die alts!

so random rp improved, vets and newbes mingling and playing together, a supply of goons for events and a place to assist in guild recruitment. Where be the down side...

i can only think of two. Firstly it will be a level one guild. It will take a few months to lvl it. I guess it would ask people to take a small hit to their lvling for a short time (although the benifits could be massive to Defias Bros!)

Secondly is getting the officers for it. I recken if we get like 10 - 20 officers (!) then there will be one online most of the time and the guild will be hunting out newbes with a chaptarian like zeal. So it will demand alittle time from every one.

So what do you think?

my reply

I am often at fault for assuming everyone should have some 'organisation' that they're attached to. There's some reasoning behind it but it would take several paragraphs to explain and it's not an airtight argument either, it's more of an 'in general' overview of the population.

But I myself have unguilded characters, and I'm afraid I'd never lower myself to joining an 'OOC' guild (another brash broad stroke judgement but bear with me) because I feel it sets a bad example. We complain bitterly about people talking OOC, acting OOC, breaking the realms rules. Yet we roll our alts and join guilds with members who do just that and by continuing to wear their tag we are endorsing the behaviour of every other member who wears that tag. It erodes away any right we have to expect reasonable behaviour from others when we cannot act with integrity ourselves.

Which is why I wholly endorse an 'unguilded IC' guild for RPers. That said I don't think there would be much uptake to join because, as people prior to me have said and I have then paraphrased, nobody cares.

People are joining 'OOC' guilds to raid, to PvP, to level quickly and efficiently. And I don't know how we can fix that, most RP guilds could not raid without raising their membership (which leads us to the question of, if they raided would their activity rise?), chicken and the egg anyone? And something similar can be said for PvP guilds.

One final thing, can we please stop being so patronising. As if new RPers need to go through an intensive six week course to learn the difference between IC and OOC. Children have been roleplaying since the dawn of time. I can't remember a time before I was playing at soldiers with my friends, shooting the fuck out of each other with our silenced Walther PPfingers, and calling each other 'sir'. I've seen it countless times, RPers advertising a new 'school' where you can sit around and learn how to RP, and everyone looks at us as if we're some cretinous morons who think we've got superpowers because we can RP!

And then afterwords people with far too much kindness and not enough 'man up' congratulate the host for harassing a passing gnome who just wanted to visit the warrior trainer and teaching him what meta-gaming means as if he can now go to school without fear of being run over. I've had enough! Instead of arranging initiatives, seminars, and feeding this perpetual lie that we need more events can't we just get out there and RP!?

Geneviève wrote:People are joining 'OOC' guilds to raid, to PvP, to level quickly and efficiently. And I don't know how we can fix that, most RP guilds could not raid without raising their membership (which leads us to the question of, if they raided would their activity rise?), chicken and the egg anyone? And something similar can be said for PvP guilds.

Nothing to fix becuase it isn't a problem and shouldn't affect your or anyone's RP. Only the player themselves RPing will do that.

And if we're going to stop being patronizing, do you really have to say, "lower yourself to join an OOC guild" :<

RPers expressing their opinion that they cannot raid or PvP without joining an OOC guild (perhaps this wasn't clear, but that means what would have been their second choice of guild) isn't a problem? It doesnt affect me at all, I can PvP at the level I want to on my own and can PvE with my guild. It's other people I'm sticking my neck out for.

I'm happy to patronise people I percieve as hypocrits, but not new RPers.

I was aware as I wrote the post that it was very aggressive. But it wasn't meant as a personal attack. Thanks for quoting me out of context, if you'd read what I actually said you'd understand my position better. I acknowledged it was a broad stroke, i.e. it didn't apply to everyone in an 'OOC' guild. Clearly you think I was pointing at you, which tells people far more about your self esteem than you might think and vindicates my opinion far better than I could have done myself.

On the other hand I think exposing people in such guilds to RP might attract more people to join the fun. To recruit more roleplayers, you need to expose yourself to the world outside of our close knit community.

I like Ben's approach on it, and I can say from experience it works. There are new players out there who'd like to experiment or see what this so called "role play" is all about. Giving them a greet and a word can be all you need to get them hooked.

Greeting people and having a casual chat, as silly as it may sound, is a simple but effective way to increase the exposure of our RP to other people. And exposure is what we need to create roleplay. You can't conflict with someone if you ignore him. You can't ally with someone if you don't talk to him. Hell, it bloody increases immersion as well... It makes the city feel more alive rather than "ohh it's probably another npc walking by".

This whole "get your head out of your guild" talk more or less reflects this message but I don't feel it captures the problem nor the solution. It's not just that people are focused on their own guild. It's more that people carry extreme prejudice towards players based solely on their guild tag. (I think this OOC guild bashing is just a part of it. I see similar prejudice towards RP guilds as well)

If my observation in that is true, then we can work on improvement in two ways. Yes, the "look outside of your guild" logic would still be valid... But people who are too focused on their own guild to bother with that can contribute by actively trying to improve their guild, OOCly too. And who on earth doesn't like to make their guild better?
The problem isn't just with the people who don't feel encouraged to RP with you. It's also up to you to promote yourself as RP'er.

On another note... I feel that RP itself was discussed more actively in the past. People discussed things with each other more openly, whether it was an event or how to RP a mage. Such discussions also help us. They help us gather observations on RP from different angles, can inspire new concepts or approaches and therefor.. RP.

Looking at the arguments given in the discussions, I often here a tone of "there are grave issues. They are the problem and we should fix -them-." I don't think many have yet said "-WE- will try to improve". I wonder if this community isn't "secretly" becoming full of itself

Jeanpierre wrote:On the other hand I think exposing people in such guilds to RP might attract more people to join the fun.
To recruit more roleplayers, you need to expose yourself to the world outside of our close knit community.

I'm newish, and this was/is my biggest wall to climb so that other RP'ers would actually RP with me. Even now when I try to join
in (random RP/a group of RP'ers talking/etc) I feel like I'm being pushed aside/ignored, whether this is down to not being in the
community circle (not knowing the IC and OOC characters) or just not being loud enough I don't know.

I do like the idea of a Defias Brotherhood Alliance & Horde RP introduction guild as when i rolled here this would've been ideal
for me to get to know the community characters and guilds. I despise the official Defias Brotherhood forums as it's full of interweb
forum heroes, so I see this potential guild as a living breathing version of the decent recruitment threads on those forums, teaching
the new DB RP'ers the ins and outs of our servers RP guilds. If i can help in anyway I'd love to whether that be by rolling a alt to use
in said guild or by using my main RP character! I know what it's like to be new here on both Alliance and Horde and it is intimidating!

So if a problem is not enough raiding or pvp discourages RPers; why not build an OOC community, an OOC channel and maybe an OOC forum for a join RP Raiding/PVP Group. E.g. any RPer interested in joining may sign up to the forum, state their interest and state when they aren't RPing or would like to go do raids etc. ?

Tulene wrote:So if a problem is not enough raiding or pvp discourages RPers; why not build an OOC community, an OOC channel and maybe an OOC forum for a join RP Raiding/PVP Group. E.g. any RPer interested in joining may sign up to the forum, state their interest and state when they aren't RPing or would like to go do raids etc. ?

I personally doubt that a non-guild raiding group would attract the RP'ers that normally join raiding guilds in any significant number. In my experience, the people who do so seek to raid at a level of dedication that a non-guild raiding group wouldn't have a hope to match without most of the participants prioritizing the raids higher than any of their other ingame activities anyway.

It'd still be a nice thing for the existing RP'ers who'd like to raid, but don't want to prioritize it though.