Middle-East & North African Discussion

I agree with you on here, and the NATO official has it right. The important thing is definite legitimacy (whether from "NATO alone" or not). I'd hope for the backing of the Arab League at least, and hopefully (if it's possible) some actual representative of the Libyan Rebel Council. But that would require them being recognised as the legitimate (single) voice of the Libyan People...

grufftoof wrote:I agree with you on here, and the NATO official has it right. The important thing is definite legitimacy (whether from "NATO alone" or not). I'd hope for the backing of the Arab League at least, and hopefully (if it's possible) some actual representative of the Libyan Rebel Council. But that would require them being recognised as the legitimate (single) voice of the Libyan People...

The Arab League has already stated that it is in favor of a no-fly zone if I recall correctly. I doubt we can get legitimacy from the Libyans, as far as I'm seeing there's no real central rebel leadership. Maybe the one in Benghazi, but the question is: Are the other rebel towns below them? Is a rebel in Zawiya receiving orders from the council in Benghazi? Does he recognize them as the central leadership?

Best we can get are the surrounding international organizations if you ask me.

Indeed, I don't believe there is "yet" a single voice of the "rebellion".

What we need is their Mon Motha, obviously...

I'd love to see the US circumvent the Security Council over Libya like they did before Korea. Watching the UN scurry around, tearing up it's own rules and prostituting itself just to avoid punishing the USA and UK...Those were the days.

Geneviève wrote:I'd love to see the US circumvent the Security Council over Libya like they did before Korea. Watching the UN scurry around, tearing up it's own rules and prostituting itself just to avoid punishing the USA and UK...Those were the days.

Actually, the US went by the book for Korea. It was the USSR who were boycotting the meetings and not showing up. If they had shown up they would have interposed their veto, but they did not. It is their own dumb fault for not showing up.

Interesting...I've heard a very different version of events from an MoD political advisor. Either I'm confusing wars, or somebody's misreported incidents.

The version I heard was that by the time a resolution was proposed US forces from Japan and British troops from Commonwealth territories had already begun operations agains the North Koreans. Russia veto's so America 'invents' a rule allowing them to return to the general assembly and ask them to vote to overturn the veto. The resolution was retroactively passed to legalise NATO's involvement.

In consideration this is one of the hundreds of examples of UN failings I was asked to 'memorise' for exams as part of my training so...I'm probably confusing Korea with Naboo, Truman with Viceroy Nute Gunray, and dear Kim with Boss Nass...

Anonymous sources have leaked information from the military cabinet of Sarkozy which say that in the next few days he will bring forth a suggestion about military intervention under the form of air strikes against key locations of the Khadaffi regime.

Why does nobody want to bomb the rebels?

Sinnadrin wrote:Why does nobody want to bomb the rebels?

...Why would anyone in the international community want to do that?

Antistia wrote:

Sinnadrin wrote:Why does nobody want to bomb the rebels?

...Why would anyone in the international community want to do that?

I think he meant why does nobody (Gadafi) wants to bomb the rebels, he just wanted to go down on Gadafi *nod*. Sike.

And don't worry, the USA, NATO, UN and every possible organisation will wait until it is the worst time for them to enter, and then will enter.

I thought they already tried to bomb the rebels, but it backfired and the pilots went "u mad bro" before getting out of there and asking for asylum "U jelly Gadafhi?"

Gulf states were sending troops into the troubled island state of Bahrain on Monday in a move Shi'ite opponents of the Saudi-allied, Sunni Muslim rulers of the Gulf kingdom said would be a declaration of war.

So it would seem that the Arabs are intend on putting down the revolt in Bahrain. I dislike it quite a bit, really. The Shi'ite majority in Bahrain should have equal rights at the very least and the country should also become a constitutional monarchy at the very least.

In Libya the battle seems to be going against the Rebels, the Arab league is calling for the UN to impose a no-fly zone, and France is apparently pushing hard to get it. I hope the no-fly zone gets imposed, either through the UN or by support from the surrounding international organizations.

In the end though, the people will be free. Maybe not this year, or the next, but in the end the people will be free. Censorship and oppression never work in any situation, at one point or another people will want liberty and they will take it, leaving their oppressors in the dustbin of history.

Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth.

- George Washington

They passed the resolution...

The UN flies to war... sorry, I mean "tactical air superiority strikes".

Well, I don't think they're using Ents. But maybe they are.

Let us hope it is not too late for the rebels. If not, I am absolutely delighted on how things are developing, a cheer for the UN's security council decision, and I think this is in order aswell now:

Spoiler:

One can only hope if and when the peoples of Europe will also rise up against their tyrants, these noble champions of demockracy will do the morally sound thing, obeying the will of the people and voting for bombing themselves.

Do you actually think it's a bad thing to act on the request of the rebel leaders, the Arab League and (seemingly) most of the international community, to help the people being bombed and bloodily put down by a ruthless (and quite possibly mad) dictator?

You've posted before in this thread asking why no one goes against the rebels (in favour of Gaddaffi?)?

I don't want to see the UN with any kind of standing ground force in Libya. This should be support, for the rebels, at their request. But action was needed.

Do I think "Western democracy" is the last champion and great answer? No. I'm not stupid either. Do I think the UN is a perfect tool? No, ditto.

But I'm actually proud (and "pride" isn't something I usually do) they're acting now. Hopefully not too late. Hopefully with due responsibility.

Im really proud aswell, and I hope that the UN airforces or contingent bury them AND AHAHAHAHA, LIBYA JUST DECLARED CEASEFIRE DUE TO THE RESOLUTION! REJOICE!

Wow, I didn't know they'd call a ceasefire, I was expecting them to continue the violence, abeit it would be less public.

Geldar wrote:Im really proud aswell, and I hope that the UN airforces or contingent bury them AND AHAHAHAHA, LIBYA JUST DECLARED CEASEFIRE DUE TO THE RESOLUTION! REJOICE!

That ceasefire is unilateral and the terms are paramount to the rebels actually surrendering to Ghaddafi. It's not going to mean anything in the long run.

One can only hope if and when the peoples of Europe will also rise up against their tyrants, these noble champions of demockracy will do the morally sound thing, obeying the will of the people and voting for bombing themselves.

Bar the fact we elect our representatives etc?

Bar the fact we elect our representatives etc?

Agreed.

It was irony, Antistia. We all know that this is just to slow down the forces currently being prepared for Libya. Anyway, Libya invites some foreign countries to monitor the ceasefire including: Germany, Malta, China and Turkey. The invitation was held by the deputy foreign minister who could barely speak English and he was clear that he knew what he was talking about.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12793554

If the RAF doesn't do something soon I'll cry. My pride's still aching from the debaucle with the SAS. *blushes*

At around the time the resolution was passed there was some info coming out that stated that 6 RAF and 6 ALA planes were ready to go "within hours". That was ages ago. So I'm guessing there's at least some flying going on around somewhere...

I hope.

Libyan forces are attacking Benghazi all the while Western leaders are convening in Paris on how to proceed. The rebels are already retreating from the outskirts of the city and a plane has been shot down by them over Benghazi.

...I really do not understand why the West is still convening, by now a barrage of Tomahawk missiles should have taken down Libya's AA stationary AA positions along the coast and Super Hornets ought to be bombing the crap out of Ghaddafi's forces in the east.

Edit:

Just read that the United States will probably be in support for the duration of this campaign. I'm disappointed by that, but Europe can and should do it then... I'm still hoping for a barrage of Tomahawk missiles.

Obama told Congressional leaders that "he had not authorized troops on the ground or airplanes," a staffer to one of the Congress members briefed Friday said on condition of anonymity. "He stressed the U.S. is diplomatically supporting the no-fly zone, not the enforcement itself."

The meeting came after a key GOP ally, ranking Senate Foreign Relations Committee vice chairman Richard Lugar (R-Ind.), objected to the administration deploying U.S. military personnel or assets for the Libya intervention without first coming to Congress to get a declaration of war. Lugar also wanted the administration to explain how the Libya mission would be paid for.

Edit2:

French fighter jets soared over a rebel-held city besieged by Moammar Gadhafi's troops on Saturday, the first mission for an international military force launched in support of the 5-week-old uprising against the Libyan leader's rule.

It's begun.. And the first planes over Libya are French no less.

Antistia wrote:Libyan forces are attacking Benghazi all the while Western leaders are convening in Paris on how to proceed. The rebels are already retreating from the outskirts of the city and a plane has been shot down by them over Benghazi.

...I really do not understand why the West is still convening, by now a barrage of Tomahawk missiles should have taken down Libya's AA stationary AA positions along the coast and Super Hornets ought to be bombing the crap out of Ghaddafi's forces in the east.

Edit:

Just read that the United States will probably be in support for the duration of this campaign. I'm disappointed by that, but Europe can and should do it then... I'm still hoping for a barrage of Tomahawk missiles.

Obama told Congressional leaders that "he had not authorized troops on the ground or airplanes," a staffer to one of the Congress members briefed Friday said on condition of anonymity. "He stressed the U.S. is diplomatically supporting the no-fly zone, not the enforcement itself."

The meeting came after a key GOP ally, ranking Senate Foreign Relations Committee vice chairman Richard Lugar (R-Ind.), objected to the administration deploying U.S. military personnel or assets for the Libya intervention without first coming to Congress to get a declaration of war. Lugar also wanted the administration to explain how the Libya mission would be paid for.

Edit2:

French fighter jets soared over a rebel-held city besieged by Moammar Gadhafi's troops on Saturday, the first mission for an international military force launched in support of the 5-week-old uprising against the Libyan leader's rule.

It's begun.. And the first planes over Libya are French no less.

That is indeed sutptising. By the way, USA will join in, according to Clinton, live, BBC news.