Re: Middle-East & North African Discussion

by **Grufftoof** Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:53 pm

There was some on the Guardian and other UK paper websites yesterday at least. I cannot find the link now. However, that was reported as "against arms dumps". No further actual footage that I have seen. Though reports from various sources as mentioned above.

by **Nithel** Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:35 pm

Den Haag started a procedure to investigate on Khaddafi (and some others) for the bloody repression against the Libyan people. So if he ever sets a foot in Europe, he'll end up in front of the ICC.

Guess there's no villa waiting for him at the cote d'azur.

Edit: It kind of makes you wonder what went through the guy's head. If he had given up, he'd probably be somewhere warm by now, sipping gin and enjoying the riches that Swiss banks couldn't block.

by **Antistia** Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:37 pm

According to eyewitnesses a bloodbath has taken place in the city of Zawiya in Libya. It is unclear if Ghaddafi loyalists or rebels hold control of the city.

The eyewitness said battalions of forces loyal to Moammar Gadhafi attacked the protesters with mortars and machine guns as they were demonstrating in the city's Martyrs Square, and they assaulted an ambulance and killed people who fell wounded.

"Civilians were killed but we can not say how many. We buried nine people so far," the witness said. "The attack was indescribable. Direct gunfire was opened on people."

People in Zawiya, west of Tripoli, and "their public leadership have secured and took control over the city from the 'armed terrorist elements,'" state TV reported. Libyan government spokesman Majid al- Dursi told CNN that "Zawiya has been captured, Zawiya has been liberated."
However, the eyewitness said protesters have some control inside the city, even though security forces have been surrounding Zawiya.

At least 15 people died and 200 others were injured in the city, according to one doctor, who said "there is a river of blood" at the hospital where the wounded are being treated. He said "the situation is very bad," with the facility running out of medical supplies.

Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/04/libya.conflict/index.html?hpt=T1

From what I understand these protesters were peaceful. This is completely and utterly unacceptable and merely shows the extent to which Ghaddafi is willing to go to remain in power.

by **Vragnor** Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:48 pm

Exaythe wrote:It is one of those moments when I am reminded that history is not something confined to the books, and is actually written every second all around us.

I take offense to that, i pride myself in having as little impact on the world as possible

by **Grufftoof** Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:47 am

Well, after the British "Intelligence" squad being "relocated back home" following a rather buggered attempt at some kind work in Libya... I bring some lovely news from Israel/US:

Press report

by **Geldar** Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:41 pm

"Citing Egyptian sources". They key part of the article that tells us we can dismiss it as anti-Iraeli propaganda.

Who knows though.

by **Rasonal Dranger** Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:54 pm

Why.. I mean.. *sigh*.. I can't be arsed to go again. Let me sum it up with this:

Israel fears an Islamic Revolution in Libya, all the people are shouting Allahu Akbar. This is why Israel and the West want to intervene and stop the Islamists. All Crusaders need to be repelled from Libya.

This is why Israel and the West want to intervene and stop the Islamists. All Crusaders need to be repelled from Libya.

All Crusaders need to be repelled from Libya

---Wait but we aint in the----

All Crusaders need to be repelled from Libya

*nod*

by **Grufftoof** Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:14 pm

What do you mean Rasonal? I don't understand your reply unless it's about the comments alone? And yes, the comments, like any on a blog/youtube/news site are full of hate filled, ignorant, antisemitic / antimuslim shite. They can and do include utter bullshit from every end of the spectrum. But if we listen to even 10% of the comments on things... we'd die a terrible death as our brains implode.

That comes as no surprise now, does it?

But the article itself is kinda interesting. I'd want to know more Geldar, as you rightly query the "Egyptian sources" bit (and it's automatic response in the comments section).

Edit for clarity. Don't get me wrong. If you see me jumping around in a tinfoil hat trying to escape the terrible zionists controlling the world in some illuminati type jewish conspiracy, then kill me. I'm not Glenn Beck either. I just think there's something to look at, or discuss. Even if it's likely poop.

by **Geldar** Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:25 pm

Could be propaganda or could be not. Let's look at it from an objective personal point of view.

On one side we have the West afraid that radical muslims could come to power and then let's face it, it will just be a matter of time before shit hits the fan. So naturally, they would rather have a dictator like Gadaffi instead of an entire organisation like Hezbollah in charge, if those were the single two choices present. (Democrasy would be the last choice and that only comes when everything else fails, because lets face it, no one wants another war in the middle east.)

On the other side we could have those same mentioned above (Gadaffi/Radical Muslims etc) spread propaganda amongst the citizen that the slaughters are all caused by the West (By taking in African mercs) so that two things happen, either they refuse help from the West after/before the riots are over, or they accept the radical muslims/etc.

In both cases unless a democrasy is created after this ends, the West could be more or less buttfucked. I am not much of a tinfoil hat theory fan, but who knows. In the end of the day, we have thousands of civilians dead because the leaders refuse of change and unless something is done, more and more will die. I hope that they take down Gadaffi before another war in the middle east is sparked.

by **Antistia** Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:42 pm

Well, I just want to say one thing about the UNSC resolution regarding the mercenaries. This is the United States attempting to avoid a precedent which could lead to Americans being put on trial before the ICC. The US does not recognize the authority of the ICC over its citizens and as such will go quite a long way to ensure no legal precedent is set. It should also be noted that while the US has not ratified the treaty, neither has Russia. China has not signed the treaty at all.

In other news, the Arab League is now in favor of a no-fly zone over Libya.

The Arab League supports imposing a no-fly zone over Libya to prevent Moamer Kadhafi's government forces attacking rebels, French officials said Monday, quoting the league's secretary general.

http://www.france24.com/en/20110307-arab-league-backs-libya-no-fly-zone-france

by **Ehrfürchtige Bennedict** Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:49 pm

Hmm... "The Arab League" sounds like some cheesy 80's hit-tv show.

"The Arab Justice League."
Next week: Will Allah and Muhammed catch Gaddafi, in order to save the arab world??? - Tune in next time!

by **Geldar** Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:50 pm

Antistia, so you mean that his fellow dictators are now supporting the now fly zone policy? Interesting.

by **Antistia** Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:59 pm

Geldar wrote:Antistia, so you mean that his fellow dictators are now supporting the now fly zone policy? Interesting.

That is what I gather from the article I linked.

by **Geldar** Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:19 pm

So that leads us to two options again, they are either afraid whats currently happening or happened in those countries will happen in theirs and this in a way is trying to show that they aren't as mad (There is a high chance it will eitherway) or they are simply tired of Khadaffi's insanity and see this as a good opportunity to give him the boot.

In the end, we've got another case of power and money making the world go round and round.

by **Gahalla** Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:22 pm

Tsk, why are you separating them as two options Geldar? Both of them and more is probably behind the why they'd support a no-fly zone. Not to mention that they're probably a bit concerned about the idea of tens or hundreds of thousands of poor, desperate, angry refugees on their side of the border. Lots of poor, desperate and angry people is a recipe for disaster everywhere.

Also... it's violence, sex and money that runs the world. The three tools of power.

On a separate note, I read an interesting interview with former UN general secretary Boutros Ghali (or however his name is spelled... the egyptian one). Basically... summed up: that democracy cannot work in Egypt, the clan/tribe mentality is still too strong and would only lead to the largest tribe/clan seizing it, working for it's own interest and probably making sure the other tribes would have no shot at budging it from power. He instead suggested some sort of oligarchy where every tribe/clan would have a representative. An interesting interview for sure.

by **Geldar** Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:59 pm

I separate my options because I enjoy viewing the situation from every angle, and because I like to theorize and believe that its not done from the goodness of their hearts but some other agenda, not just the suffering civilians.

by **Rasonal Dranger** Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:48 pm

I get your points, Geldar and Gruttof. But first I see no reason to mention just the Israeli ones, and therefore it jumped as propaganda. Reading through again, it is possible that some Israelis ran into it, though I still doubt it, and I certainly doubt the goverment sent them, but it is possible after all.

On the Arab League topic, it should be noted that many of those lads in the Arab Leauge supported the protests in Egypt against Mobarak, and in Tunisia during the end of them. They have many reasons to do so: Set the citizens' eyes away from their own countries/They fear if they won't do so it will reach to their own country/They actually support the protesters there/They don't want more dead people. Any is likely as the other, in my opinion.

by **Antistia** Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:38 pm

I don't know how I missed it... I read in a Dutch newspaper today that the US has ordered the USS Enterprise into the mediterranean and to Libya.

Here's an English news source:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/u-s-warships-enter-mediterranean-in-move-to-be-closer-to-libya-1.346706

A UN diplomat has also stated, on condition of anonymity, that a resolution for a no fly zone over Libya is being prepared as a resolution for the UNSC.

by **Kristeas Sunbinder** Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:00 pm

Spoiler:

by **Geldar** Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:35 am

Gents, I hope your bunkers are ready:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/obama-threatens-military-intervention-in-libya-2235157.html

US president Barack Obama said yesterday that the United States and its Nato allies are considering military intervention in Libya in the strongest warning yet to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi that the world will not stand by as the embattled Libyan leader attacks his own people.

Mr Obama said the US would support the Libyan people against "unacceptable" violence after pro-regime forces deployed jets, helicopters and artillery against civilians in an effort to retake western cities near Tripoli that had fallen to the opposition.

by **Grufftoof** Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:32 am

Supposedly Gaddafi's jet, along with 3 or four others (belonging to his family) have left Libyan airspace. One (Gaddafi's) was flying over Egypt, two more towards Malta/Italy.

No info as to why, or whether they carry anyone. A diversion? Or is he fleeing before the No Fly Zone may get enacted?

by **Tollir** Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:41 am

Who knows, I doubt Gaddafi would leave his own country, If he says that "Everyone loves him".

Most Possibly other members of Gaddafi's family?

by **Grufftoof** Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:42 am

Second guessing him does appear to be a pointless exercise that's for sure Smile

by **Tollir** Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:58 am

Aye, With someone like Gaddafi, You can't honestly be sure what he does until he does it. Quite sad really. Lets hope that No-fly zone gets through, Atleast that'll try and do something Question

by **Antistia** Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:08 pm

Manielus wrote:Aye, With someone like Gaddafi, You can't honestly be sure what he does until he does it. Quite sad really. Lets hope that No-fly zone gets through, Atleast that'll try and do something

The US and NATO are currently trying to work around Russian and Chinese vetoes to any resolution in the UNSC regarding a no-fly zone. Their intention is to intervene without a UN mandate if need be. The idea is that the surrounding international organizations agree to NATO intervening to give it legitimacy.

Of course, the use of force is not preferable but Gaddafi can't be allowed to do these things.

But with a U.N. mandate far from assured, those considering some form of intervention - including the United States, Britain, France and Italy - are looking for alternative support, officials said.

Officials, saying international support could come from regional blocs, noted that NATO's air attacks on Serbia in 1999 came without U.N. backing.

"If you have [support from] the Arab League, the African Union, NATO and potentially the European Union, you have every country within 5,000 miles of Libya," a NATO official said. "That gives you a certain level of legitimacy."

I believe this is a good thing. If these organizations agree then intervention has a certain legitimacy. It is not the legitimacy of the United Nations but it is legitimacy nonetheless. You cannot expect the UNSC to ensure such a no-fly zone is enacted, even if it is preferable that they do. The reason is simple. Russia and China both hold vetoes. Russia seems to have a few weapon deals with Libya but another fact that they (and China too) might veto it goes beyond that.

Neither Russia nor China are democratic. They are authoritarian states. If such a no-fly zone is imposed through the UN, a precedent will be set. This precedent would mean that they could not turn on their population if their population would demand regime change.

Source for quote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/08/AR2011030805868.html?hpid=topnews

by Sponsored content