Re: Middle-East & North African Discussion

by **Grufftoof** Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:55 am

“The UN Security Council should meet in emergency session tonight and declare the situation in Libya as a threat to peace under Chapter 7 of the UN Charter and declare a no flight zone for the Libyan Air Force and ask the regional power, NATO, to enforce it from dawn tomorrow.
“And hopefully other Arab nations, particularly Egypt, might decide to participate to demonstrate that this is not just a Western initiative.”
Lord Owen went on to call for:
“…air forces in the region with sufficient range to reach Libya to prevent any Libyan Air Force military action against civilians.”

by **Antistia** Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:58 am

Good, now I'm gonna hope that is going to happen before things get even worse.

by **Grufftoof** Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:09 am

Lord Owen is a pretty well respected crossbencher and leader of the SDP (Social Democratic Party). He's been involved in the Near / Mid East since the Suez Crisis 1956.

Whether his call will be heard, however...

by **Antistia** Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:27 am

grufftoof wrote:Lord Owen is a pretty well respected crossbencher and leader of the SDP (Social Democratic Party). He's been involved in the Near / Mid East since the Suez Crisis 1956.

Whether his call will be heard, however...

Yeah that remains to be seen. The Libyan mission to the UN has also called for the UNSC to impose a no flight zone over Libyan cities to keep mercenaries from being flown in. The mission has also called upon the Libyan army to march on Tripoli and "... Cut the snake's head"

They haven't said who they'd like to see enforce the no flight zone though.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110222/wl_nm/us_libya_un_mission;_ylt=Aof3rIgpe1SomqpIDTzxm41vaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTJwY2hiOGM1BGFzc2V0A25tLzIwMTEwMjIyL3VzX2xpYnlhX3VuX21pc3Npb24EcG9zAzE3BHNlYwN5bl9hcnRpY2xlX3N1bW1hcnlfbGlzdARzbGsDbGlieWFuZGlwbG9t

by **Geneviève** Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:39 am

Not a good time to be calling for commitment from NATO. The RAF is falling apart under the strain of Herrick XIII. The USA whilst boasting the world’s first and second most powerful air forces ( USAF #1, USN #2, Hoo-Rah!) are also struggling under the weight of commitments too numerous to mention.

NATO might turn to other member states for aid but whilst I am trying to remain diplomatic I feel increasingly betrayed by an ever diminishing commitment from the ‘auxiliary’ members of NATO. Hopefully they’ll surprise me and I look forward to eating my words, my faith needs restoring.

by **Antistia** Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:49 am

Geneviève wrote:Not a good time to be calling for commitment from NATO. The RAF is falling apart under the strain of Herrick XIII. The USA whilst boasting the world’s first and second most powerful air forces ( USAF #1, USN #2, Hoo-Rah!) are also struggling under the weight of commitments too numerous to mention.

NATO might turn to other member states for aid but whilst I am trying to remain diplomatic I feel increasingly betrayed by an ever diminishing commitment from the ‘auxiliary’ members of NATO. Hopefully they’ll surprise me and I look forward to eating my words, my faith needs restoring.

You're forgetting the US mothball air force stationed in Tucson which can be combat ready in a week. Third largest air force in the world, hooah!

And yes, a lot of the smaller members of NATO are forgetting their obligations, unfortunately
the Netherlands is one of them (a little bit, at least). Anyway, I can understand your feelings, no, I share your feelings. The Italians, Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese and maybe the Turks could enforce it though. They have the troops for it and gaining experience is never a bad thing.

by **Geldar** Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:49 am

As journalists from CNN mentioned, with the current events, Ghadaffi is probably going to remain in power for two more weeks. Reigan said back in the day that he was the mad-dog of the middle east, and one can only hope that when people get to him, because I am sure that with the current events that its a matter of time before the army turns on him, that he ends like the Romanian political elite back in 1989, the entire family of Cheushenko.

by **Antistia** Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:07 pm

A little gem by the Libyan ambassador to China:

""I used to work in this, the Hitler embassy," he said, pointing towards the embassy compound in central Beijing. "I quit about four days ago, when I saw on TV my people being killed by Hitler, Gadhafi. I tell him: 'Finish! Game over. Get out!'""

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/02/22/libya.china.resignation/index.html

by **Kil'drakor** Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:00 pm

A prime example of Godwin's Law, lololol.

by **Nithel** Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:14 pm

And yes, a lot of the smaller members of NATO are forgetting their obligations, unfortunately

Aren't most NATO and EU countries restructuring their armies into quicker response armies to aide peacekeeping? I believe Belgium is. Ever since our joining of the NATO we build off our 'offensive military' and based ourselves more on protective and defensive military if that makes sense. I believe we're some of the best minesweepers in the world. (Specialising in sea mines.)

But yeah, a no-fly zone would probably help. :/ Horrible to think that they use bombardments on civilians.

by **Antistia** Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:20 pm

Nithel wrote:
And yes, a lot of the smaller members of NATO are forgetting their obligations, unfortunately
Aren't most NATO and EU countries restructuring their armies into quicker response armies to aide peacekeeping? I believe Belgium is. Ever since our joining of the NATO we build off our 'offensive military' and based ourselves more on protective and defensive military if that makes sense. I believe we're some of the best minesweepers in the world. (Specialising in sea mines.)

But yeah, a no-fly zone would probably help. :/ Horrible to think that they use bombardments on civilians.

Yeah I believe there is a restructuring going on in most NATO countries. It is no excuse to abandon your allies though. The Cold War doctrines have also proven to be ineffective (part of the reason the US/NATO aren't doing so well in low intensity conflicts) as such we are developing new doctrines afaik.

by **Kil'drakor** Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:23 pm

On a side note, lol@Iran for trying to get into a war to distract its citizens and prevent removal of the regime. Iranian warships are crossing the Suez as we speak.

by **Grufftoof** Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:34 pm

It is an "interesting diversion" though the ships are no threat at all to anyone (they're ancient hulks, compared to the shit that Israel or others could have there as a "greeting party").

It is, however, sabre rattling and show of the highest order. It's also fucking stupid, to be fair.

by **Geldar** Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:54 pm

Tehe, Nostradamus predicted the 3rd world war will start in the Middle East, 2012, HERE WE COME!

by **Seranita** Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:17 pm

dont say that man!! :S

by **Grufftoof** Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:11 pm

Gaddafi in rambling speech on state TV

I'm sure the actual video/transcript will be available shortly.

But it's interesting... this is "obviously" the fault and problem caused by the "rats and rodents", the British and Americans who invaded Libya...?!

He was only setting the people free when he bombed and shot his own...

by **Kil'drakor** Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:14 pm

Apparently the troops also pulled the plug on protesters in the ICU. Now that's determination.

by **Antistia** Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:58 pm

Krunch wrote:On a side note, lol@Iran for trying to get into a war to distract its citizens and prevent removal of the regime. Iranian warships are crossing the Suez as we speak.

The problem is not so much the ships themselves but the fact that one of them can carry quite a few supplies. Assuming they are carrying these supplies it is a quite a save bet that they will end up in Syrian hands or Hezbollah's. Neither of which is really a good prospect for Israel.

by **Jayse** Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:07 pm

Christ, it's reaching crisis point.. This isn't good.. All this military activity from differing sides and reason. Once the US jumps in with both feet in the name of freedom and democracy, it's going to kick off royally.

Not to mention extremist groups will start to take this all to thier advantage, i'd wager at least if I was a betting man.

But I do hold admiration for any of the soliders and thier officers there who are directly going against such bullshit orders from high command. It takes some fucking balls to stand up and be counted like that, rifle in your hand or not.

by **Krogon Devilstep** Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:12 pm

Antistia wrote:
Krunch wrote:On a side note, lol@Iran for trying to get into a war to distract its citizens and prevent removal of the regime. Iranian warships are crossing the Suez as we speak.

The problem is not so much the ships themselves but the fact that one of them can carry quite a few supplies. Assuming they are carrying these supplies it is a quite a save bet that they will end up in Syrian hands or Hezbollah's. Neither of which is really a good prospect for Israel.

the israelies being the smart chaps they are, bought several german built Diesel engine submarines. rest assured, and take it from me, these iranian ships will be followed Closely and their cargo not lost sight of. And if it is ultimately sabre rattling, a torpedo has more Effect...

...look at HMS Conquerors sinking of the Belgrano in the falklands war *shrug* ...though this may be a setup to cause a flash point for a wider conflit on israel by several nations, now that would make the shit hit the fan.

by **Rasonal Dranger** Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:10 pm

Krogon/Sulthar wrote:
Antistia wrote:
Krunch wrote:On a side note, lol@Iran for trying to get into a war to distract its citizens and prevent removal of the regime. Iranian warships are crossing the Suez as we speak.

The problem is not so much the ships themselves but the fact that one of them can carry quite a few supplies. Assuming they are carrying these supplies it is a quite a save bet that they will end up in Syrian hands or Hezbollah's. Neither of which is really a good prospect for Israel.

the israelies being the smart chaps they are, bought several german built Diesel engine submarines. rest assured, and take it from me, these iranian ships will be followed Closely and their cargo not lost sight of. And if it is ultimately sabre rattling, a torpedo has more Effect...

...look at HMS Conquerors sinking of the Belgrano in the falklands war *shrug* ...though this may be a setup to cause a flash point for a wider conflit on israel by several nations, now that would make the shit hit the fan.

Yellow submarine.. yellow submarine.. yellow submarine. The long arm of justice!

by **Geneviève** Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:19 pm

That Libyan is an absolute hero. It takes balls to stand up as an individual and say something like that. Major respect.

by **Gunnell** Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:24 pm

Foreign Secretary William Hague announced that HMS Cumberland would be deployed into international waters near Libya in preparation for a response to the protests there.

Read it on BBC news, prolly old by now but it looks like this is getting funner and funner.

by **Krogon Devilstep** Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:31 pm

Gunnell wrote:
Foreign Secretary William Hague announced that HMS Cumberland would be deployed into international waters near Libya in preparation for a response to the protests there.

Read it on BBC news, prolly old by now but it looks like this is getting funner and funner.

one frigate... odd. likely gonna join up with a Nato task group.

by **Grufftoof** Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:56 pm

The "line" is that it's there to help evacuate, along with some "planes they've chartered". That's the line stated more than once today since that was mentioned.

Let me find it...

Edit:
"William Hague said earlier that, as well as working with airlines to help as many British nationals leave as possible, the Foreign Office was sending a charter plane to Libya in the next 48 hours and HMS Cumberland was being redeployed from the eastern Mediterranean to international waters near Libya."

Like I said, it's the line. And one ship doesn't an active deterrent make...

The UK government are getting some massive stick for doing very little, very late (seemingly) for the UK nationals in Libya. We shall see.

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