Racism conversation

By "fifth" thread" I dont mean about this topic exactly but like there has been a lot of threads about controversial topics and they all just derailed into flame wars :p but whatever, Im not going to get involved so feel free to rip each other apart haha .

I think most of us just got fed up with the nickpick crew that called us shit admins as soon as we modded stuff.

Might just be me though. Anyhow, at least I haven't seen personal attacks here yet, mostly discussion about offense.

Meh, It's just I get enough " fag " and " queer " from certain family members in the wrong sence, To prefer it not to be flung in my face when I play a video game.

Vectoria wrote:Meh, It's just I get enough " fag " and " queer " from certain family members in the wrong sence,

I'm truly sorry and I feel for you, but think about it. Isn't it the "wrong sense" that bothers you? Is it other people's fault, people who are totally unrelated to that and possibly never had anything against you, to be "cornered" for saying a -word- they did not even mean the way you receive it?

Also, brits tend to refer to smokes as "fags", as Jakins pointed out. Do you report them everytime they say they go afk to smoke?

Understand, here, I am not attacking you (or anyone else), just giving you examples you live and apply the things I say, to show you that it's really not necessary to feel offended. And the whole "offended" deal has been too far-fetched, over the last several years, not ingame, but in general.

100% of the homosexual people I know irl or online takes offense at gay being used as a swear word.

It goes beyond intent or context.

"Takes" offense, even gramatically, means that they choose to "take" offense, as subjects to the verb. Compare "I offend" and "you take offense".

One might "take offense" every time I say "rainbow" because it's "the symbol of homosexuals". Do you honestly expect me to stop using the word "rainbow" too? Fuck that, tbh, not cool at all. If <x group of people> thinks "this word should not be used" and their view is respected, I expect the same respect of my own view that "it doesn't mean a thing, get over it". I don't agree that it goes beyond intent or context at all, sorry.

There's no reason to nitpick, and nothing to discuss really. They take offense.

Saali wrote:100% of the homosexual people I know irl or online takes offense at gay being used as a swear word.

It goes beyond intent or context.

Really? I work with several gay people who don't take offense at gay being used as a swear word, If I said said to a gay person 'You're fag' I would expect them to take offense, if I said to a gay person 'That film was gay', if they take offense to that, they got issues with their sexuality, I mean, yeah, it's tough being gay in this world, but if everytime the word gay is being used offends someone then its their problem, its like my raid leader says 'Jesus fucking christ' whenever we do a terrible wipe, if there are religious people in the guild, they don't take offense from it, because he's just expressing himself, not saying, 'fuck jesus christ'.

If it wasn't directed to them, which it wasn't, there is no need to, nor is it a crime to say things like that. It's always people it's not even directed or related to that "take offense". Which is kinda silly.

Uh. "They" <_< Individuals take offence, groups don't. I doubt any number of friends are representative for every gay person out there. But at any rate, people can always try to be a bit polite and not write stuff they know offends others.

Like so; I don't usually write that stuff is gay or whatever (I'm nore into genital stuff), but if I did, and I read this thread, I might make a little bit of an effort to not write those kind of comments to Vectoria for example.

No crimes commited. We live, we learn, and so forth.

You're White - Why does no one take offense?
You're Gay - Why do people take offense?

Its verbal expressions. There is no NEED to care about it at all. You can be a very nice person and yet have a very foul language. I for one will never ever tell my kids off for swearing, I think its ridiculous. If you know when to and when not to use it, that is good enough.

No one was pointing fingers saying "you are a fag". Someone was expressing a feeling of frustration for having an account hacked, I don't see the issue at all with that. Its human, very normal, and quite frankly healthy if you ask me. Get the rage out I say

Saali wrote:There's no reason to nitpick, and nothing to discuss really. They take offense.

How on earth is that an inkling more valid and legitimate than "They should not, really. Not my problem, nor do I intend it to become. Thanks." ?

Uh. "They" <_< Individuals take offence, groups don't.

Do keep in mind, "they" is also the word used for "he or she" when the gender is not defined in a sentence

"I was poked to go help someone with a groupquest"
"Do they need my help too?" (cause the speaker doesn't know if it's a "he" or a "she" in this case)

Morgeth wrote:Uh. "They" <_< Individuals take offence, groups don't. I doubt any number of friends are representative for every gay person out there. But at any rate, people can always try to be a bit polite and not write stuff they know offends others.

Like so; I don't usually write that stuff is gay or whatever (I'm nore into genital stuff), but if I did, and I read this thread, I might make a little bit of an effort to not write those kind of comments to Vectoria for example.

No crimes commited. We live, we learn, and so forth.

Sounds like communism to me, if it offends someone, censor it?

Reckon you're right, and Saali might've meant all of her/his friends, not all DA GAY PEOPLE IN DA WORLD. Sorry, Saali!


My main point still stands though, I suppose. Whatever.. that was.

And Tashun, I'd say that's more my own persona. I prefer not to offend people, it makes it easier to interact with them, and if I ever need to score some forsaken anger, I might want to be on friendly terms with Vectoria. It's not a dictation of rules or censorship upon you. So relax, breathe easy, and all that.

Yes, "they" being "those people I mentioned earlier".

Nayan wrote:

Saali wrote:There's no reason to nitpick, and nothing to discuss really. They take offense.

How on earth is that an inkling more valid and legitimate than "They should not, really. Not my problem, nor do I intend it to become. Thanks." ?

You can't discuss if someone takes offense or not. Either people do, or people don't.
There's obviously an "oh grow the fuck up and wipe your tears"-limit as to what people should be offended about, but something as intimate as one's sexuality? You'd better step carefully.

Change-

a. To cause to be different
a. To lay aside, abandon, or leave for another; switch
5. To give or receive the equivalent of (money) in lower denominations or in foreign currency.
6. To put a fresh covering on: change a bed; change the baby.


Point is - Words mean different things, all the time, say if I were giving a customer money and said:
"Here's your change"
He can perceive it in two different ways:
1. He can say "Thank you" taking the money, understanding I implied change as his money back.
2. He can say "What?" not understanding, thinking I implied a change of himself, e.g. change of hairstyle, "Here's your change"

Same applies to gay
"That game is gay"
It can be perceived in two different ways:
1. The term gay is a placeholder for a stronger word such as shit, "That game is shit"
2. It can be seen as saying the game is targetted towards homosexuals, e.g. The game was designed for gays "The game is gay"

It's perception, and as I perceive it, people are being over the top when being offended, using any excuse to be offended by a highly topical word.

Forget personal perception, in my eyes, and focus more on overall group perception. I see why people might innocently use "that's so gay", having no idea what it means, but when someone uses terms like "fag" and "queer" - offensive words or not - you can tell they have a perfect understanding of what they mean, and are using them as an motivated insult towards homosexuality. This is, ofcourse, not your own perception - but an overall worldwide perception. Trying to convince yourself that "fag" and "queer" are said unintentionally is pretty much impossible when the understanding of such words are clearly implanted into everyday society (in contrast, "that's so gay", although implemented into everyday society, is considered meaningless nowadays unless the person puts actual thought into where the insult originated from...).

Compare the above with the common stereotype of homosexuality. Regardless of what others may think, most people as a whole tend to view gay males as being overly effeminate and "girly", with females being "butch". These stereotypes are so implemented into today's society, like the above insults, that whenever anyone is asked "1 in 10 people are said to be gay, who here would you say you thought was gay?" - rather than question the questioner's sexuality themselves (which I would say is the most obvious thing to do), they always pick the most feminine males; followed by masculine females... Well, that's from the 10 times I have tested it. Surprisingly, I'm never picked - and, when I come out as gay to friends, I've always been told "You don't seem like the person", or laughed at after the person originally thought it was in jest.

You're White - Why does no one take offense?
You're Gay - Why do people take offense?

No-one takes offence to "You're White" because people's views of the "normal" person involve a Straight, slim but toned, Middle-Aged, Middle class, Caucasian man with Blonde Hair, Blue eyes, A beautiful wife of the same description and two children (also of the same description) - a boy and girl. Man works, Women is housewife, children play whilst woman takes care of all chores and looking after children. Husband is leader, wife is carer etc.

Hence, "You're White" is considered a compliment, as is "You're thin" or "You're muscular". In comparison, "You're fat", "You're gay", "You're [insert skin colour that I can't legally type here]", "You're poor", "A woman can't do a man's job" etc. are considered insults - as they don't fit the views of "normality" or perfection.

HARDEN THE FUCK UP

Get some perspective.

Back in my days the only time we used the word gay was to describe the twenties. I still remember strolling around in New york on the pavement thinking what a merry day it was.

Etular, at which point did Azume say "thats faggish/queer"? She didn't? Your top half of the arguement is invalid.

Second half, so you're saying the past dictates the future? Because dumb shits in <insert racist era> told people that a certain so and so is perfect, people have to believe it for the rest of history? We're at the point in the 21st century where gays, blacks, asians, fat people, etc. are just as accepted in society as everyone else, ofc you get the odd country such as, somewhere in africa where a gay couple got married and then sent to prison for that, but tbh, it's all bullshit tbh.

Guys, that last sentence offended me, I'm going to blacklist Flintstones

Saali wrote:There's obviously an "oh grow the fuck up and wipe your tears"-limit as to what people should be offended about, but something as intimate as one's sexuality? You'd better step carefully.

Completely agreed there. Thing is, here we don't discuss any "you fucking faggot!" comment towards a homosexual person. There is no "one's sexuality" involved. It was dragged in. The comment was "that's gay". About the fact the poor lad couldn't login. Noone was discussing anyone's sexuality.

Tashun, that's exactly what I told Vect ingame too, earlier ^^

Etular, I am not sure if I should just repeat what I've said, as your replies are stated already. In short:

1. Forget personal perception? Sure. Forget yours too, though. Forget "gay" as "offensive" to you.
2. Focus on group perception? Why? Did I address that group? No. Did I ever express negativity towards them? No. Mind their own business? Yes.
3. "Trying to convince yourself that "fag" and "queer" are said unintentionally is pretty much impossible when the understanding of such words are clearly implanted into everyday society". Newsflash. Everyday society has said words (along with "gay" and others), meaning other things too. Open a dictionary.
4. "No-one takes offence to "You're White" because people's views of the "normal" person involve a Straight, slim but toned, Middle-Aged, Middle class, Caucasian man with Blonde Hair, Blue eyes, A beautiful wife of the same description and two children (also of the same description) - a boy and girl. Man works, Women is housewife, children play whilst woman takes care of all chores and looking after children. Husband is leader, wife is carer etc."
Is that the people's views in China too?
Is that the black people's views of normal too?
*edit* Just noticed that: Middle-Aged?? >.> So, while growing up, you are not normal, and after 45 you should be scorned according to the group of people you take your data from? >.>
Is a single person "not normal"?
Blonde hair, blue eyes?

...dude. You are not describing "the normal view", you are describing the 3rd Reich. Reconsider, please, I can't take that seriously. If you want to tell me how I mean a word, basing it off what other people think as normal, you got something wrong in your line of thought.

...PS: "You're [insert skin colour that I can't legally type here]" ...Green?

Aye. We loose the un-spoken social rules when we remove the person from the social intereaction. Were just names on each other screens basically, If you just met someone the typical person would consider what, and what not to say to them. It's important to take the time to know someone before you say something that may or may not offend them. With that said, I apologise if my replies were snappy. But I do not accept the " It's the internet, get over it. " excuse, However I welcome healthly debate on the topic and once again apologise if my attitutude might've suggested otherwise.