Racism conversation

Baltram/Numerius wrote:Meh, I never understood their need for celebrations and parades. Why straight people don't parade? Well, we do, but with diffirent reasons, and not to show that we're straight. Hrm... That's to the reading that thread on DB forum, btw.

So I say, if you're a gay, live a normal life and don't spoil it. I don't spoil that I'm straight, for example. ...though I am straight guys, believe me!

In my eyes, the whole "Gay Pride" thing is mostly for either meeting up with others who are also gay (because, let's face it, we are a minority - and to ask a random person "Are you gay?" may offend the other person) and as a sign of "Hello, we're here! We don't appreciate homophobic people's opinions and seek protection through equality from these people!" etc.

Jomir/Nastor/Gannas wrote:How are your Norway plans coming along?

So far, so good. My plan is still on track. Aiming for A's or above? Check. Probably getting A's or above? Check. Probably going to be doing A levels? Check. Probably going to get enough A levels to go to Oxford or Cambridge University? Hopefully Check. Learning a Programming Language? Check. Now, I just need to find a way to find the money to move to Sandefjord and (hopefully) get a job with Funcom or another Games Programming Company.

Nayan wrote:

Gnash wrote:This thread is black. (Makes as little sense as 'this thread is gay', wouldn't you say?)

No, not at all. I wouldn't say.

I'd like to see you elaborate on this. Quite frankly, Gnash put forward the point I had tried to make in the bluntest way possible - which I was, ofcourse, afraid to do due to possible legal implications. I applaud you, Gnash. Still, yes, I'd like to see your answer to why "This thread is black" is oh-so different to "This thread is gay". Both are seen as derogatory terms (even though using the skin colour as a derogative term is viewed as illegal nowadays due to people preaching "Racism!" at the slightest thing), both were made derogative terms by "the vast majority" of people at the time whom were afraid or hateful of these people - thus, using each word as a synonym for "bad" (until Human Rights stepped in for "Racism"), both make little to no sense when used (As I said, "This is Gay!" implies homosexuality. Why? Because it was originally made by Homophobes. Same with "This is Black!" in referance to the skin tone - Originally made by Racists).

The reason "This is Black" is not used as much as "This is Gay" nowadays among our youths? Simple - in Philosophy and Beliefs/Citizenship classes, we are taught over a vast period of years to respect blacks, skin colour makes no difference to the person they are and not insult them because of which. Without that education (and without interference from parents), it is highly likely life would revert back to it's old, racist ways. As for gays, there is often no education whatsoever on it. Any information or facts that I, myself - a gay person - have found out about this are from the internet. There's no real protection for Gays (except in Scandinavian Countries, like Norway and Sweden), teachers often encourage language suggesting an effeminate person is worse (e.g. "Come on, Girlies! Man up!") - and homophobic parents push their view onto children. All this equals, overall, children being brought up brainwashed to believe that straights are superior to gays. Like a homophobic K.K.K - and we all know what they did, even if that is a bit of an extremist view.

Nayan wrote:

'That's gay' is never used in another manner than derogatory.

It's called a language. "That's gay" = derogatory. "He's gay" = not derogatory.

"He's gay" could also be seen as derogative, assuming the person doesn't identify as such. Examples can be found in those whom have committed suicide after people have called them "Gay!" countless times, telling others "He's gay, let's mock him" etc. The only time it's not derogative is if the individual or group use it or see it in an empowering sort of way, and the person it's used against identifies as such.

Nayan wrote:
Tell you what. Let's forget the "gay" part.

Okay, let's digress from the main topic for a moment to see an example from a unrelated topic's point of view...

Nayan wrote:
Some guy comes towards you, fists clenched, mumbling "you sick fuck!".
Wouldn't you think the context implies he kinda tries to insult you (and then beat the crap outta you as well, but eh)
Lose that image. You're in bed with your gf. She sighs "fuck me". Would you really take offense in it?

Despite the fact that I wouldn't be in bed with a GF to begin with, it depends on the person's tone of voice to whether or not you take offence in this case. For example, if she said it in a seductive or excited tone - you would take it as a compliment. On the otherhand, if she said it as a depressive sigh, then yes - you would be offended, as she'd be most likely be criticising you or your surroundings with that tone of voice. If said in a depressive tone then, ofcourse, it would be seen as her being upset.

Now, I would compare it to gay, but I can't think of a single time when "That's so gay" doesn't mean "That's so S---" where "S---" has been replaced with "Gay" to prevent the other person being told off. It started out as a homophobic slur against gays, when the vast majority had formerly made taboo anything even vaguely resembled as being "gay" in a positive light - and it only being viewed negatively, but now it's used in common everyday language as another word for "bad" - much like the word "black" was formerly used. Hence, I see it as my duty to mention "Hey, people (not necessarily myself) might find that offensive due to the fact that, in reality, it originates from... And means... Thus, it is used mostly as a homophobic slur - much like black was used as a racist slur".

Nayan wrote:
Words have more than one meaning. If you want to "grab" a word and isolate it and take offense JUST because it also means something else, that's your problem, nothing I want to be dragged into. Sometimes written speech is hard to decipher when it comes to intentions, yes. "That movie is gay" is not one of these cases.

I compare it again to "black/N----r" - which, archaically, meant both "bad" and Skin Colour, "S---/Cr--" - which is used as an insult and as poop (yet, when used both ways it is taboo), "F---" - which is used as an insult and as sex (also taboo), "Wh---" meaning prostitute/insult etc.

The point I'm making, is that this could be said for every single word and every meaning of a word, but surely even you have some verbal taboos - words in which you refuse to say due to their suspected "offence" or "wrongness". If not, I assume you get a heck of alot of trouble with the police for freely using the words "N----r", "S---", "F---", "B------" etc. - either in front of children or not...

Gnash wrote:The whole "It's the internet, deal with it -- everyone is blunt here yadda yadda yadda" argument is valid, IF you're speaking to complete strangers. Yeah, nobody gives a shit in that case if you get offended. But I like to think that people that use this forum aren't complete strangers. We're a community (or do we just claim to be?), and because of that a certain degree of respect to one another, especially on painful issues as race and sexuality, should be the norm.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Whether we're friendly with eachother or not, I have little faith with those on the internet purely due to the fact that, on the internet, everyone puts on an alter-ego of self-perceived arrogance - as, quite frankly, no-one knows eachother in real life and everyone wants to show off and appear "the best". Even I, myself, whilst maintaining some civility and maturity - am willing to severely stress my point and argument to it's fullest extent because I know the worst I can receive (other than a ban) would be a torrent of others doing the exact same. Ofcourse, I have no qualms with those of other races, sexes, sexualities etc. and would never insult or express my opinions against it - despite, admittedly, being slightly racist and sexist myself.

Etular wrote:I'd like to see you elaborate on this. Quite frankly, Gnash put forward the point I had tried to make in the bluntest way possible - which I was, ofcourse, afraid to do due to possible legal implications. I applaud you, Gnash. Still, yes, I'd like to see your answer to why "This thread is black" is oh-so different to "This thread is gay". Both are seen as derogatory terms (even though using the skin colour as a derogative term is viewed as illegal nowadays due to people preaching "Racism!" at the slightest thing), both were made derogative terms by "the vast majority" of people at the time whom were afraid or hateful of these people - thus, using each word as a synonym for "bad" (until Human Rights stepped in for "Racism"), both make little to no sense when used (As I said, "This is Gay!" implies homosexuality. Why? Because it was originally made by Homophobes. Same with "This is Black!" in referance to the skin tone - Originally made by Racists).

Here's a little something:

This thread is cool beans.

This thread is cool mosquitos.

When you reply to me why you don't see the second used, instead of the first, I'll also reply to you that question. The word "gay" has that meaning as well. The word "black" doesn't. Live with it. Complain to mankind for giving that sense to the word. I don't care. It's there. And you will not censor it because you feel insecure about the rest of its meaning. Hope that made it clear for you.

The reason "This is Black" is not used as much as "This is Gay" nowadays among our youths? Simple - in Philosophy and Beliefs/Citizenship classes, we are taught over a vast period of years to respect blacks, skin colour makes no difference to the person they are and not insult them because of which. Without that education (and without interference from parents), it is highly likely life would revert back to it's old, racist ways. As for gays, there is often no education whatsoever on it. Any information or facts that I, myself - a gay person - have found out about this are from the internet. There's no real protection for Gays (except in Scandinavian Countries, like Norway and Sweden), teachers often encourage language suggesting an effeminate person is worse (e.g. "Come on, Girlies! Man up!") - and homophobic parents push their view onto children. All this equals, overall, children being brought up brainwashed to believe that straights are superior to gays. Like a homophobic K.K.K - and we all know what they did, even if that is a bit of an extremist view.

Lovely. I assure you I received no "gays are not bad" lecture at school. Still, I don't give a fuck what they do in their bed, nor do I see them as "lesser" for what they like. So much for your "reason".

it depends on the person's tone of voice to whether or not you take offence in this case. For example, if she said it in a seductive or excited tone - you would take it as a compliment. On the otherhand, if she said it as a depressive sigh, then yes - you would be offended, as she'd be most likely be criticising you or your surroundings with that tone of voice. If said in a depressive tone then, ofcourse, it would be seen as her being upset.

Then why the fuck do you have two different reactions to the same word in this case, but not in the case of the word "gay"? Isn't "fuck me" in a frustrated context not the same? No. Of course it's not the same. You even prove it in the quote above. But you will ramble on to stand your mistaken and selective view, won't you?

I compare it again to "black/N----r" - which, archaically, meant both "bad" and Skin Colour, "S---/Cr--" - which is used as an insult and as poop (yet, when used both ways it is taboo), "F---" - which is used as an insult and as sex (also taboo), "Wh---" meaning prostitute/insult etc.

There's several cases where you will see a person call another "nigger", "whore", "fucker" and most likely the rest of the incoherent dash-cryptic words you array there, without anyone taking offense. (edit: and I've never heard "nigger" meaning "bad", either)

If you would like to discuss discrimination and limiting of rights, let's do that. I'm tired of all the "non smokers' rights" that oppress the smokers in the name of political correctness, all the "GTLB rights" that oppress the rest of us in how we act and how we phrase ourselves even when we do not discriminate them by default, all the "feminist rights" that fuck over men in jobs, family law, etc, etc, etc. So, because I'm a straight smoker man, I have to keep my mouth shut and take it, while watching black guys call each other "nigger" freely, women spreading their legs to get 5 kids and then secure a job "for social criteria" and have to smoke outside in -5 degrees?

Seriously, fuck that. Call me a racist all you like, you are unfair and wrong. Got tired of that shit.

I never understood that attitude. Ever. Remember, your freedom ends where another man's starts. And by saying "this film was gay", I do nothing to your freedom. By saying "you can't say the word gay", you do.

If it's still not clear, there's not much else I can do to help you. I can promise you, though, I won't stop using the phrasings I use.

PS:

due to the fact that, on the internet, everyone puts on an alter-ego of self-perceived arrogance - as, quite frankly, no-one knows eachother in real life and everyone wants to show off and appear "the best".

That's "over the internet" on the contrary to "rl"? You haven't gone outside lately, have you? That is everywhere in "rl".

PPS: Sorry if the tone seems harsh, but I've had it with the qq, frankly. Be offended. I don't care any more.

Nayan wrote:I don't care any more.

Join me in my nihilism. I sleep with Nietzsche under my bed.
It's the good life.

Your picture is really good Nithel.

This thread is the result of people forgetting one of the most important rules of the Internet:
Your age, gender, sexual preferences, nationality, the colour of your skin, etc are competely irrelevant here. There's no reason to even bring them up.

In here you are not a white caucasian straight male aged 27 or a black afro-american bi woman soon reaching 20.
You are a faceless human being.
THAT. IS. ALL.

As long as you keep yourself as that faceless person people treat you as you. Once you bring in more descriptive qualities, people you are dealing with start to adjust their view of you according to their (sub)conscious prejudices.

Wow, that's perfectly explained, but it's near to impossible to remain faceless forever.
(Which pretty much kills the whole point)

This thread is bisexual.

Gnash wrote:This thread is black. (Makes as little sense as 'this thread is gay', wouldn't you say?)

EDIT: This whole discussion is just worthy of a /facepalm. 'That's gay' is never used in another manner than derogatory. I'm not saying you should get banned because of it, but I'll surely understand if the gays refuse to dance around a bonfire with anyone who uses the term that way. It may be a bit political correct of me to say, but I don't think that anything that defines a human being in such a major way should be used as a derogatory expression.

Was my first thing to do, after being on holiday, so not being able to reply really. I just though Gnash comment above more or less summed up my feelings.

Then again, I found it hard to read through some of the shite here. Not from either "side" or any "person" just because, it's a forum, even the avatars make points difficult to read when there is 9 pages...

WRT "rights". A way I think of "rights" isn't that I am "wronged" by them not effecting me. You've gotta see why a push for "rights" exist. It's because at some point people in certain groups didn't have those rights (smoking is a bit of a bad one here, the reason smoking is banned in most countries inside is because of health, and everyone obviously deserves not to die of cancer because they visit or work in a bar). "Rights" is a term meant to make people equal. It's "Equal Rights" if you wanna bring it down. It's Equal Rights for Gays, for Blacks, for Jews, for the Disabled. It's Equal Rights for any group or peoples. Because we deserve equality.

Inside we are all fucking the same (and, no I don't believe (most) of you think any different).

Theres more here about positive/negative discrimation (specifically wrt to employment etc) and that's a whole heap of stuff. And something maybe I could talk about more when I don't have to go run away.

But, I'd like to say this, and I don't know, or care that much, if people will think about it, or cry/whine/moan/bitch/smile/laugh.

If you think words, and the use of a word to describe something (negatively or positively) doesn't have impact.

Then how the hell do you RP? How do you enjoy a poem? A song? A book?

Words are important, they have meaning, history and power. Words are emotive, for good and bad. And that is important.

My penis stronger than your sword.

Or something.

PS. The internet may be a faceless being. But we're not in the fecking matrix. There are actual people here. So, yeah, the "this is the interwebs who you are doesn't matter" thing doesn't hold. At all.

And, you know, that's my personal opinion. As a person.

Grufftoof would probably laugh at you, and sell you a bomb to blow "da otha fukkaz up"

grufftoof wrote:
My penis stronger than your sword.

I'm sorry... But... I... Oh wow.

grufftoof wrote:Words are important, they have meaning, history and power. Words are emotive, for good and bad. And that is important.

Words have more than one meaning. Ignoring and smothering one meaning, for the sake of the other's "rights", is not really right.

The issue here is not about people who mock and discriminate sub-groups for their characteristics, Gruff. The issue is when I (a random person) never discriminate anyone and treat everyone regardless of their skintone, sexual preferences, gender, or you name it, and still get muted by them in return. You can't justify that any better than a racist can justify their attitude, sorry. *shrug*

In simplifying it 100%: did nothing to wrong someone -> that someone tries to confine you. why? because "other people, maybe, somewhere, at some point, did something wrong to them". I don't care. Wasn't me, won't be me, now off my back. Simple as that. What's so complicated? ._.

Racism is bad.

Yup.

Halya wrote:

grufftoof wrote:
My penis stronger than your sword.

I'm sorry... But... I... Oh wow.

See the power of words?!

That was my point. My penis indeed.

grufftoof wrote:See the power of words?!

That was my point. My penis indeed.

That was my point.

I know, I didn't mention cunt or such because I wasn't sure in all the pages if it was mentioned (I saw reference to Cunt Grope Lane). That's an interesting word as well.

Many feminists dislike the word vagina. Vagina as a word comes from the root meaning of a sheath for a sword. So, it's somewhere to put a cock. Simply. It's not a feminist word, it's masculine. Your body is mine, as a place to put my cock. Cunt is (linguistically argued over) but quite possibly from the root "to create" or ""wedge (shaped)". What it is "for" I guess (or how it looks?). And is a word many feminists try to "retake".

Does it work? I dunno. I like the word cunt, dislike the word vagina. Then again, I also dislike the word moist. It feels bad in the mouth (fnar fnar).

Cunt is a diffocult word to take back, because for 100s (if not over a 1000) years the word has also been used a dergoatory word.

Do I think it's right to use cunt, nigger, paki, gay as a description of something or someone WHEN describing that thing as being inferior, or broken (as in "that's gay" or "stupid cunt" etc), no, not really. Do I use cunt that way? Have I used gay that way? Yes. Should I? Probably not, always, no. Then again, maybe I hate everyone's hypocrisy. Apart from my own.

That's how I see it. The flip side of words is that they lead to conversations and discussions. And some can just go on an on, and never reach an agreement.

Does it mean I think this is a stupid discussion? No. Does it mean I think Nayan is "wrong"? No.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Just some people's opinions are wrong.

Sorry, first thing I thought when reading the "create" part was "Nonono, it's from I cunt get no, nanana nananananana naa" xD

But yeah, didn't know the origins of either word. I still don't see them as wrong. Sure, the "Your body is mine, as a place to put my cock." dumbification is wrong, but the general idea (without the "ownership" part) is surely fine? That is what happens in intercourse.

Anyway. I'm hungry and I got work, just wanted to comment on the above

Nayan wrote:"Nonono, it's from I cunt get no, nanana nananananana naa" xD

Ahem, ehm...

You may want to check your spelling next time >.>"

Jakins wrote:

Nayan wrote:"Nonono, it's from I cunt get no, nanana nananananana naa" xD

Ahem, ehm...

You may want to check your spelling next time >.>"

rofl xD

That was the point.. -.- Jeesh some people really are too uptight to read or hear anything that doesn't fit their universe, huh

my sister's friend used to call hers a "Whistle"

what she gets up to or where she got that from I do not know

This still going? Time to get the Habbo hotel meme pic again:

grufftoof wrote:
PS. The internet may be a faceless being. But we're not in the fecking matrix. There are actual people here. So, yeah, the "this is the interwebs who you are doesn't matter" thing doesn't hold. At all.

And, you know, that's my personal opinion. As a person.

Grufftoof would probably laugh at you, and sell you a bomb to blow "da otha fukkaz up"

Yes, there are actual people here. But those people aren't European or American or white or black or gay or straight or Christian or Muslim or whatever. Yes, they might and probably will define their identity with some of those or similar descriptions, but in the generally anonymous atmosphere of the Internet there's no need to bring any of that up apart from seeking special treatment or attention.

"Oh but we're not anonymous here". Yes we are, we have just given up a degree of that anonymity that is relevant to this particular community, ie. anything related to WoW such as our character names.
If you want to let go of any other part of your anonymity you should do it in a community relevant to that thing. Revealing unnecessary traits in unrelated environments is always done at your own risk and wether or not you get offended or hurt by the repercussions is your own fault. Sure, the person who just offended you may be pants on head stupid but that doesn't matter.

This IS the Interwebs and who you are DOESN'T matter. We're all people here and should treat each other accordingly.

Just because the internet is "generally anonymous" doesn't mean someone has to be? Was there a meeting I missed where I had to sign up to some specific terms of use of the web? Does that mean I, or you, or someone is after special treatment? I aint. I couldn't care less if this board jumped to conclusions about me, my gender, sexuality, race, religion. Ask me a question or let me bring it up in a discussion. I don't mind.

Or does it mean that they wish to discuss that thing (important to them/others) with others in discussion? We have threads here to discuss all sorts of stuff. And to discuss many (if not most) things we use our lives, ideals and ideas to make our basis for discussion. That in itself means we give something of us.

This isn't /b/. Nor does it have to be. If I wanted to post there, I would. If someone wants to discuss X factor (not the tv show, please, don't discuss that) here, then cool. Lets all discuss it, or not. That's a choice right there.

Anonymity doesn't have to be about labels: labels are a construct that even some people at the edge (or extreme) of some equal rights campaigns are pushing against now (Peter Tatchell asking the LGBT community why they need to use the label LGBT anymore... if they do it means they can't ever be equal, because they label themselves as different. And this is from the founder of Stonewall, the UK's "leading" LGBT rights group). Why do any of us need labels? Here or elsewhere?

This IS the Interwebs, yes. Who you are DOES matter (it makes you, you. It makes and moulds ever answer and question). Labels do not.


PS. Korko: My friend called hers her "foo-foo". Another her "flower". The best was my friends mum, who said "you can call it what you want love, just don't let anyone else call you by its name alone". If that makes sense. It did to me :p

While the topic of anonymity and the Internet isn't really that much related to this thread I'll continue this discussion a little while longer.
Actually, come to think of it, this would've been more suited in the RealID discussion a while back. (Where I said that I wouldn't have minded the use of our real names, as ironic and contradicting that might sound right now.)

grufftoof wrote:Just because the internet is "generally anonymous" doesn't mean someone has to be? Was there a meeting I missed where I had to sign up to some specific terms of use of the web? Does that mean I, or you, or someone is after special treatment? I aint. I couldn't care less if this board jumped to conclusions about me, my gender, sexuality, race, religion. Ask me a question or let me bring it up in a discussion. I don't mind.

And that is your choice. By bringing up these details about you, you also open up yourself to prejudices. If you aren't prepared to face them, don't bring them up.

Or does it mean that they wish to discuss that thing (important to them/others) with others in discussion? We have threads here to discuss all sorts of stuff. And to discuss many (if not most) things we use our lives, ideals and ideas to make our basis for discussion. That in itself means we give something of us.

This isn't /b/. Nor does it have to be. If I wanted to post there, I would. If someone wants to discuss X factor (not the tv show, please, don't discuss that) here, then cool. Lets all discuss it, or not. That's a choice right there.

This indeed isn't /b/ nor would I want this to be. (Even though some might argue that this is /db/.) I avoid the place. Nor am I strictly speaking of anonymity in the sense it's present on 4chan and other similar imageboards. I'm arguing that even if we give up tiny morsels of information about ourselves we will still remain largely anonymous due to the masks of Internet persona that we ALL wear. It comes with not being face-to-face with the people you're dealing with. Spoken word is such a small portion of human communication and written word is even less effective at conveying a message. With such a limited way of communication you're bound to remain anonymous.

And I agree, our cultural and religious views, ideals, ideas and our lives in general are the basis for discussion. However, there is a difference in saying "As a communist I feel that the Marxian utopia can be reached in 50 years if we try hard" instead of "I feel that the Marxian utopia can be reached in 50 years if we try hard". (Don't ask me where the example came from. I don't know.)
Both statements have the same opinion, but the first one has the added emphasis on the person making the statement. Him being a communist doesn't matter and adds nothing to the point. His opinion would've remained the same even if he had left that part out.

Now, the next part actually has something to do with this whole gay discussion this thread is/was about. As well as with what I've been saying here all the time. There's really no need to bring up your sexual preferences here. They don't matter. You're gay? Great. Good for you. Plenty other people are as well. What does that have to do with us? Nothing. I assume you don't say "Hi. By the way, I'm gay" when you greet someone.

This IS the Interwebs, yes. Who you are DOES matter (it makes you, you. It makes and moulds ever answer and question). Labels do not.

I have this feeling we're trying to make the same (or at least a similar) point here but we're just approaching it from different directions.
The Interwebs is an anonymous place. While it does matter to YOU who you are, it doesn't matter to OTHERS. Or rather, they don't need that information. Your views and opinions will remain the same even if others are unaware of the what might have caused you to form them.

And by this point I have gone back and forth this post, adding text here and there, forgetting what I have said and what I was going to say and leaving behind a very incoherent post. Bleh.