The discussion about the Shields gathers here.

Bravo. You're definatly making yourself seem even more mature. Seriously, do prove me wrong. I do want to. I don't like feeling this shit as I do. During these two days since I found this out I've felt like shit because I KNEW this would happen. I would think it was unfair, I would voice my and MANY other peoples opinions and then everyone thinks I'm an idiot and instead of proving me otherwise and acting mature.. Well yeah.

But yeah, congratulation. You've successfully made one Councilor feel like shit OOC. Only the rest to go. But I'm sure your insulting and all that will sort that out soon enough.

Julia wrote:Bravo. You're definatly making yourself seem even more mature. Seriously, do prove me wrong. I do want to. I don't like feeling this shit as I do. During these two days since I found this out I've felt like shit because I KNEW this would happen. I would think it was unfair, I would voice my and MANY other peoples opinions and then everyone thinks I'm an idiot and instead of proving me otherwise and acting mature.. Well yeah.

But yeah, congratulation. You've successfully made one Councilor feel like shit OOC. Only the rest to go. But I'm sure your insulting and all that will sort that out soon enough.

I fail to see how exactly he was insulting you, aside from bringing up an issue and trying to debate, one that was begun by you (One sarcastic comment aside which I personally felt was in no way a malicus attack at you, nor anyone) Just because god forbid somebody may disagree with you on something doesn't mean that said person wants to jump on the artillery and start gunning away at you. Throwing accusations around doesn't help proceedings, bad mood or not.

Yes, I know I look like a hypocrite.

I'm of course speaking of the weekly insults he throws to the Council as a whole. Which is, even though it might seem impossible, getting some of us to feel really bad about ourselves. But yeah.. I guess some people doesn't give a shit. Its just a game after all, right?

Julia wrote:Because otherwise it is forcing your RP on someone Like they tell us we do to them.

I'd also point out that the Guards aren't usually informed when a criminal element are planning something. It's part of the spontinaety, and feeds good guard RP (patrols etc. becoming necessary, rather than just for show) when you're having to second-guess your opposition. And part of that is dealing with sudden, large crimewaves. I've witnessed a couple myself, and they'e a lot of fun. However, unlike an inter-faction campaign, both sides understanding the exact nature of the event is neither necessary or even particularly desirable. City-based guard/criminal rp is a different kettle of fish, and I think you may be treating it like the Plaguelands event or something, where being totally open between sides is vital.

And do understand that this sort of discussion is healthy, and not about getting mad at each other. I just think your grasp on this situation might be slightly askew.

Julia wrote:I'm of course speaking of the weekly insults he throws to the Council as a whole.

To be fair, I assumed at this point throwing insults at the council was just obligitary for anybody not on it?

Chléirich/Gunnell/Graham wrote:

Julia wrote:I'm of course speaking of the weekly insults he throws to the Council as a whole.

To be fair, I assumed at this point throwing insults at the council was just obligitary for anybody not on it?

It does not exactly make us feel great for all our work.

Well maybe it is. Maybe I'm just not thick skinned enough to handle the insults.

Julia wrote:Bravo. You're definatly making yourself seem even more mature. Seriously, do prove me wrong. I do want to. I don't like feeling this shit as I do. During these two days since I found this out I've felt like shit because I KNEW this would happen. I would think it was unfair, I would voice my and MANY other peoples opinions and then everyone thinks I'm an idiot and instead of proving me otherwise and acting mature.. Well yeah.

But yeah, congratulation. You've successfully made one Councilor feel like shit OOC. Only the rest to go. But I'm sure your insulting and all that will sort that out soon enough.

Well, to be honest, it does seem like you're just swinging at shadows here. I don't understand about the forcing your rp on others thing either. Surely by that definition if someone doesn't contact you oocly saying before saying "hello" to your character then they're "forcing their rp on you"?

As the council thing, I don't want to start a flame war, but has it ever occured to you that possibly the council themselves have somehow made others dislike them oocly? People don't throw insults around for no reason, is what I'm saying.

It's a game Julia, please don't feel bad. I have no grief against you, I am also sorry, if you want, I will delete my posts. I have no intention making you feel bad because I -can- sound harsh with my words. It's just a game to me, but I love discussions and arguments, and I -do- get tired off all the Shield-hate that I have to defend against. So what? So we did a crime-spree? What do you care? It didn't involve you so why would you let it bother you?

Also, maybe if the council stopped throwing insults at the Shields all the time and trying to rule everyones RP, no-one would bother them. Also, I know of your hot-temper and some of the things you said OOCly, Julia, so I feel you're not being very fair.

Billiam / Ashla wrote:
1.) We left Stormwind for a short duration of time to have an expedition

Biggest reason:
To have some fun, different kind of RP with our guild. Being a guard in the city is fun, indeed. But it easily gets repetetive. Other guilds may do things that offer them a change from the everyday RP, why shouldn't we? It also makes sense IC that a soldier regiment has survivability training and similar to keep the soldiers in shape. Please do not punish us OOC for what we are IC! We deserve some fun too, don't we?

So far, so good.

Billiam / Ashla wrote:

What went wrong:
Maybe I should have contacted the council about this some time ahead and given them a heads up. I am sorry, I actually didn't think about that. And once I got into the planning and Mansfield and I started to talk it over OOC we got so excited that we wanted to go ASAP. It was an OOC mistake, maybe.

Precisely. The council was not informed ICly and that I think was the main reason for most of the unpleasant things that followed. Like Eloresh said, guard guilds do have rights, but the moment they accept those, they also accept the responsibilities that follow them. One of them being to inform the council about something major happening.

I want to stress something here. The council should not be informed because we want to control or restrict yours or anyone else's RP. The reason the council should be informed is to maintain the consistency ICly, as well as the order over Stormwind OOCly, that we try to maintain throughout the rest of the time.

With that said, I do think the council should have been informed, and this will become even more evident further down this post.

Billiam / Ashla wrote:
Second biggest reason, though not even a FIFTH the size of the first:
We often receive complaints IC and OOC on how we play guards. Most of those complaints, especially the IC ones, are that we are being too rough. We admit that we realised that other guilds would guard the city while we were away and that we thought that it could be a nice side-effect to show them what it is like to be in our shoes.

What went wrong:
Well, I can't really see that we did anything wrong here. Not having those feelings would be weird, wouldn't it?

What went wrong lies again in the same mistake: the council not being informed. How can other guilds fill in the gap efficiently without any notice? As far as the council and other guilds were concerned, the Shield just ditched the city and went off. Some even suggested they became deserters. So, this shows even clearer how things can get messed up when the IC aspect is neglected.

Billiam / Ashla wrote:

2.) We made a criminal alt guild.

Biggest reason:
The thought was actually pretty nice behind this. We thought that with the main guards out of town criminals would take their chance and dance on the table. We wanted to be a part of this as it sounded like fun. So we made an alt guild and an event to be criminals together with our friends in the guild and RP together with our friends in the main criminal guilds too, as we have good OOC relations with them.

What went wrong:
Well, obviously no one may tell anyone else that they may not roll alts or RP a certain kind of character.

I'll be honest here. This would have been an amazing event, if both sides were informed OOCly. The Shields sure have the right to roll criminal alts and work with others outlaws. But, when a massive assault against Stormwind is planned, you do inform the other side too, no? Just like you usually plan things with the criminals OOCly. Hostile RP demands both sides to be informed about it, be it an assault that may cost the IC death of a character or a larger scale RP event such as this one.

No OOC warning or notice was given. This came to stack on top of the absence of an IC notice, making people begin to wonder whether the Shields are doing this on purpose to upset people, both IC and OOC. Since the Shields decided to organize such an attack and refused to inform the already confused opposite side, an assumption was born: they are doing it to show to people how defenseless against criminals Stormwind is when they are gone. In other words, this event has one solemn reason and that is to glorify the Shields.

What followed was a massive clusterfuck. People did become upset OOCly, refusing to continue the already hastily planned guard situation, claiming that the Shields are metagaming, by rolling a criminal alt guild and not telling people about the imminent attack, and that they refuse to take part in something like that. That's why most of them were absent when this happened.

Now. Let's rewind. Let's assume the Shields would have informed the council ICly and in time, like let's say a week or two prior to their departure. The council would have organized replacements and no one would have accused the Shields Icly for simply ditching the city defenses.

Let's also assume you would have coordinated said criminal assault wave with the new guards. All of the people would have taken part, there would have been no drama or moans and everyone would have had a good time, instead of a thread with only a few claiming they did so.

Conclusion: mistakes were made, both IC and OOC. I suggest we learn from them and move on. I can also assure you that many know how it is to RP a guard now and that it's not always as fun as it may seem. I would also like for everyone to lay off with the insulting attitudes, since it will surely not solve anything. I hope this helped a bit in clarifying things.

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:Also, maybe if the council stopped throwing insults at the Shields all the time and trying to rule everyones RP, no-one would bother them.

I'm, er, pretty sure we're not doing that. But I also thought this was a thread made for civilised discussion; it was certainly Meralynn's intent. And call me blind but I'm not seeing much of that happening.

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:It's a game Julia, please don't feel bad. I have no grief against you, I am also sorry, if you want, I will delete my posts. I have no intention making you feel bad because I -can- sound harsh with my words. It's just a game to me, but I love discussions and arguments, and I -do- get tired off all the Shield-hate that I have to defend against. So what? So we did a crime-spree? What do you care? It didn't involve you so why would you let it bother you?

Also, maybe if the council stopped throwing insults at the Shields all the time and trying to rule everyones RP, no-one would bother them. Also, I know of your hot-temper and some of the things you said OOCly, Julia, so I feel you're not being very fair.

I'm sorry, but don't bust that 'it's a game' crap. Everyone gets emotionally invested in things, and we all know it. I think this is all just misinformation and pre-formed opinions. I think we should all just step back, take a breath and just get on with life. Forget this little discussion happened. I think people just assumed this event meant things it did not. I think it was mostly the lack of warning. But as I said. I think it's time to just move on.

I still reckon that a bit too much emphasis is being placed on the lack of warning thing.

And... sorry for being confused here, but WHY does anyone have to inform the council of anything? Why does the Stormwind Council have the right to decide anything at all regarding other people's RP on an ooc level? Who gave them it?

Conclusion: mistakes were made, both IC and OOC. I suggest we learn from them and move on. I can also assure you that many know how it is to RP a guard now and that it's not always as fun as it may seem. I would also like for everyone to lay off with the insulting attitudes, since it will surely not solve anything. I hope this helped a bit in clarifying things.

Quoted and signed.

This entire thing is a bit of a disappointing display, this server should be above that kind of stuff. Now, as I see things, this entire affair was an effort to tell people to show the Shields more respect. One done in a terribly bad way. It seems obvious to me that you would want to show others what it is like to be in your shoes. If you were honest about that, you would have focused your efforts upon your own event, let things run their course in Stormwind. This, as well all know, was not the case, you decided to encourage to criminals to run wild, as well as helping to make more trouble on your alts. That proves only one thing. You know that you are not irreplaceable. If you sincerely believed that, you would have let things run their course. Furthermore, you would have informed people way ahead of time so they could be prepared to handle things, as you are on a day to day basis. Someone must have had the foresight to realize this would not be the case. As a result, you only succeeded in proving that you are wrong, nice going. Moving on, it is a curious trait in many people that they refuse to realize they are wrong even if everyone are against them. Allow me to elaborate, you seem to want more respect from other guilds, to achieve that, you will have to give the same back. Cooperation is the key, if you want to coexist in harmony, you cannot just sit on your hill and expect everyone else to adjust to you, you have to make an effort. In the end, it all came down to me as an OOC inspired metagaming fest. It is fairly sad how people seem to care more about their personal prestige and comfort than making an effort to create more quality RP for the general population. This seems to be a tendency on the server as of late, and until recently I believed it was largely a horde phenomenon. Seems I was wrong.

Apologies in advance for seeming hostile and arrogant. Thank you for your time and hopefully this clarifies a thing or two for those with little knowledge on the matter.

Jazeel wrote:And... sorry for being confused here, but WHY does anyone have to inform the council of anything? Why does the Stormwind Council have the right to decide anything at all regarding other people's RP on an ooc level? Who gave them it?

If a guild comes to the council and asks ICly for guard rights, then they're asking to be ICly coordinated by the council, which involves the aforementioned IC rights and responsibilities. OOCly, guilds can do whatever they want, and indeed they don't -have- to apply for guard rights to play guards. The council is there to make everything smoother and more interesting, not to control anybody. As much as Rohwyn is totally the kind of character to run around beating people over the head with a nightstick!

Making some fairly huge assumptions there, Neth.

But carry on, nonetheless.

Mallea/Trollmeat wrote:Making some fairly huge assumptions there, Neth.

Please elaborate.

Netherian Helmsley wrote: It is fairly sad how people seem to care more about their personal prestige and comfort than making an effort to create more quality RP for the general population. This seems to be a tendency on the server as of late, and until recently I believed it was largely a horde phenomenon.

Uh

Uh

Um

I'm laughing so hard right now

Jazeel wrote:

Uh

Uh

Um

I'm laughing so hard right now

Sue me for being out of touch with things, I am speaking mostly from experience with the campaign not so long ago.

Well, sad to see how some insist on being nothing but children. I think I will leave it to what I already said and assume that people are either ignoring it on purpose or are simply looking for something to vent their frustration on for whatever reasons they may have. Kinda disappointing regardless :/

The council is there to make everything smoother and more interesting, not to control anybody.

I wonder how many times this has been established, repeated, explained and pointed out. Some patience you councilors got!

No one is even mildly affected by the council unless they decide to be a part of that community. It seems it's when they don't get the council's full support, the drama about "control" and "power" breaks lose

The whole point of not informing the council of our swift departure was to have them swallow their hatred against us. We were planning this event for ages and I personally went like, during half-way the planning. The event however was NOT to leave SW to their own devices, it was for our own fun, for our own training and to get some variation in our RP. It was planned LONG before the council started their spree!

"Hm. The council has been backtalking us and whining at us and calling us corrupt aswell as giving us shit all the time. So I say we don't announce this event to make sure they swallow their hatred and maybe give us a SHRED of respect for the roleplay we do, instead of judging us negatively every.. single.. time..". <-- IC. They gave us no OOC grief.

Now you know being a guard isn't easy. Now you know you have to be harsh and fast, now you know we don't have time for your nonstop hatred and calling us corrupt and all the procedures and rules you throw at us. Let us do our jobs. Respect us as the city guards and leave us alone for the rest. You wanted us gone, we left. Besides, this one event doesn't really change anything. It's one event and it's already over, it's not even actual anymore. It's a closed case. A solved issue. Something that provided RP to all of Stormwind and is now over, people had fun, no crime done.

You are, however, still left with the current state of guarding anyway, before we launched the event and from what I heard, it was quite disastrous already. People being mugged all over Cath square, ignoring the guards, disrespecting them, mocking them, people rather being released than making a fight.

This is not meant in ANY was a grief action against the council OOC but more of an IC response to the current state of things. It's completly IC, we've kept EVERYTHING completly IC. We did ALL our events IC, all our roleplay IC, all our plans IC and they all come from an IC response. We keep it in character fully. This OOC discussion I let myself get dragged into all too eagerly, and said some harsh personal opinions, was a mere response to other peoples' reactions.

For us it would have been best if it had just stayed, like everything we do and plan, IC. In character. Our motivations are in character, the reason we do things are in character, we do not bring OOC to our characters. There was no OOC hatred that lead to ANY action in-character.

You really need to start watching what you say. You're AGAIN judging a whole group of people for what a few do and/or think. And its insulting to those that frankly doesn't give a shit about what you do.