[RP-PvP] The Lion's Den 10th - 18th of May.

Terenus wrote:Plus, as I have said -before- but you seem incapable of reading

hen frankly you might as well go to Argent Dawn so you can start ERPingRPing whatever little retarded scenarios you want. It would suit you, most certainly.

It makes no fucking sense that any horde related organization would attack the kingdom of stormwind. Anyone with two brain cells can see that.

But ORB attacking the kingdom of Stormwind is retarded and just lore fuckery, and anyone who cannot see it as such really should just move to Argent Dawn where your blatant disregard of lore and logic will be appreciated.

And by the way, learn the definition of Ad Hominem. I insulted you, whilst addressing your argument, not Ad Hominem - stop bitching.

I can see what you mean. Rarg is clearly as bad as you in every aspect. Considering you seem to be judging everyone on not listening to what is being said. I hope you can sit back and not be a hypocrite yourself, and see that what you have been dropping within your perfectly reasonable criticism (No irony, some of your criticism is perfectly valid, and you've replaced it with genuine other options) Is wrong. Your insults throw out all validity to what you post.

And as for my original post. There is no doubt I dislike Burgen. But I don't "enjoy" complaining about him. I was pointing out the fact that he was throwing down criticism at an event and not just this one, with no constructive alternative to replace it. Instead just stupid images and a condescending tone. Unlike you, who while criticizing, are at least offering alternative.

Feel free to post back and tell me how wrong I am. And maybe insult me at the same time. But I think my point is pretty clear.

Neither hurt nor upset, just hoping that you'd condone yourself more responsibly and where have I asked you to quote. I had already adressed alot of the points that you brought up in the major post that I made, although I did not exactly quote them to you, as you say yourself, doing such would probaly be a bit too much.

As for being brutally honest, the behavior displayed is what I'd define as just being plain old onboxious. However, I am no forum-warrior, and have no desire to engage in long arguments over forums that will just be finger pointing.

If you wish to give constructive critism to the campaign etc. Im more than happy to listen.

Rargnasha wrote:If you wish to give constructive critism to the campaign etc. Im more than happy to listen.

Except, as Terenus pointed out already, constructive criticism was offered twice, to which your response was, and I quote, "feel free to read the post where I adress exactly why this campaign is possible", showing that by "constructive criticism" you mean "shut up I do what I want".

Or that I've already written my response to that earlier, which was my response to that, which doesn't seem like either of you are seem to be taking into account in any of your posts, which gives the strong impression that you likely havn't read it.

Anyway, this is starting to look more like trolling than actual discussion, so until either of you have something worthwhile to say and deliver it in a proper manner, I'll refrain from replying to either of you from here on. If you condone yourself properly, I think we'll be able to get along decently, which is something I wouldn't mind.

Anivitas wrote:

Terenus wrote:Plus, as I have said -before- but you seem incapable of reading

hen frankly you might as well go to Argent Dawn so you can start ERPingRPing whatever little retarded scenarios you want. It would suit you, most certainly.

It makes no fucking sense that any horde related organization would attack the kingdom of stormwind. Anyone with two brain cells can see that.

But ORB attacking the kingdom of Stormwind is retarded and just lore fuckery, and anyone who cannot see it as such really should just move to Argent Dawn where your blatant disregard of lore and logic will be appreciated.

And by the way, learn the definition of Ad Hominem. I insulted you, whilst addressing your argument, not Ad Hominem - stop bitching.

I can see what you mean. Rarg is clearly as bad as you in every aspect. Considering you seem to be judging everyone on not listening to what is being said. I hope you can sit back and not be a hypocrite yourself, and see that what you have been dropping within your perfectly reasonable criticism (No irony, some of your criticism is perfectly valid, and you've replaced it with genuine other options) Is wrong. Your insults throw out all validity to what you post.

And as for my original post. There is no doubt I dislike Burgen. But I don't "enjoy" complaining about him. I was pointing out the fact that he was throwing down criticism at an event and not just this one, with no constructive alternative to replace it. Instead just stupid images and a condescending tone. Unlike you, who while criticizing, are at least offering alternative.

Feel free to post back and tell me how wrong I am. And maybe insult me at the same time. But I think my point is pretty clear.

Two direct insults, aye. To one person, who has acted like a little child when the teacher they don't like walked into a class and of whom I disapprove of their habits of giving Pandaren oral. Not very hygenic in this day and age. Rest were something beautiful called emphasis of my opinion.
Plus, again, I have read everything that has been said, and as I said, just because I chose not to respond directly to it does not mean it is ignored. With regards to Thelos, we hold massively differing opinions on the matter, and that discussion would go in circles so much we'd need a new LHC. It may do you heed to follow your own words quite closely.

And to Rargnasha, obnoxious was not the intention, and if it was perceived as such then I am sorry for that, though the two insults towards Ixirar were most definitely intended and I do not think I shall apologize for those.

Alright, I hope that we can continue this discussion in a respectful manner. For now, Im going to see to some other work, but I'll be around later.
If you can write down the things where you see there being some holes, which either have or have not already been adressed, then you can either post it here or send it to me in a private message and we can talk about them once Im done with my other things.

I disapprove of their habits of giving Pandaren oral.

Could you guys get over this? If you didn't want to watch my character kissing (NOT GIVING ORAL), then perhaps don't follow us to the conveniently out of place location and spy?

Terenus, maybe you should go and chill out elsewhere for a little while. You're being a bitch.


I think this whole thing was blown out of proportion. Rarg just needs to say it was a voluntary/small force - which he did in his later explanation.

Vaell wrote:Terenus, maybe you should go and chill out elsewhere for a little while. You're being a bitch.


I think this whole thing was blown out of proportion. Rarg just needs to say it was a voluntary/small force - which he did in his later explanation.

Ooh, my turn for image macros, how exciting!
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:

I disapprove of their habits of giving Pandaren oral.

Could you guys get over this? If you didn't want to watch my character kissing (NOT GIVING ORAL), then perhaps don't follow us to the conveniently out of place location and spy?

As an aside, whatever happened in that exchange has exactly what to do with this discussion? Making it clear, I only support the valid arguments Terenus made regarding the flimsy campaign, I don't think those kinds of snipes have any place here and, quite rightly, they only do a disservice to the points he tries to argue.

The horde is not fighting on the fucking behalf of Garrosh or Vol'Jin, its guilds creating events.
Either host your own events that suit your liking an get the community together or shut the fuck up/contribute

You are all some self destructive little shits and your gif/picture spam is not at all entertaining, we get it you've visitted 4chan and or ebaums.

Spoiler:

I sugest blueshielding be disallowed for all participants!

And people to gear up! Dun be lazy!

siegmund wrote:I sugest blueshielding be disallowed for all participants!

And people to gear up! Dun be lazy!

This ^

Terenus wrote:
And it isn't about us suffering. I'll fight anyway because fuck it, I enjoy WPVP. The problem is, this campaign goes against -everything- established by the lore as the situation the Horde and Alliance are in. If I'm not wrong, you'll find that Blizzard are planning to have the Horde recover because of Draenor next expansion. Maybe when WoD is out, a situation as moronic as attacking the lands right next to the Alliance capital - which probably has enough power left on it's own to crush the horde - would be feasible.
Before that, all it is is lore fucking.

look mom, I know how to internet! my opinion on things don't actually matter, i'm just fulminating air! considering I'll show up and have fun with everyone else regardless! I'll just go ahead and call people hypocrites in a following post, and calling people retarded and telling them to fuck of to another server for thinking this lorelol is okay. but i'm still going to partake in RPpvp, even though the rp part is retarded! Oh man, I'm on a roll here.

But, it is good that you fully and intentionally insult people, because you dislike them, while criticising people for doing the same too! You´re learning man.

I guess that's what we call constructive criticism these days!

I guess to top this off, I need an image macro?

Right here's one:

Spoiler:

Thank you for teaching me how to be better at this.

Attacking Westfall is indeed dumb for the many reasons listed by users in this thread (and possibly more); the proximity to Stormwind and the lack of actual resources to plunder being the two most important ones.

However, there's no reason the Horde organisers shouldn't be doing dumb things. Perhaps the masterminds behind this particular attack are being foolish IC and picked the worst possible place to launch their raids. People make mistakes. Big mistakes. Stupid mistakes. The leaders of the respective warbands spearheading this attack don't necessarily need to have good intel on the situation, either. They might think that Westfall is the Land of Plenty, with rivers of honey and trees that bear chickenlegs in spring. They might think the truce is for wimps and decide to give Vol'jin the middle-finger and just go raid some villages while he's looking the other way. We're talking about the HORDE here, people!

How about we punish them for their callous recklessness by kicking their butts? The guards aren't going to do it for us, so we might as well get suited up to do it ourselves. Rather than to declare a move like this to be lorelol and stupid, isn't it much more fun to show just how stupid it really is by having it blown up in their faces?

Thelos wrote:Attacking Westfall is indeed dumb for the many reasons listed by users in this thread (and possibly more); the proximity to Stormwind and the lack of actual resources to plunder being the two most important ones.

However, there's no reason the Horde organisers shouldn't be doing dumb things. Perhaps the masterminds behind this particular attack are being foolish IC and picked the worst possible place to launch their raids. People make mistakes. Big mistakes. Stupid mistakes. The leaders of the respective warbands spearheading this attack don't necessarily need to have good intel on the situation, either. They might think that Westfall is the Land of Plenty, with rivers of honey and trees that bear chickenlegs in spring. They might think the truce is for wimps and decide to give Vol'jin the middle-finger and just go raid some villages while he's looking the other way. We're talking about the HORDE here, people!

How about we punish them for their callous recklessness by kicking their butts? The guards aren't going to do it for us, so we might as well get suited up to do it ourselves. Rather than to declare a move like this to be lorelol and stupid, isn't it much more fun to show just how stupid it really is by having it blown up in their faces?

Biggest problem with this.

Alliance suck at PVP.

That's a big problem, yes. You'll have to rely on the good graces of the Horde players to respect the lore enough to allow themselves to be driven out by the invisible masses of NPCs once they've had my fun.

This really leads me back to my original point. Players fight players and NPCs fight NPCs. You can't appeal to NPCs armies to deny players of the other faction access to, say, Westfall, because there's nothing stopping them from just going there with their characters.

Player characters are vastly more powerful than normal soldiers in the army by default; they mostly mow whole platoons of them down with little effort in the actual game. It usually takes heroes to defeat heroes; it's been like this since the Illiad, in which characters like Hector are basically invicible until somebody like Achilles arises to confront them. Player characters are the heroes of the World of Warcraft universe: the Alliance ought to be delivering the Achilesses to stop the Hectors of the Horde.

I do realise, however, that there are many who don't subsribe to this school of thought, and prefer for their characters to be closer to normal soldiers in strength. I personally don't really like this way of thinking about role-play, since it creates a huge discrepancy between the 'normal' gaming experience and your role-playing, in which your relatively meek role-playing character suddenly becomes close to a demi-god whenever he enters combat.

If you are subscribing to this school of thought though, I can see more clearly why you would find a rag-tag warband invading Westfall to be lorelol; after all, normal soldiers wouldn't be able to pull something like that off, they'd be crushed before they would be able to touch the coast. But player characters are not normal soldiers. They're heroes. At least from my perspective, and that of many others.

The invading force can probably make perfect sense out of it in their narratives, too. A small force, sneaking in, perhaps trough magic, doing some damage before the big and slow Alliance warmachine can react, and then retreating before things get too hot. It doesn't have to be lorelol; it likely won't be, as long as everyone trusts one another to be reasonable.

In the end I suppose it's a matter of trust. If you want to play together, you'll just have to have faith that the other party will respect the lore, even when it seems, from your current perspective, that they might not.

Well, if we can assume that the fleet of Stormwind is elsewhere at the moment, we could say our characters on the Alliance side mind you are just there to hold them back while reinforcements arrive. Makes sense both ways.

lets takeaway Horde fleet = replace with hastily gathered coastal skiffs.
Base horde at Grom gol with three routes north, and let the fun begin.
I for one would Sacrifice a small bit or lore for some nights of RPPVP fun.
You have my blade Bloodmark - lets go Viking and raid for mats.

please be sure to Contact me if the Horde have plans to move against the Academy of Deadwind, would be an awesome siege, though it would really require a somewhat more complicated plan on how to play through such an assault, as it involves Instances and the like, so, yeah, starve us out!

Terenus wrote:

Thelos wrote:Attacking Westfall is indeed dumb for the many reasons listed by users in this thread (and possibly more); the proximity to Stormwind and the lack of actual resources to plunder being the two most important ones.

However, there's no reason the Horde organisers shouldn't be doing dumb things. Perhaps the masterminds behind this particular attack are being foolish IC and picked the worst possible place to launch their raids. People make mistakes. Big mistakes. Stupid mistakes. The leaders of the respective warbands spearheading this attack don't necessarily need to have good intel on the situation, either. They might think that Westfall is the Land of Plenty, with rivers of honey and trees that bear chickenlegs in spring. They might think the truce is for wimps and decide to give Vol'jin the middle-finger and just go raid some villages while he's looking the other way. We're talking about the HORDE here, people!

How about we punish them for their callous recklessness by kicking their butts? The guards aren't going to do it for us, so we might as well get suited up to do it ourselves. Rather than to declare a move like this to be lorelol and stupid, isn't it much more fun to show just how stupid it really is by having it blown up in their faces?

Biggest problem with this.

Alliance suck at PVP.

Actually, the majority of the legitimately skilled PVPers are alliance. As said in the OP, the fights are actually a whole lot more balanced when you drop the numbers down to small scale skirmishes. I think, quite simply, the horde has better teamwork in large numbers. I played an ally char in the last campaign, and I can tell you the only fights I saw the Horde winning were the large scale ones. They weren't a problem in 3-10man fights.

And since this campaign will have more focus on the small skirmishes than the previous ones, I'm gonna go ahead and say: It'll probably work itself out to provide for a much more accomodating experience for what is traditionally the underdog faction in these events.

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:

Terenus wrote:

Thelos wrote:Attacking Westfall is indeed dumb for the many reasons listed by users in this thread (and possibly more); the proximity to Stormwind and the lack of actual resources to plunder being the two most important ones.

However, there's no reason the Horde organisers shouldn't be doing dumb things. Perhaps the masterminds behind this particular attack are being foolish IC and picked the worst possible place to launch their raids. People make mistakes. Big mistakes. Stupid mistakes. The leaders of the respective warbands spearheading this attack don't necessarily need to have good intel on the situation, either. They might think that Westfall is the Land of Plenty, with rivers of honey and trees that bear chickenlegs in spring. They might think the truce is for wimps and decide to give Vol'jin the middle-finger and just go raid some villages while he's looking the other way. We're talking about the HORDE here, people!

How about we punish them for their callous recklessness by kicking their butts? The guards aren't going to do it for us, so we might as well get suited up to do it ourselves. Rather than to declare a move like this to be lorelol and stupid, isn't it much more fun to show just how stupid it really is by having it blown up in their faces?

Biggest problem with this.

Alliance suck at PVP.

Actually, the majority of the legitimately skilled PVPers are alliance. As said in the OP, the fights are actually a whole lot more balanced when you drop the numbers down to small scale skirmishes. I think, quite simply, the horde has better teamwork in large numbers. I played an ally char in the last campaign, and I can tell you the only fights I saw the Horde winning were the large scale ones. They weren't a problem in 3-10man fights.

And since this campaign will have more focus on the small skirmishes than the previous ones, I'm gonna go ahead and say: It'll probably work itself out to provide for a much more accomodating experience for what is traditionally the underdog faction in these events.

This. In my experience of the RPPVP events, the Horde has strength in numbers but flops in the small skirmishes (Wetlands campaign skirmishes, anyone?). Regardless, this should be heaps of fun. The small skirmishes are always the better ones.

Personally, I think, and I believe its also part of the motivation for the location choice, is that holding campaigns in various locations is what's fun. We don't want to fight in hillsbrad, the barrens or ashenvale, arathi every-time. and as such using location where we haven't had campaigns in a long long time (like since vanilla), at stormwinds doorstep is a nice change of pace.

conveying the idea that RP-PVP happens everywhere on this server, is why I love DB. I love W-PvP, and each new zone we fight in gives new choke points, new terrain pieces that are great grounds for battle and rp.

Sure, we can debate about the merits of lore adherence, and sense and realism, and what does and what does not fit into lore, but if we would honestly inspect that, we'd find that there's lorelol, and cannon breach and shit that doesn't make sense, in every guild and the majority of story-lines. And ultimately, we defer to the two rules that actually matter in RP; Fun and Rule of Cool. Most of us, or better yet, all of us, hope to ground our RP in lore, and we should and we do, but ultimately when RP gets halted because invisible npcs exist, we all ultimately choose to ignore them, if the above two rules are met. The problem of these arguments, ultimately stems from people that are not part that specific RP and therefor don't experience the two rules, that these silly debates pop up, and we get these debates, which are frankly held on the emotional level of a toddler who doesn't get the candy from dad(I'm also part of this mind, because I find it fun).

But even then with all this talk about lorelol. We cannot change the lore no matter how we do, because we cannot change the status quo of the zones. we cannot convert undercity in a human city until blizzard makes it happen, we cannot make orcs take control of westfall until blizzard comes along and does it. And as such the status quo that's set-up in the lore will always reassert itself once the campaign is done, and as such it makes perfect sense that the horde cannot win and therefor will not win. Is that a reason to not do it then? Of course not, because fun and the rule of cool.

And ultimately this leaves us with one choice to make. We join the campaign and we have fun in it, and we make it fun, and we ground it in as much lore and thematic sense as possible. Or we just don't participate.

Completely disagreeing with everything but still joining is kinda silly if you ask me, but even then if you do decide to join because pvp is fun, at least have the decency to not complain.

For me, its quite simple, lets spill the horde blood that's foolish enough to enter our domain.

Excellent post, doctor Amaryl.

I'm not sure why I called you a doctor.

You're not a doctor, are you? Maybe you ought to be.