[RP-PvP] The Lion's Den 10th - 18th of May.

Terenus wrote:Why in god's name would Vol'jin ever condone something like this?

Who says he would have to? Use your imagination.

There's just been an internal conflict, there's always room for explaining dissident groups. Play an alter ego of your character if you like, not your usual character fighting but somebody else (your Tauren is some crazy grimtotem or whatever), or just a what if in a parallel universe you can forget about once the campaign is over.

Should RPers stop ALL kinds of PvP in 5.4+ just because there's supposedly a truce? How does a truce apply to the whole horde simultaneously anyway? Maybe the events are happening just as Hellscream is going down, and the campaign ends with the arrival of the news.

On the other hand, aren't there plenty of factions tolerated by the horde but not exactly part of it? What about neutral factions of "horde races?" What if there's a revolt? It might be people from the outer areas of the Kingdom don't like how the situation is handled (I'm preeetty sure at Westfall and Redridge they're a bit pissed at the king these days). Small Horde groups might fund or even support that revolt (wouldn't be the first time something like that happens. Remember Alterac?). I'm sure quite a few criminal guilds (both Alliance and Horde) would enjoy the chaos to their benefit.

Small-group PvP really encourages playing pillage, covert ops, local disputes.. Again, use your imagination. Or maybe it's just an excuse for organized WPvP. If you don't like it and want to PvP just flex your RP muscle to find a better story and share it (you can't come up with ONE reason to fight??). You don't need to explain everybody's presence there, just your own. And if you don't like the stories and don't want to PvP there's no problem, so move on

I like the idea for the scenario. I'm in.

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:If you three think spamming sarcy image macros on the thread constitutes "Criticism", you might just be the most daft adults I've ever met.

Also, this should be REALLY OLD NEWS, that we're still gonna PVP even if Vol'jin agreed to a truce a fair few months ago. This doesn't "contradict lore" as much as it simply implies that the Horde rebuilt quickly and the truce expired.

I'll humor you guys, though. How long do you think we should but a blanket ban on all WPVP just so you guys can feel that Vol'jin's truce has been honored? And furthermore: WPVP events have ALWAYS been the defining thing about Defias Brotherhood. It's the one thing that we do better than all other realms. Why would we stop arranging those just because Varian and Vol'jin made a truce in a raid instance released more than half a year ago?

As for the naval superiority: I believe Rarg is citing the advantageous position that the horde, according to server lore, is in after winning Tol Barad, Arathi AND the northrend campaign. After those 3 campaigns, it was agreed that the next one would be the horde attacking the alliance closer to home.

And honestly, even if you interpret the truce as requiring absolutely no RP PVP untill WOD releases, how do you -REALLY- suffer from other people participating in this?


inb4 more image macros.

There is a difference between having RP-PVP events that are more like skirmishes for resources and land between two factions and -directly attacking the kingdom of Stormwind-. Plus, as I have said -before- but you seem incapable of reading, the horde are very much weakened, and the Alliance, in Metzen's own words, are the sole remaining super power. There is no way in hell that three small campaigns by the horde on this server would change that situation. Server lore is not more important than the lore of the game itself, and if you disagree with that, then frankly you might as well go to Argent Dawn so you can start ERPingRPing whatever little retarded scenarios you want. It would suit you, most certainly.

And it isn't about us suffering. I'll fight anyway because fuck it, I enjoy WPVP. The problem is, this campaign goes against -everything- established by the lore as the situation the Horde and Alliance are in. If I'm not wrong, you'll find that Blizzard are planning to have the Horde recover because of Draenor next expansion. Maybe when WoD is out, a situation as moronic as attacking the lands right next to the Alliance capital - which probably has enough power left on it's own to crush the horde - would be feasible.
Before that, all it is is lore fucking.


Also, Ixirar. Maybe if you actually read my previous posts you'd understand why this makes no fucking sense at all. Or, you could read Burgen's, you've obviously been doing that, but again, like Anivitas, you seem to enjoy bitching about him more than you both claim he does about other things.

Kyph wrote:

Terenus wrote:Why in god's name would Vol'jin ever condone something like this?

Who says he would have to? Use your imagination.

There's just been an internal conflict, there's always room for explaining dissident groups. Play an alter ego of your character if you like, not your usual character fighting but somebody else (your Tauren is some crazy grimtotem or whatever), or just a what if in a parallel universe you can forget about once the campaign is over.

Should RPers stop ALL kinds of PvP in 5.4+ just because there's supposedly a truce? How does a truce apply to the whole horde simultaneously anyway? Maybe the events are happening just as Hellscream is going down, and the campaign ends with the arrival of the news.

On the other hand, aren't there plenty of factions tolerated by the horde but not exactly part of it? What about neutral factions of "horde races?" What if there's a revolt? It might be people from the outer areas of the Kingdom don't like how the situation is handled (I'm preeetty sure at Westfall and Redridge they're a bit pissed at the king these days). Small Horde groups might fund or even support that revolt (wouldn't be the first time something like that happens. Remember Alterac?). I'm sure quite a few criminal guilds (both Alliance and Horde) would enjoy the chaos to their benefit.

Small-group PvP really encourages playing pillage, covert ops, local disputes.. Again, use your imagination. Or maybe it's just an excuse for organized WPvP. If you don't like it and want to PvP just find a better story and share it. You don't need to explain everybody's presence there, just your own. And if you don't like the stories and don't want to PvP there's no problem, so move on

I like the idea for the scenario. I'm in.

Also, because one: He's warchief of the horde.

Two, this isn't the horde RPing as crazy unassociated to the horde factions. Again, look above, I never said "STOP THE RPPVP". It makes no fucking sense that any horde related organization would attack the kingdom of stormwind. Anyone with two brain cells can see that. It -would not happen-. Period. I enjoy PVP a ton, and I tend to pvp more than RP. I'm all for an RP PVP scenario. But ORB attacking the kingdom of Stormwind is retarded and just lore fuckery, and anyone who cannot see it as such really should just move to Argent Dawn where your blatant disregard of lore and logic will be appreciated.

I suggested a place like STV be better, or even the Wetlands. It removes a lot of prevailent issues such as blue shielding, and -actually makes some fucking sense-.

The Band of the Brave will valorously defend their home turf.

Bring it, orcses!

I'll ask around in my guild who'd be up for battle-leading.
I volunteer myself, but I'm not very good at it.

To all the merry men:
This is not the horde invading Stormwind. This is a bunch of orcs raiding some Alliance lands. That doesn't have to be a big deal, nor have anything to do with Vol'jin.

Also, because one: He's warchief of the horde.

Two, this isn't the horde RPing as crazy unassociated to the horde factions. Again, look above, I never said "STOP THE RPPVP". It makes no fucking sense that any horde related organization would attack the kingdom of stormwind. Anyone with two brain cells can see that. It -would not happen-. Period. I enjoy PVP a ton, and I tend to pvp more than RP. I'm all for an RP PVP scenario. But ORB attacking the kingdom of Stormwind is retarded and just lore fuckery, and anyone who cannot see it as such really should just move to Argent Dawn where your blatant disregard of lore and logic will be appreciated.

I suggested a place like STV be better, or even the Wetlands. It removes a lot of prevailent issues such as blue shielding, and -actually makes some fucking sense-

Please note I wasn't replying to your whole posts or anybody else's in particular for that matter, just pointing out that "but Vol'jin.." was not a valid excuse not to play in those areas (even if, logically, it prevents any large scale operation).

Like I said this doesn't have to be about large battles (large battles are being RP-PVPed by groups of a few dozen soldiers anyway, which is ridiculous!) but small operations. I agree that the original proposal goes too far, but some people are saying "IT'S ALL WRONG" instead of "what if instead we.." trying to shape the concept with "if we wanted to RP-PVP there, what could we do?".

They're on a pillaging run. They're not aiming to sack Stormwind or anything. They're landing in alliance lands, and then they're attempting to steal whatever they can before being pushed out.

The horde being pushed out is even stated in the OP as the INEVITABLE OUTCOME no matter what.

I will make a simple argument in defense of this event:

This is only really a problem if you accept that players control and influence anything bigger than their character and those of others. Players have full sovereignity over their own characters, don't they? Well, let's just focus on those player characters, then. No navies, no armies, no Vol'jins, no Varians, not even a 'Horde' or an 'Alliance' as such; no anything besides the actual characters being controlled by actual players. Shouldn't those characters be able to go on a pillaging spree, should their players want them to do so? And should other players not want to prevent those other players from pillaging lands their characters care about?

This is only really a problem if you make it bigger than it actually is. If you stick to what's actually happening on the screen, I don't think it contradicts any logic or common sense. Granted, the Horde might weakened and the Alliance might be dominant, but that doesn't mean the players are; the Orcs of the Red Blade don't seem very weakened; the Shatterskull Marauders don't seem very weakened; individual players within the Horde faction don't seem particularily weakened. Taken on their own, they seem perfectly capable of some small-scale skirmishes. "The Horde" might not be able to pierce into Redridge, but a ragtag bunch of some three dozen Orcs, Forsaken, Tauren, Goblins, Blood Elfs and Trolls just might; unless, that is, they are stopped by another ragtag bunch of Alliance characters.

A for Vol'jin and the breadth of the Horde condemning this particular skirmish, if particular characters think that this is the case, let them say so. It only serves to create more role-play. Strangling this initiative in the crib, however, does not.

Thelos wrote:Well, let's just focus on those player characters, then. No navies, no armies, no Vol'jins, no Varians, not even a 'Horde' or an 'Alliance' as such; no anything besides the actual characters being controlled by actual players. Shouldn't those characters be able to go on a pillaging spree, should their players want them to do so? And should other players not want to prevent those other players from pillaging lands their characters care about?

Thats what i've been thinking. It's pillaging trip lead by one tribe chieftain. No big superpower armies with them, just little part of the horde is involved (that happen to be our chars). We tell Vol'jin that we bring some resources to Orgi and he will be like "Oki mon, i'll be focusing on da politics then. Lots of stuff to do as warchief!".

Terenus wrote:
Plus, what bloody resources are in westfall? Stone and dirt? It's poor, anyone who has even walked through that zone knows it. There is no strategic advantage to be gained through resources, and it's extremely open to an attack from multiple sides.

Easy first target for the horde? Winning gets moral go high. I also believe that after Cataclysm they would have managed to grow some grain and have atleast some food stored around.

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:
As for the naval superiority: I believe Rarg is citing the advantageous position that the horde, according to server lore, is in after winning Tol Barad, Arathi AND the northrend campaign. After those 3 campaigns, it was agreed that the next one would be the horde attacking the alliance closer to home.

Lets not forget server lore. It makes playing on DB so special :3

Terenus wrote:frankly you might as well go to Argent Dawn so you can start ERPingRPing whatever little retarded scenarios you want. It would suit you, most certainly.

While you make some good points, I feel they are rendered moot by this wholly needless jab. Let's stick to the discussion at hand, k?

Thelos wrote:I will make a simple argument in defense of this event:

This is only really a problem if you accept that players control and influence anything bigger than their character and those of others. Players have full sovereignity over their own characters, don't they? Well, let's just focus on those player characters, then. No navies, no armies, no Vol'jins, no Varians, not even a 'Horde' or an 'Alliance' as such; no anything besides the actual characters being controlled by actual players. Shouldn't those characters be able to go on a pillaging spree, should their players want them to do so? And should other players not want to prevent those other players from pillaging lands their characters care about?

This is only really a problem if you make it bigger than it actually is. If you stick to what's actually happening on the screen, I don't think it contradicts any logic or common sense. Granted, the Horde might weakened and the Alliance might be dominant, but that doesn't mean the players are; the Orcs of the Red Blade don't seem very weakened; the Shatterskull Marauders don't seem very weakened; individual players within the Horde faction don't seem particularily weakened. Taken on their own, they seem perfectly capable of some small-scale skirmishes. "The Horde" might not be able to pierce into Redridge, but a ragtag bunch of some three dozen Orcs, Forsaken, Tauren, Goblins, Blood Elfs and Trolls just might; unless, that is, they are stopped by another ragtag bunch of Alliance characters.

A for Vol'jin and the breadth of the Horde condemning this particular skirmish, if particular characters think that this is the case, let them say so. It only serves to create more role-play. Strangling this initiative in the crib, however, does not.

While I predict that not everyone can agree with the first part, you're definitely right as far as a small rag tag team goes.

All you naysayers, consider it to be what could be considered in modern times an attack by a separatist group, such as the violence in Eastern Ukraine right now. Russia isn't having it's hands slapped away from the candy jar because the causes of this bloody unrest are certainly pro-Russian, but are equally as certainly not acting on their direct behalf, which could be very similar to this event. While the Horde itself is reeling from the Siege, that doesn't mean certain groups that support but not directly represent it can't go pillaging into Alliance lands.

'Support but not directly represent' is a nice way of putting it. I'll subscribe to that!

Terenus wrote:and if you disagree with that, then frankly you might as well go to Argent Dawn so you can start ERPingRPing whatever little retarded scenarios you want. It would suit you, most certainly.

Look Mom! I know how to internet! If you disagree with my opinion, fuck off with an ad hominem.

in before the insult driven rebuttal.

I long for the day where I can once again exist on Defias without people from DOL constantly reminding me of that one day where my elf kissed a pandaren.

Thelos... I could marry your forum posts.

Westfall is poor? Yeah. Still is the Alliance's only decent sized farmlands.

The civilians in the zone are poor (animals driving them from some of their fields, lack of military presence costing them even more), but the zone isn't. There is food to be harvested, gnolls/murlocs to kill for weapons/tents, shredders to salvage for engineering spare parts, defias tunnels to pillage for weapons, blackpowder, cannonballs etc and a gaping hole of magic to plunder for arcane power. The inhabitants of the zone just don't have the power at hand to claim those resources.

Westfall isn't elwynn. But by lore, it has a very weakened alliance presence, as the only real garrison in the zone was destroyed by the defias uprising. It's not rich, but the zone in itself isn't poor. It's perfect for a daring horde warband to raid, as they can overcome the risks the farmers couldn't, the Alliance have no forces of adequate size nearby, they have an alternate escape route through duskwood towards Booty Bay.

An attack on Westfall makes very much sense to me, is what I'm saying.

I compliment Rarg for his initiative!

My guild could not get involved In-Character, seeing as this is an act of aggression(?). But, if people are complaining about blue-shields and "lore," why not base the event in a contested territory like Ashenvale?

The Horde and Alliance were not at full-scale war back in vanilla or Burning Crusade (that was never what Thrall wanted), but were still having at each other in Warsong Gulch, Arathi Highlands and Alterac Valley.

Maybe pick a contested territory that has objectives for both sides and then there is a reason to "fight" over resources but it's not a full-on outbreak of war. Just two super-powers throwing their weight around to maintain the upperhand.

JUST MY TWO CENTS. Not criticising at all, Rarg! <3

Reading through this, it looks to me the one on the side of not liking this points out that the Horde as a whole wouldn't do this. The ones on the side of liking it saying it isn't the Horde, but individual groups from the Horde. So basically guys, you're saying the same thing. Perhaps it is as simple as changing the first post to make sure people understand it is small groups -from- the Horde, and not the entire Horde on Vol'jins command?

Cathee/Grimkel wrote:Reading through this, it looks to me the one on the side of not liking this points out that the Horde as a whole wouldn't do this. The ones on the side of liking it saying it isn't the Horde, but individual groups from the Horde. So basically guys, you're saying the same thing. Perhaps it is as simple as changing the first post to make sure people understand it is small groups -from- the Horde, and not the entire Horde on Vol'jins command?

Critical post!

It's super reasonable!

This should help alleviate the worries people have about this lorewise. If some players still consider it to be unfitting for their role-play or otherwise in violation of the (server)lore, they can just ignore it and continue their own plots without bothering with this.

I look forward to bashing some skulls, even though I haven't yet decided what faction I will be fighting for!

New argument: Westfall isn't alliance controlled.
It's just not the Horde that challenges the alliance for it usually. By the end of the Westfall questlines, the Alliance has lost all control of it. By the end of the deadmines, the defias has too. Westfall is ruled by gnolls if anything.

Cathee/Grimkel wrote:Reading through this, it looks to me the one on the side of not liking this points out that the Horde as a whole wouldn't do this. The ones on the side of liking it saying it isn't the Horde, but individual groups from the Horde. So basically guys, you're saying the same thing. Perhaps it is as simple as changing the first post to make sure people understand it is small groups -from- the Horde, and not the entire Horde on Vol'jins command?

Solid post, I hope all the naysayers get around to reading it. Though a relative newbie at Defias, the strong presence of the server lore here has left a meaningful impact on me, and I feel that this event would be a lovely little addition to that strong tradition without even pushing the boundaries on server lore vs Blizzard lore.

It seems pretty interesting. The Horde is going for the poorest! We better show 'em we arent to be messed with! To arms!

Thanks to the people that actually stuck up for the event.

GL Rarg. Hope it all goes well.

I like RP PvP and campaigns. My only bit of chritizism is just the fact of the Horde attacking Westfall for rescourses, as its a land who has nothing to offer. No food, no indestry, no natural rescourses.

ALSO: For Alliance players its very phased which, OOCly, will couse troubles.

My only bit of chritizism is just the fact of the Horde attacking Westfall for rescourses, as its a land who has nothing to offer. No food, no indestry, no natural rescourses.

I (partially) disagree. It has resources, just not being exploited properly because of the chaotic situation. Besides, when a disaster hits there's pillaging regardless because there's always something worth stealing somewhere! Think of Hurricane Katrina; it hit the poorest areas pretty hard, and crime went through the roof.

ALSO: For Alliance players its very phased which, OOCly, will couse troubles.

Maybe this isn't such a big problem. As far as I know it should affect the keep and Moonbrook, but not the Deadmines I believe. Maybe someone should experiment a bit with a cross-faction expedition. I see potential in Westfall. Indeed Horde presence wouldn't necessarily mean attacking but rather seizing resources that don't belong to either faction. Besides the keep being on fire (which I suppose doesn't matter because of phasing), the gnoll/murloc areas are free for all so to speak. Mortwake's tower is "neutral". Deadmines, even if in Alliance territory, is definitely out of Alliance control, full of hobos, outlaws.. and still of strategic value (I would love to try some small scale PvP "inside").

Elwynn... that'd push it too far, but Redridge has a lot of truly contested areas with heavy orc presence and very weak Alliance forces. The downside is again phasing. I'm not 100% sure which parts are phased but there's phasing for sure.

STV might not be such a bad idea after all!

Now that I have a little more time and the image macros have crawled back into the poophole of the internet, I'll try to clarify a few things. Do note that this is all Rarg's idea, so maybe I've been understanding or seeing a few things wrong.

First of all, the "Horde's increasing naval power"-thing, which some people have rightly criticized. Once again, do note that I can't really speak for Rarg, though I do believe that with this bit of sentence, he implied the current Tol Barad situation which, as far as I understand, the Horde has won over from the last RP-PvP campaign in DB's server lore. Though "increasing naval power" might be a bit of an overwhelming way to put it, people have already stated the crucial point of the server having its own guilds and lore that stands independently from the actual canon, in this case TB being under Horde control and being used as a staging point for a naval attack on Westfall.

Which brings me to the second point. People seem very focused on the Westfall part, whereas I'm pretty sure Rarg has stated more than several areas to be of importance to this campaign. Westfall is where the landfall will be made with the aforementioned "naval force", and used as a staging ground to launch attacks further inland (and thus more resourceful locations) from there. The focus most certainly doesn't lie on Westfall, regardless of how rich or poor the region is.

Finally, the subject I already lightly touched upon, being the server lore vs. canon. DB has a certain reputation when it comes to organizing large-scale RP-PvP campaigns, and this is no exception. There have been many so-called truces throughout the lore, but they've always been broken by both the Horde as well as Alliance, in both the server lore as well as canon. Even so, these attacks are more likely a guerrilla-like series of events considering the fact that Rarg seems to want to focus on smaller skirmishes between fairly small-sized groups of players (once again, might be a misinterpretation on my end, but it seems to me that way). So you won't be seeing any (or at least few) large-scale fights that would be representative of a real, all-out Horde vs. Alliance battle. These are small groups of warbands duking it out against one another, and by no means a serious threat to the walls of Stormwind. Yes, it may be out of style and even a bad idea to attack now that the Horde itself is weakened, though I do believe the reason for the attack is to pillage for resources so that the Horde might in fact recover more quickly than without such risky undertakings. Even if some people, both Horde and especially Alliance, might be against such an act (heck, even my own character is actually against the campaign, but that won't stop others from making the attempt).

Kozgugore Feraleye wrote:The reason for the attack is to pillage for resources so that the Horde might in fact recover more quickly than without such risky undertakings.

Which is a motive that strikes me as delightfully [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].

Hory sheet, dat interface nostalgia. That's a keeper for my UI.

A bit dickish with the pictures and demeaning tone for someone trying to create a PvP campaign, Disciples.


Rarg, all you have to do is alter the original post with "A small naval force carrying the banner of the Horde." and you could just then say it's your people's resources and volunteers aboard. There's no official peace atm, but i'd imagine a full scale attack would piss Vol'jin off and we can't really play with the consiquences of that.