Re: Magical Laws In association with the Stormwind laws.

by **Norrian/Chezz** Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:30 pm

Why not? It will give some decent RP.

by **Remai D'Waltir** Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:16 pm

siegmund wrote:
So this can be counted as a Giant Loophole. It's relatively close to SW and no one will "wander" randomly while you train/learn/use dark spells

Laws are not just for Stormwind, it's the entire kingdom. Even if there isn't any influence the laws still stand. Just no one will be around to stop you. It's like if you were in a dark alley in Stormwind you could break the law.

by **siegmund** Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:32 am

Remai D'Waltir wrote:
siegmund wrote:
So this can be counted as a Giant Loophole. It's relatively close to SW and no one will "wander" randomly while you train/learn/use dark spells

Laws are not just for Stormwind, it's the entire kingdom. Even if there isn't any influence the laws still stand. Just no one will be around to stop you. It's like if you were in a dark alley in Stormwind you could break the law.

Magical Laws In association with the Stormwind laws. - Page 2 Close+enough+meme

P.S. Yes you can break the law in a Dark alley yet someone will just /y

by **Skarain** Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:17 am

siegmund wrote:P.S. Yes you can break the law in a Dark alley yet someone will just /y

Yes, it is problematic. Solution (as always) is..... Magic!

Silence
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: 2
Components: Verbal, Somatic(waving hands)
Casting Time: 1 standard action (1 standard action=6sec, but can improvise(make shorter))
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text or no (object)

Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks.

Try that?
Also knocking someone out and gagging them works.

But yes, enough Derailing from me Wink

by **Jeanpierre** Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:27 am

Hm. Looking over the thread I think we should make an important difference between the Wow world and our RP world clear.
In the Wow world, you wouldn't have spellcasters having a jolly time casting spells about the city for god knows what reason. In the Wow world a caster earns his place among the magi through such a rigid, disciplined and tiered progression path that there's little left to chance.

In our RP world, where Shadow seems to be around every corner, where magic is used to fancy oneself and there is no all-encompassing structure that gives us such a rigid control system. And who wants to stop that? I think we want to encourage some structure, but not kill magi RP as a whole. Not even dark magi.

Certificates, registrations... it won't work. After 2-3 weeks, people get bored of the administration OOCly and forget about it. Or you'll have people going nuts over it, and make it a PITA. Imagine a new guy in town uses some dark magic to zap your coffee cup away. Sure, it's illegal, but will you behead him for it?
I doubt you'll see the new guy RP in our community again.

It also slows down RP plots... Which should be a choice, never enforced. Too much structure, however logical it may sound, is a limitation to RP. Imagine having an ongoing plot that requires a quick decision.. "Ohh.. nope.. got to pauze it for a week. Need permission first!"
You'd end up having to incarcerate people to freeze the plotline while the administration works. Incarceration should be used because it works in the story, not because we're here to serve some rules.

So we need
- Clarity, to avoid misinterpretations of the law
- Simplicity, to keep it intuitive and easy to play with for both good, bad, lawful and unlawful.
- Ease of use, to keep it fluent and not imposing on RP

I propose something along the lines of:

Shadow magic ((add other schools as needed)) is prohibited in all habited areas with the exception of the following conditions:
- It is performed under supervision by the magi in the mage tower. ((You don't need a magi there. If it's in the mage tower, you can RP it is done under supervision))
- It is done during battle, under service and order of the Alliance Army.

Now, imagine the Dru-Kazbo situation. They'd drag the prisoner to the mage tower to interrogate them. Vaell, as a mage, is still permitted to protest. But for all other players, Regiment and DoL included, it's "mage business" (and you don't meddle with mage business). The use of the spell in the cells would be illegal though.

It basically brings back magic under control of the magi, where it belongs, and off the streets where it shouldn't be. I would apply that law on whatever the source of the magic is: enchantment, spell, rune.. you name it. If you need your dark magic fix, do it in the tower under a presumed watching eye of the magi.

As for "legal" schools of magic, simply add that any crime comitted with magic subjects the caster to a review by magi, or the Minister of Magic, or the Minister of Justice. They may additionally decide to strip away the criminal's spellcasting ability for a period of time (1 week, 2 weeks?).

To me, this sounds like it offers a lot of "pretend control" (which is what RP is about) and yet give us all the liberty to RP what we want.

by **siegmund** Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:32 pm

^
The Magi know everything about magic and how to combat it and keep it in check.

Mages should have more words on these cases, even when dark magic is involved, then Holy people.

Sure they can help and such, yet in a world where the Religion is more or less based on an Aspect of magic (Not counting the virtues, good deeds, humanity and all that), the magi are generally nr 1 in WoW.

by **Jeanpierre** Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:43 pm

Nr1? That's a bold statement considering holies were the key to success in the second war and the fall of the Lich King Smile

But either way, Church-based Light guilds should come with a built-in ethical regulation system. That's why it's interesting to have them involved...
But considering they are involved with guard rights or simply are righteous, what more do they need? If they see Magic being abused anywhere but the mage-tower, they can still step in. But technically.. magic in the mage tower isn't abuse. It's "mage controlled". It's an easy border and is right in a decent RP hub. Should work, I think.

by **Remai D'Waltir** Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:12 pm

I do like what's been said, jurisdictions should really come under the right "sector" so they can best deal with it. I'll bring this up in future.

by **siegmund** Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:00 pm

were the key to success in the second war and the fall of the Lich King

War being the KEY word Wink

Holy people are important, i'm not saying that you have no juristiction, but Misuse of magic is not in your league. You are merely the water boys in this section.

Not related:

And after the Arch Bishop went all POWAH! i'd kind of lose faith in the church.

by **Melnerag** Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:25 am

Here is my suggestion for (nearly) complete Magical Laws of the realm.

List of the Regulated Schools and Practices:

1. Necromancy - manipulating the forces of life and death through shadow sub-school of the Arcane
2. Demonology - study of the demons and the demonic lore and theoretical means of demonic summoning and enslavement.
3. Shadow Magic - arcane and divine spells using the school of Shadow
4. Fel Magic - use of Fel in spells
5. Mind Magic - any arcane or divine means to read or affect the mind

Laws on the Arcane

1. Use of magic in the act of breaking the law carries an additional penalty of an Anti-magic Seal being placed on the delinquent for the duration believed proper by the magistrate.
2. Spells of the Fire School are not permitted in-doors.
3. Summoning of elementals or other non-demonic, non-undead creatures is forbidden in populated areas unless for the defense of the Kingdom.
4. It is forbidden to cast spells in vain in public areas without an official permission to use magic for show in theaters, circuses and street-performances.

Laws on the Regulated Magic

1. Practice, study and teaching of Necromancy is forbidden for all citizens of the Grand Alliance and the Kingdom of Stormwind except the Knights of the Ebon Blade
a) Knights of the Ebon Blade are forbidden from using Necromancy within the realm of Stormwind unless it is for the defense of the Kingdom
b) Non-stormwind citizens known to practice necromancy, but have no practiced it within Stormwind may be abjured from the realm on the orders of the Magistry

2. Study and teaching of Demonology is forbidden unless with the explicit written permission of the Stormwind Mage Tower or the Kirin Tor. All lectures must take place in areas designated for magical study according to a curriculum approved beforehand by the magical authorities.

3. Theoretical study&teaching of Shadow Magic, Fel Magic and Mind Magic are permitted to those with the written permission of the Stormwind Mage Tower or the Kirin Tor. All lectures must take place in areas designated for magical study according to a curriculum approved beforehand by the magical authorities.

4. Practice of Shadow Magic, Fel Magic and Mind Magic is forbidden for all members of the Grand Alliance and Stormwind Citizens who are not recruited in that specific capacity either as a soldier of the Grand Alliance or is under contract as a mercenary with the Army.
a) Shadowcasters, Felcasters and Mindbenders within the military may not use their magic for any purpose other than the defense of the Realm.
b) All known users of Shadow, Fel and Mind-magic, but who have not practiced that magic in Stormwind Kingdon and who are not Stormwind Citizens may be abjured from the realm by the order of the magistry unless they are ex-military veterans who served in that capacity.

5. Demonic summoning is forbidden unless performed by a member of the military in defense of the realm

6. Use, creation or possession of magical items enchanted with or created by any forbidden or regulated magic is seen by the Law as equal practice of that magic.

Mage-specific Punishments

1. Magic-dampening cuffs may be used on those known to practice magic in vain, they greatly reduce the arcane potency of the caster and prevent him casting anything but the most basic spells.
2. Anti-magic Seal may be placed on magical delinquents, preventing any use of magic.
3. Forced Catharsis may be forced on all warlocks, necromancers and shadow-mages who are not executed. Forced Catharsis placed the delinquent in the care of the Holy Order to be cleansed of the corrupting effects of his magic.

PS: 'in defense of the realm' means use in war, so you can't summon an Infernal to catch a thief who runs off with your sweetroll.

by **Tuomas/Decurius** Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:04 am

^
Great, imho. Loopholes are wanted, right?

by **Melnerag** Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:12 am

Longknife/Decurius wrote:^
Great, imho. Loopholes are wanted, right?

Yes, I also left a LOT to interpretation on purpose.

by **Remai D'Waltir** Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:43 pm

Loopholes are one thing but blatant gaps is another. I don't think deliberately making Loopholes for everyone to know is a good idea. What I won't do though is go over and over the laws to make them full-proof so there will be possibilities to find them.

by **Aldric Essalus Helmfrid** Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:33 pm

Why's Shadow and Fel allowed but zealotry isn't?

by **corleth** Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:36 pm

Helmfrid wrote:Why's Shadow and Fel allowed but zealotry isn't?

Regardless of whether shadow/fel is allowed or not, 'zealotry' is such a fucking silly crime.

by Guest Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:33 pm

Corleth wrote:
Helmfrid wrote:Why's Shadow and Fel allowed but zealotry isn't?
Regardless of whether shadow/fel is allowed or not, 'zealotry' is such a fucking silly crime.

by **Drustai** Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:38 pm

Perturbo wrote:
Corleth wrote:
Helmfrid wrote:Why's Shadow and Fel allowed but zealotry isn't?
Regardless of whether shadow/fel is allowed or not, 'zealotry' is such a fucking silly crime.

by **Aldric Essalus Helmfrid** Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:52 pm

As an old-time cultist seeing people propose shadow/fel become legal pisses me off so much. Why go down that route if the taboo nature and the risks associated with it are gone? Stop trying to please the minority of 'I'm so evul, give me a break' whiners and those who stubbornly play evil (Yes I'm classing Shadow and Fel users evil) characters out in the open but have no intention of dying for it.

Before people throw the "it's in the lore" card at me.. Yeah, it's -always- been in the lore, from day one of World of Warcraft. You've been able to play as a Shadow Priest or Warlock since vanilla, have you not? So I fail to see the pressing urgency of this matter to make our laws to which are mean't to supplement our roleplay mirror this fact when they have never before and we've had guilds like the Dark Sphere, Eyes of the Dark Realm, Vorted, Legion's Hand etc etc generate more good vs. evil roleplay than allowing the odd Shadow Priest or Necromancer to wander the streets ever will.

I'll leave that there, entirely my opinion and stance on these proposals/mock-up laws. I'll tell you now the moment my Lightie gets arrested for Zealotry when attacking a Warlock or a Necromancer who somehow is immune to prosecution because of said laws.. I'm off to another server/game/character.

by **Rae Wulfgnar** Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:18 am

I think the Warlock trainers are hidden away in a secret underground place for a reason.

siegmund wrote:^
The Magi know everything about magic and how to combat it and keep it in check.

Mages should have more words on these cases, even when dark magic is involved, then Holy people.

Sure they can help and such, yet in a world where the Religion is more or less based on an Aspect of magic (Not counting the virtues, good deeds, humanity and all that), the magi are generally nr 1 in WoW.

This is a ridiculous statement. Holy Light is not magic. Mages use Arcane magic, Arcane magic is corruptable and addictive. You should read the book on Illidan to see exactly how Arcane magic came about and what it did. Trusting mages to be in charge? Magical Laws In association with the Stormwind laws. - Page 2 M146

Magical Laws In association with the Stormwind laws. - Page 2 M146

by **Drustai** Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:41 am

Far as I'm concerned they should never be legal. And despite playing a necromancer/shadow user, I don't actually like the fact that they're allowed at all, even in defense of the Alliance. However, their allowance in war is canon, so it does have to be acknowledged. But any use of it inside the Alliance's borders for non-war reasons shouldn't be allowed, despite my IC arguments to the contrary.

These laws as they are written look fine to me, though, as they seem to only permit it for the purpose of defending the Alliance in war, as is canon. The previous laws were a bit more lenient.

by **Drustai** Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:44 am

Helmfrid wrote:I'll leave that there, entirely my opinion and stance on these proposals/mock-up laws. I'll tell you now the moment my Lightie gets arrested for Zealotry when attacking a Warlock or a Necromancer who somehow is immune to prosecution because of said laws.. I'm off to another server/game/character.

From what I understand, most servers are much more lenient on it than we are. So transferring servers wouldn't do you much good.

by Guest Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:57 am

Wulfgnar wrote:I think the Warlock trainers are hidden away in a secret underground place for a reason.

That is because fel and shadow are not only illegal to the general public, but hated and shunned by the populace. Except for in the Horde where everybody loves them.

I've only skimmed through the thread, so I may of misunderstood, but I was pretty sure somebody thought magi were in charge of crimes involving magic in Stormwind. No. It is still up to the court, magi are easily corrupted by fel taints(A lot of warlocks are magi who became hungry in their search for power) and are often actually greedy individuals for knowledge and artefacts. Nobody with half a brain would let them be in charge of who is walking the streets. And who's to guarantee that the magi won't be corrupted by the cultists in their grasp? It's quite possible, and definitely not something anybody wants happening.

I like how this server has a lot of its own lore and such... But don't let it turn into outright lollish. Keep the mage tower as what it is, a tower for mages. Not a court. Trust me, I've seen this kinda stuff on AD, it starts with huge law changes, and the next thing you know you have relatives to major lore characters/families (wrynn, windrunner, trollbane, stormrage etc) as accepted and loved members of the community. Which is just silly.

by **Drustai** Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:16 am

Galen Deleroux wrote:Trust me, I've seen this kinda stuff on AD, it starts with huge law changes, and the next thing you know you have relatives to major lore characters/families (wrynn, windrunner, trollbane, stormrage etc) as accepted and loved members of the community. Which is just silly.

I agree with most of your post, but this comparison is just silly. Just because 'huge law changes' occur doesn't suddenly mean that people will start gladly accepting relatives to major lore characters (afterall, we've already had people do that before).

by Guest Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:45 am

It was half a joke Drustai, my apologies if it didn't seem that way.

by **Melnerag** Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:29 am

Simplification of the laws:
Yes, that means that some distinctions are gone but it makes them easier to wield in RP

Definition: the Dark Arts include any practice, study, cataloguing or teaching of the arcane and divine spells and practices containing Shadow or Fel element(s) and theoretical study of the demonic lore.

1) Practice of any form of arcane magic in vain is forbidden without the appropriate Licencse to practice magic for showmanship issued by the Stormwind Mage Tower. Detention through the night and a fine up to fifty silver are recommended punishments, repeated offenders can be equipped with magic-dampening cuffs or an anti-magic seal.

2) Use of magic to aid in a crime carries an additional punishment of an anti-magic seal being placed on the delinquent for the duration deemed proper by the magistrate.

3) Theoretical study and teaching of Shadow Magic, Fel Magic, Demonology, Mind Magic and Necromancy are allowed only with the permission of the Kirin Tor and the Stormwind Mage Tower and must be conducted within areas designated for magical study in strict accordance to a curriculum agreed on beforehand. All who are in posession of the licence to study or teach the dark arts are subject to screening, interviewing and scrying at the convenience of the magical authorities.

4) Practice of Shadow Magic, Fel Magic, Demonology, Mind Magic and Necromancy is only permitted to members of the Alliance or Stormwind Military or mercenaries serving the military in that specific capacity and only in defense of the Alliance from its enemies.

5) All known practioners of the Dark Arts, who are not citizens of Stormwind and who did not practice their magic in Stormwind can be abjured from the realm by the order of the magistry if their presence in the kingdom is believed to be detrimental for the security of the realm.

6) Use, possession and creation of items which are created or enchanted with the aid of the Dark Arts falls under the same law as practice of the Dark Arts, only exception being the Knights of the Ebon Blade who have leave to possess dart artifacs limited to their armor&weapon.

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