Re: Stormwind law - Improvements, updates, suggestions. A discussion thread. (Updated with drafts of the new laws)

[Vaell]

I think you have compared it FAR too much to Medieval society. Death Knights consistently wither and decay anything around them over a set period of time. They need to kill living things to survive. They have just been fighting and slaughtering members of the Alliance only a couple of years back. Every single DK has to kill to survive, not just the Wardens.

As for Worgen, one bite and they've infected someone. This, for a southern Kingdom, is an extremely troubling scenario. Someone cuts you, you can have that wound healed. A worgen bites you? You're cursed for life.

In medieval times, very few common people owned a blade. They were extremely expensive. Joining the guard / army would give you a shoddy metal one but that came with duty. Considering the sheer amount of books that are written in the WoW universe, a documentation system doesn't seem too far fetched due to the amount of people capable of reading and writing.

[Ixirar]

As for Worgen, one bite and they've infected someone. This, for a southern Kingdom, is an extremely troubling scenario. Someone cuts you, you can have that wound healed. A worgen bites you? You're cursed for life.

I'm fairly sure the spell used to "cure" the Gilnean worgen also made them incapable of spreading the curse.

[Tuomas/Decurius]

I think you have compared it FAR too much to Medieval society. Death Knights consistently wither and decay anything around them over a set period of time. They need to kill living things to survive. They have just been fighting and slaughtering members of the Alliance only a couple of years back. Every single DK has to kill to survive, not just the Wardens.

As for Worgen, one bite and they've infected someone. This, for a southern Kingdom, is an extremely troubling scenario. Someone cuts you, you can have that wound healed. A worgen bites you? You're cursed for life.

Right, but here's the trick: sure a citizen could feel in danger knowing that worgen and DKs are free to roam around but, from a lawful perspective, they're both citizens and members of the Alliance, which means that they are, by law, to be respected as such or, in the very least, no laws written specifically against them(in case of worgen, though, I'm all for a law which punishes, and much harshly, deliberate biting/cursing people). Sure, realistic rp means that they are disrespected, feared and hated by peasants and commoners but, officially, Stormwind as a kingdom respects them.

In medieval times, very few common people owned a blade. They were extremely expensive. Joining the guard / army would give you a shoddy metal one but that came with duty. Considering the sheer amount of books that are written in the WoW universe, a documentation system doesn't seem too far fetched due to the amount of people capable of reading and writing.

Attention, we're not speaking about a peaceful medieval setting, but a war scenario. Firm point standing that medieval armies were almost completely formed of mercenaries(and here though another discussion should be made, because what do we know about which kind of people Alliance armies are formed of?) means that a mercenary had to buy his weapons, and being armies of mercenaries available for all kingdoms means that clearly weapons weren't so much expensive. In general, in Antiquity and in Middle Ages people bought their weapons, meaning that entire armies were formed of people who could afford the cost of their weapons(see for example Greek armies)*.

About reading, to say that there are many books means that you have the bureaucracy needed to have a complete list of people in your Kingdom/state is a non sequitur: late Ancient Egypt has the greatest library of the Antiquity, and we can argue that in the capital at least a person in every family could read and write. Still there was no bureaucracy, or a complete registry of people.

Source, among others:
Victor David Hanson; Carnage and Culture

---

I'm fairly sure the spell used to "cure" the Gilnean worgen also made them incapable of spreading the curse.

Silverpine questline I think suggests the contrary, if I remember it right.

[Lexgrad]

Yep if you know for sure link the lore that says worgs cant pass it on. (I know none exists )

As to can a basic beurocrasy keep records google the doomsday book!

Tuomas also makes a v good point. It is not just a SW matter, it is an alliance one so you should tread carefuly.

[Vaell]

Attention, we're not speaking about a peaceful medieval setting, but a war scenario. Firm point standing that medieval armies were almost completely formed of mercenaries

I'm sorry, what armies? Mercenaries were bought out in times of war, no doubt and their blades were no fine steel, they were shoddy. The materials to craft blades and the Blacksmithing profession was rare and expensive. Most people who signed up to an army in medieval periods were doing so for food, safety and shelter. But this needs to be in a History thread, not a Stormwind Law one. People did not walk around with blades on their hips consistently through war times. Most civilians could not afford to.

[Amaryl]

There is no such things as generic "medieval society" The middle-ages spanned a fucking 1000 years across an entire continent..

Put context in your claims, dates and places, instead of generalising a 1000 years of different cultures and places, and systems, and armies and kings and bureaucrats into this one form of "medieval shit"...

[Tuomas/Decurius]

I'm sorry, what armies? Mercenaries were bought out in times of war, no doubt and their blades were no fine steel, they were shoddy. The materials to craft blades and the Blacksmithing profession was rare and expensive. Most people who signed up to an army in medieval periods were doing so for food, safety and shelter. But this needs to be in a History thread, not a Stormwind Law one. People did not walk around with blades on their hips consistently through war times. Most civilians could not afford to.

Sure we could discuss it in a better thread. But the question is: in a medieval(or, if you want, a medieval fantasy setting such as wow or, for instance, LOTR) setting, in which mercenaries and soldiers and so on are all around, and these people have weapons, is it possible or even viable to make a law, not to mention enforce it, which bans weapons or prohibites their carrying in town?

To answer to the right point made by Amaryl, I'd say that, for what I said, more or less it's right for most of the Middle Ages in Europe, from let's say Carolingian Empire (8th Century) up to the 12th-15th Century, even early 16th, but we're out of Middle Ages there; you can check my source, if you wish, specifically the parts about Poitiers and Lepanto. As for the Bureaucracy, idem. Of course, I speak of western countries like France, England, Spain in that time-span, not for example of China or Japan.

Edit: I know it's vague almost the same, but we were speaking in a generic way for a reason.

[Drustai]

As for Worgen, one bite and they've infected someone. This, for a southern Kingdom, is an extremely troubling scenario. Someone cuts you, you can have that wound healed. A worgen bites you? You're cursed for life.

I'm fairly sure the spell used to "cure" the Gilnean worgen also made them incapable of spreading the curse.

Incorrect, you can still spread it. The Gilneas Liberation Front (canon one, not the player one) spreads it and creates new worgen in Silverpine Quests.

However, I personally don't think it would always 'take' after just one bite. Good chance of getting cursed, sure, but not 100%. That way people can decide for themselves whether or not they were cursed.

[Melnerag]

Oh excellent, now Gwendelyn can secretly make the Pack of Holy Anethion >_>

[Lexgrad]

I'm sorry, what armies? Mercenaries were bought out in times of war, no doubt and their blades were no fine steel, they were shoddy. The materials to craft blades and the Blacksmithing profession was rare and expensive. Most people who signed up to an army in medieval periods were doing so for food, safety and shelter. But this needs to be in a History thread, not a Stormwind Law one. People did not walk around with blades on their hips consistently through war times. Most civilians could not afford to.

Sure we could discuss it in a better thread. But the question is: in a medieval(or, if you want, a medieval fantasy setting such as wow or, for instance, LOTR) setting, in which mercenaries and soldiers and so on are all around, and these people have weapons, is it possible or even viable to make a law, not to mention enforce it, which bans weapons or prohibites their carrying in town?

To answer to the right point made by Amaryl, I'd say that, for what I said, more or less it's right for most of the Middle Ages in Europe, from let's say Carolingian Empire (8th Century) up to the 12th-15th Century, even early 16th, but we're out of Middle Ages there; you can check my source, if you wish, specifically the parts about Poitiers and Lepanto. As for the Bureaucracy, idem. Of course, I speak of western countries like France, England, Spain in that time-span, not for example of China or Japan.

Edit: I know it's vague almost the same, but we were speaking in a generic way for a reason.

I greatly disagree with the medievil thing as SW is SW not anything else. It is if anything a military Monarchy which is more akin to say prussia in the C17th rather than anything earlier. Medievil states did not have vast standing armies of pros. Nor did they have orcs or Undead You cant really ratonalise them imo.

[Tuomas/Decurius]

I greatly disagree with the medievil thing as SW is SW not anything else. It is if anything a military Monarchy which is more akin to say prussia in the C17th rather than anything earlier. Medievil states did not have vast standing armies of pros. Nor did they have orcs or Undead You cant really ratonalise them imo.

I do too think that Sw is Sw, and just that, but any kind of work we make to give the lore have sense, and so the laws which w/could be enforced there, has to be somehow speculated, and IRL history is the simplest and major way, imho. Prussia in the 17th century could resemble Sw indeed, but the question remains the same(ah, if any lore-expert could help about a thing* maybe we can find a solution): has Storwind the a bureaucracy similar to that of a modern State or not?

*Alliance, and in particular Stormwind Army how does recruit, lore-wise? There's a definitive answer? Uses mercenaries(as in Middle Ages) or not? The core is of citizens? If so, they're volunteers or there's a period in life in which a Stormwindian citizen has to be a soldier for the kingdom?

[Braiden]

SW is SW

[Ixirar]

Do note that fireballs are realistically a much more dangerous weapon than a sword, so banning weaponry would also have to ban magic, otherwise bandits and criminals would just start learning magic (I know it's not an easy task but if criminals want to be bad they'll be bad one way or the other)

[Antistia]

*Alliance, and in particular Stormwind Army how does recruit, lore-wise? There's a definitive answer? Uses mercenaries(as in Middle Ages) or not? The core is of citizens? If so, they're volunteers or there's a period in life in which a Stormwindian citizen has to be a soldier for the kingdom?

While incapable of providing a definite answer I can provide you with an indication through this quest:

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=28709

I consider the text to indicate that Varian Wrynn instituted a draft for the war in Northrend. This may have been the exception to the general rule (of not using a draft when there's a war to be fought) but it indicates that the Alliance is not above drawing upon the citizenry to wage war and may indicate that this is done more often. I do not see why this policy would have ended as the war against the Horde began in earnest.

[Remai D'Waltir]

Yeah... Banning weapons and magic would just double crime as pretty much only the bad guys will have them then.

[Lexgrad]

Yeah... Banning weapons and magic would just double crime as pretty much only the bad guys will have them then.

That argument is far more complex than that.

[Beladon]

Right, to answer two of the concerns of this discussion; There will be no weapon licenses or outlawing of weapons. There also wont be any racism law.

Amen to that, as i agree quite greatly with gnash.

What i would suggest isnt so much additions or changes to the law, but merely in how Law enforcement treats criminals.

a few nights ago i saw a few characters Arguing/debating law/punishment with the regiment outside the pig and whistle.

In my opinion things like this should be a "non-occurance", guards should smack even suspected criminals across the back of the head and the citizens should be glad they only got that. Guards need to instill the idea they are to be respected/feared/Ran from. Not back-chatted or debated with.

Also, i'd like to point out the idea of lashings/stocks and so forth, to make punishments more harsh. lengthy prison sentances arent realistic in an RP environment due to players being bored, but lashing them until their backs are a bloody mess is more acceptable.

In Stromgarde's law we made it fairly simple in regards that we dont really bother much with law/order/enforcement. you commit a crime, you suffer for it on the extreme end of things, and generally speaking the 'court' ... aka the Lord, is going to be swift and harsh. So people adhere to it closely.

I dont want Stormwind to be a copy, but i'd like to See the guards enforcing the law with a tad more... force.

Tbh this made me think that Sw is pretty much just Britain...The cops are abusive and get back chatted by wee Neds/chavs

[Amaryl]

could be worse, you could have a legal precedence that it is okay to call cops ant-fuckers without retribution, like in holland

[Dorothee/Duvaineth]

No DK will hand over their weapon willingly. After all, it *is* their soul. So that would be a no in my eyes. Register however would be fun.

Who said they'd have a choice?!

The wouldn't die without it though, which a lot of DK seem to believe.[/quote]

This is true dks dont die for being away from their soulblade..over time they loose their mind.
But if icly dks have to turn their weapons over at city gates, well most dks will prob not even bother stepping into sw for ic reasons.. OOC i love the idea but I already can see where it will lead ic.

As for mounts mentioned earlier they are unholy. Dks are also unholy. Personally I think, do correct me if im wrong, but my logic says if a dks unoly mount is forbidden then so would an unoly being like a dk. These unholy mounts are a form of faster travel for dks. Summoning these mounts are not offencive nor defensive spells. They are spells with no affect on anyone.

When a DK joins the alliace, so does his mount and soulblade. Its like a package of 3 items that stick together no matter what. You remove the blade, the wielder wont keep comming back to entrust his soul in the hands of another. That would lead to dks not joining the alliance.

A dk who has joined the alliance wouldnt be thrilled with the idea of being last when the army marches out of the city for war...if they cant mount up that means they have to run. And being slower than a horse, theyd prob miss the battle. Im just speaking realistically. We all know ingame things can be arranged so a DK dosnt get left back.

Dk runemagic. We all know dks use spells with their swords. So a dk who joins the alliance, how is he/she expected to train and better themselves for war, should one occur? Allowing dks to use their magic to fight the hord, but not trusting them while in the kings land to train, is like telling them in the face..Hey we are just using you for war, but we dont trust you, nor want your magic around us, not even deep in a forest thats within kings land. Go to hord territory to practice and come back and fight for us when needed..Personally I think no dk would join the alliance under such conditions.
If dks were accepted as they are by law in the alliance, then theyd prob join. Look at most Dk rping guilds that the server has had and has. None were or are apart of the alliance, for the alliance laws give them no reason to be interested in joining it. I dont know what lore says about the above im just saying what I think.
This was achived by hooking cables to my head that lead to a dead car battery thats connected to a cage with hamsters running on those wheel things.

[Skarain]

reunite all Death Knights and all warlocks of Stormwind

Them both being "Dark magic users" doesn't mean they like each other. Most Death Knights did not "decide" to become monsters, while most Warlocks wanted more power (thus turned to Fel)

...

And about Death Knight & Magic...
I do not know how people treats Deathchargers, are they "summon-able" magical mounts, or merely undead steeds. If they are Summon-able you have no reason to mount up expect when you need speed, or wish to ride a mount on battlefield. You do not gallop on the streets even with living horses. You get them from the stables when you need to travel quickly long distances. A horse is simply "dead weight" if you use one to move around the city, because you're to lazy to walk.

Remember that Stormwinds every district is surrounded by water... Canals. Canals that are used to transport goods from a district to another. To Stormwindians its far easier to use a boat to transport heavy goods than a horse.

Now if they would not be summon-able:
The King himself shouts to respect these fallen heroes of the Alliance. He may not like dead things himself, but he accepts them as Allies. The Respect should be two-sided. Death Knights know themselves that they are monsters, and that things decay around them, people fear them... should they go and intentionally spread fear? Would it be disrespecting your King that allowed you to the city in the first place? Same thing goes to their mounts, as unholy beings. I would imagine Death Knights leaving their horses outside the city, or to a corner far from living beings. It would be disrespectful from their side to attempt to bring their steeds next to the living ones, knowing that even the animals fear the living dead.
If a Death Knight was merely leading his or hers horse for... lets say, through the city to the harbor, as they would be leaving on a ship that would be one of the few reasons a Death Knight would have to ride with their mount though the city.

And again back to magic...

Death Knights magic is very much magic-on-wheels. You press a button > profit. Such magic is not complicated to wield, and thus would not require much practice. If a Death Knight was to carve new runes to their blades - they would need a Runeforge. Only known Runeforges are in Acherus (and Icecrown). They would test it once, see that it works and be done with it. Rune magics result is not something you can change on the fly. You 'can' be creative and activate multiple runes at once, and see how different are things, and again you would be fine with only that one time experiment.

You have your runes. You can carve new runes for new purposes, but you can not change the result much on the fly.

Now if you wish to practice...

The Kingdom forbids of course the use of darker magics within the Kingdom. Still there is that Warlock coven, where Warlocks learn their arts (within the kingdoms borders!). The difference is that the majority of people never get to know it, or doesn't want to even known. As long as you practice somewhere where no-one will stumble even by accident the authorities doesn't have to look to that direction. There is, for example, that watchtower in Southeastern Elwynn Forest. The local guards (NPC's) will keep silent, as they have been ordered to not to bother their minds with it. It is not their business, and it strengthen the Alliance as a whole if the Unholy Warriors are more effective.
So you can practice there. If someone comes you stop, say that its not their business, and leave to return at a later time.
The authorities are more likely to silence that one complaining, than to weaken the Alliance.
If the would not...
Warlocks would not have their coven under Stormwind.

TL;DR
-DK's & Warlocks doesn't like each other anyways.
-Summon-able Unholy steeds are used when you need speed, not to show around.
-Non-summon-able Unholy Steeds are kept, as a two-sided respect away from the living whenever possible.
-Dk's doesn't need as much practice on their wield of magic as Wizards, Mages and Warlocks do.
-If you need to practice, magic or martal arts or swordplay do it out of sight (like Warlocks) and no-one will complain.

[Drustai]

As for mounts mentioned earlier they are unholy. Dks are also unholy. Personally I think, do correct me if im wrong, but my logic says if a dks unoly mount is forbidden then so would an unoly being like a dk. These unholy mounts are a form of faster travel for dks. Summoning these mounts are not offencive nor defensive spells. They are spells with no affect on anyone.

When a DK joins the alliace, so does his mount and soulblade. Its like a package of 3 items that stick together no matter what. You remove the blade, the wielder wont keep comming back to entrust his soul in the hands of another. That would lead to dks not joining the alliance.

A dk who has joined the alliance wouldnt be thrilled with the idea of being last when the army marches out of the city for war...if they cant mount up that means they have to run. And being slower than a horse, theyd prob miss the battle. Im just speaking realistically. We all know ingame things can be arranged so a DK dosnt get left back.

Should you be allowed to summon ghouls in the city, too?

One undead being is enough. The citizens don't want to have to deal with a rotten horse and a rotten ghoul, too. Especially since the Deathchargers are far less preserved than the DKs themselves and therefore would both look worse and smell worse.

You want to ride a mount through a city, get a living one. It's not going to die when you sit on it. It may not like you sitting on it, but it's not going to wither and fall over.

Dk runemagic. We all know dks use spells with their swords. So a dk who joins the alliance, how is he/she expected to train and better themselves for war, should one occur? Allowing dks to use their magic to fight the hord, but not trusting them while in the kings land to train, is like telling them in the face..Hey we are just using you for war, but we dont trust you, nor want your magic around us, not even deep in a forest thats within kings land. Go to hord territory to practice and come back and fight for us when needed..Personally I think no dk would join the alliance under such conditions.

Runemagic is fine. It's necromancy that is not. Personally, Dru's primary DK spec is Unholy, but she uses Frost spec for when I'm in Alliance lands. Frost spec does not use very many necromancy spells, and therefore would be legal. Blood and Unholy DKs, on the other hand, use a lot of necromancy and would therefore have to curtail a lot of their abilities within Alliance lands.

It's not "DK magic" that's banned, it's necromancy and shadow magic that is banned. However, DKs use frost, too, and that is legal.

It should also be noted that shadow magic is legal outside the city walls (until the law gets changed, at least). Necromancy and fel continue to be illegal without permission, even outside the walls, but shadow magic is legal. Therefore, any shadow spells you have would be usable once you leave Stormwind's walls. Thus, Deathgate is legal to use once outside the walls, as are some other abilities.

Them both being "Dark magic users" doesn't mean they like each other. Most Death Knights did not "decide" to become monsters, while most Warlocks wanted more power (thus turned to Fel)

QFFE

I seriously hate people that seem to think that just because both warlocks and death knights (or even warlocks and necromancers) are both dark magic users/outcasts, that it means they're on the same side. The Scourge hated the Burning Legion, remember?

I do not know how people treats Deathchargers, are they "summon-able" magical mounts, or merely undead steeds. If they are Summon-able you have no reason to mount up expect when you need speed, or wish to ride a mount on battlefield. You do not gallop on the streets even with living horses. You get them from the stables when you need to travel quickly long distances. A horse is simply "dead weight" if you use one to move around the city, because you're to lazy to walk.

They are summonable. They are kept in the shadow realm until called for.

Actually, DKs would be faster than a horse in a city. Remember, DKs don't get tired. They can run at a sprint constantly. In a city, with its small, narrow alleys, a sprinting person is faster than a galloping horse, which would have to stop all the time due to obstacles and sharp turns.

[Rae Wulfgnar]

I'm only interested in what is going to happen with the law on Arcane magic used in the city. I would like it to be kept within the lore that is written on wow wiki instead of using other peoples interpretation's of what it is. As new Rpers coming to the server or Rpers that don't know about these forums wont know our own personal interpretations of lore.

Spoiler:

[Drustai]

I'm only interested in what is going to happen with the law on Arcane magic used in the city. I would like it to be kept within the lore that is written on wow wiki instead of using other peoples interpretation's of what it is.

... WoWWiki is not a canonical source. The best thing to do is use canon sources in the game, in the novels, from the CDev posts, and the sourcebooks (though these were declared non-canon as a whole, the devs do admit that much of what is in them is good and that only some stuff is contradictory, so I prefer to treat them as canon except when they contradict other sources).

Spoiler:

Divine Shadow is not limited only to the Forsaken, there are many examples in-game of people using Divine Shadow who are not Forsaken (Auchenai for example). The Cult of Forgotten Shadow is limited to them, however, as that is their racial religion.

[Rae Wulfgnar]

everything seems open to interpretation. Ingame you can res people but in lore no-one has been res'd. I've read the books written by Christie Golden that is supposedly lore but many roleplayers have deemed it rubbish. I have now lots of other people telling me their each different 'correct' opinions on certain lore and its becoming one giant headache. If I can't use wow-wiki to find lore sources, and I can't use the books..then what?

[Tuomas/Decurius]

I have just a question for Skarain and Drustai: what part of this sentence of mine

[...]Of course, to be clear, the death knights and warlocks would have different organizations/IC guilds.

isn't clear?

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