Regarding the Chapter issue. Discussion and Suggestions.

Hello there again, gentlemen... and ladies. After speaking to a few moderators, it's obvious that the matter needs to be discussed and brought to a closure. This topic is not intended to be a personal attack on the people of the Chapter or Exaythe's work, which I must add, is outstanding. But there are many things here which could be made better and improved. There's several issues regarding the current Roleplaying situation which are conflicting with other people and moreso, spurring OOC animosity where there shouldn't be any.

I'd like to try and nail down a few things which seem to be the cause of the issue at hand, and again I repeat, before flaming this post, try to read it through and actually see the points I'm attempting to make here.

First of all, there seems to be the issue of "being unable to take someone's roleplay serious" which in this case would be that of Mandui. But it doesn't happen only to this specific subject. I am sure there are a lot more initiatives and characters which are met with the same amount of disregard. It is said that is lore-breaking to have other species around, however, there are a myriad of reasons for and against. It is not the subject at hand.
The problem with bringing up this subject is that, it is the way the server has developed itself over time. Much like other guilds which have estabilished themselves contrary to what the World of Warcraft lore developers have done. In a static world such as ours, it's up for us to make the best of what we can out of it, adding in our own lore to fill in our every day to day gap. Our server has developed itself in a way that it is able to accomodate such things, like a Gurubashi Empire reborn, a rebuilt Stromgarde and lastly, a Draenei in the Stormwind's council.
This is the setting in which you've chosen to estabilish yourself and develop your character in. And server lore is a big part of our character development, and while I'm not telling you how you should play your character, you should at the very least be lenient and adapt in an OOC fashion to it, to better make things work for everyone. If you feel that the Lore is against that which you'd like to see, and if your characters share the same feelings, then try to change it in a strictly IC manner, rather than whispering people about it and forming "resistance groups" against said person. A lot of things can be done this way.

Another thing regarding the Chapter's actions is that, very well, they are fanatics and it's begun as their event. But the moment they've invited someone else to their event, it's only fair that the event's changed, even if only slightly to accomodate all parties involved. One of the issues that I've found is that despite being invited, third parties and factions are generally ignored if their interference is deemed as inconvinient for the script at play. Instead of adapting the event so there is an actual feeling of influence and interaction, such is hardly done. Speaking for the Gurubashi specific case, all which I've seen are OOC complaints regarding our IC actions (from always the same people) while everyone else seems to be enjoying the thrills and chills which the added Troll threat is creating. There's an incoherent atmosphere in the setting with a few people roleplaying something, and others another. Atleast this is what I've found, and I might be wrong, and if so, please correct me there.

Moving on to the more... complicated part of my post, as it might seem like a personal attack which again I emphatise. It's not even close to be meant as one. I'd like to focus on the catalyst of this entire issue.
It's all true, fine and dandy that your characters are fanatics and that's all fine and dandy too. It's the way you've chosen to Roleplay, and that's alright. However, when you attack someone, for this instance Mandui, there seems to be a problem with her IC retaliation. There are people who go as far as to state that "This Roleplay is invalid because it is lore-breaking".
Now, we're no one to dictate the way you roleplay, and neither should other folks dictate how we should roleplay. There are ways around each of the issues at hand without the need to spur OOC animosity. Again, this brings me to the earlier point of Server-Lore, in which Roleplay fills in the static gaps of our world. While we can question, while we can wonder how it got where it got, why don't we ask and query what has led to the present situation rather than simply insulting and chosing to ignore those present.
On top of this, there seems to be the general feeling that, not only are a few members of the Chapter arbitrarily issuing forth laws as if they were universal truths, (which could be fine ICly in their own twisted, fanatical minds), they expect these laws to be followed accordingly in a strictly OOC fashion, using these as arguments even, to attack those who disagree with them with. Again, in an OOC nature.
I mean, the matter is not that she looks like a cultist, or whether Shadow is actually evil or not from an Outgame perspective. The point is that after you've been allowed to roleplay your character thoroughly, you reject all possible comebacks with nigh-clear OOC claims. These range from the nature of shadow, to the questioning of all the estabilished and generally accepted server lore up to this point.
Roleplay should never be a one-sided activity, otherwise we'll just end up shutting each other out and splitting the community, rather than trying to unite it and develop our characters together. Now, I'm not against Conflict IC, in fact, on the contrary, I quite enjoy the IC conflict which sometimes happens. I can take a beating and I acccept the consequences of my actions, as we all should. I have even several examples of such but they are not of importance to the matter at hand.

When roleplay revealed itself inconvinient to the designs of the Chapter IC, a few of its members took up arms on a strange OOC crusade against the people which steered the plot somewhere else, rather than accepting the IC reactions to their own IC actions.
And this, more than everything is what it comes down to. IC should remain IC. And we should find a way to work around our IC problems instead of spurting a huge war such as the one which has. There is no reason ever, to insult OOCly the other parties, or to try and demove them from their Roleplay, because of what they've done ICly or are about to do.

Finally, to bring this to a closure, what I want to do here, is ask for moderation to come into place when dealing with this sort of activity. There can not be simple slap in the wrist regarding this, for as we've seen, it's done nothing. It continues and I, and some of my guildies for instance, as well as other people have received abuse in /whisper regarding this very subject.
I assume many other people think the same, or have faced similar situations. I'd like to know your oppinion and aid me in the discussion of what can be done, to aid in the solving of the situation and bring it to a closure at last.

Just to resume the post and so people don't lose track of it halfway through, let me try and pinpoint the topics which are to be discussed and worked on in this thread:
- Arbitrary making of laws.
- Fundamenting your IC actions with OOC motives.
- Transcending the IC barrier.
- Inflexible scripting.
- One-sided Roleplay.

I am certain that I have not yet covered all aspects of the issue, but all positive feedback is most surely appreciated. Come and discuss this folks! Make a change! *Obama Mask*

Needless to say most of the issues are because people cannot handle In Charecter actions with In Charecter methods, they have to go to certain lenghts to prove their are right even if it comes down to insulting people OOCly, my suggestion would be that people keep IC where IC should be and OOC where OOC should be, if people cannot see the diference they should not Role Play until they learn it. As for the Chapter, they are doing good, needs a little more guidance in the right direction!

As for the one sided RP part, if they are creating the event its up to them to decide the rulles which others should follow if wanting to participate, again needless to say those rulles must be reasonable for people, so they can enjoy it to the fullest.

As for the Obama mask, HE IS TZENETCH! CHAAAAAAAANGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Alright Exilius, that was funny, but this is not that kind of topic. Regarding the Chapter Geldar, I do agree that they're a great initiative. I refer to the chapter as a whole in my post though to prevent naming and shaming further. But the Chapter needs a bit more leadership and guidance, it is true.

Indeed, but while it is their event, and they invite people to join them then... isn't it a bit like their duty to make the event work for everyone? I mean, if you invite someone to your house, you're not gonna have them sit in the Dog's sandbox while there's plenty of space and resources to put a couch in the room. It's a matter of courtesy at best, a matter of good event management at worse.

First of all I would like to state that this is in no way a personal attack against neither Mandui nor Shrogan (or towards anyone else involved). This is written in good faith and contains only reflections based on my personal point of view and perspective.

Shrogan wrote:
However, when you attack someone, for this instance Mandui, there seems to be a problem with her IC retaliation. There are people who go as far as to state that "This Roleplay is invalid because it is lore-breaking".

I think this is a matter between individuals.
I hardly think that the guild as a whole has a problem with her IC rage.
Therefore this discussion do not belong in a public forum. It should be solved amongst the people involved, with the help of OOC leaders, if required.

Shrogan wrote:
On top of this, there seems to be the general feeling that, not only are a few members of the Chapter arbitrarily issuing forth laws as if they were universal truths, (which could be fine ICly in their own twisted, fanatical minds), they expect these laws to be followed accordingly in a strictly OOC fashion, using these as arguments even, to attack those who disagree with them with. Again, in an OOC nature.

I think that it is fair to say that I have encountered the Chapter's IC views on laws and truth.
You tell me that 'they' (the Chapter?) expect these to be followed OOCly. I have not encountered any of this and I am (currently) very involved with the Chapter.
You also say that 'they' attack people that disagree with them OOCly. Again, I have never seen or heard of this in any form.

Shrogan wrote:
When roleplay revealed itself inconvinient to the designs of the Chapter IC, a few of its members took up arms on a strange OOC crusade against the people which steered the plot somewhere else, rather than accepting the IC reactions to their own IC actions.
And this, more than everything is what it comes down to. IC should remain IC. And we should find a way to work around our IC problems instead of spurting a huge war such as the one which has. There is no reason ever, to insult OOCly the other parties, or to try and demove them from their Roleplay, because of what they've done ICly or are about to do.

I don't see how "roleplay revealed itself inconvinient to the designs of the Chapter".
I have not seen the Chapter on a so-called "OOC-crusade". If they are on a crusade, then Mandui is aswell, since her OOC displeasure with Chapter actions have been revealed on these forums. My point is not that Mandui is on an OOC-crusade. My point is that nobody is.

About insulting people OOCly, when speaking upon the "Mandui-matter", I think it goes both ways. In the "letter to the council" threat, neither side behaved to the best of their abilities.


EDIT:

@to the reply above:
You say that when you invite people to an event, one should also adjust the event to the ones invited.
I say if you choose to appear at an event and take part in the things that takes TONS of time in planning, evolving, creating and actually doing it is "a matter of courtesy" to behave and play along in accordance with the plot.
If your statement was true, then it is actually a terribly bad thing to invite people to your events, since it involves much (much!) more work. That only results in more guild-only events, RP that focuses only on people you know and less events all in all.

To continue the RL-story examples:
you throw a party at your parents. People get insanely drunk and breaks a lot of your stuff. People tell you that:
"When YOU throw a party it is YOUR responsability to make sure that we won't ruin anything"
Basically, it is your job to put everything breakable away.

Will you be the one to throw the next party?

@to the reply below: When whispers are involved it becomes a personal matter to me, not one for public forums. Whispers clearly implies that the actions was done by individuals, rather than by the guild as a whole. That is the reason why I think this debate should not be brought up: It slanters the Chapter, which is unfair, since it is based upon the actions of individuals and not the guild.

Mordazan, this was seen in the previous thread. As well as several insults which I and other people involved received via-whisper. Regardless, I'm currently in a hurry and I will tend to this when I come home. I will return shortly.

I'm not sure what kind of discussion you're hoping to spark here, I think it could do with a little more steering from you if you truly want discussion. The points you bullet at the end aren't really open to discussion, they're the 'best case' way to roleplay. Obviously they're never going to be fully adhered to by anybody (eg. OOC motives always drive our IC actions, not least the motive: I enjoy RP and wish to take part in it).

I read your post as more a 'read this and learn'. People should take away from your post the core lessons (which are bulleted at the end) and ignore the specific circumstances of Duskwood which causes you to post them.

I agree completely with the core lessons and don't wish to be distracted by the specific circumstances as the risk of flaming is too high.

Your post seems directed specifically at certain people within the Chapter. I'd suggest those people are open to the ideas presented here and sit down to actually discuss, OOC and in person, with others ways on improving everyones experience and their own RP. I don't think another public thread here, with ego's on the line, will help in any way.

While as I have no real solution to either problems, I fully agree on the point that IC, should -always- remain IC. Just because you insult someone IC should not transcend to OOC rudeness between the participants. Quite the opposite I think people should be on good terms OOCly, for the fact they have just created some interesting roleplay between one another's characters.

And should it be, that people do have issues with one another, it is as simple as a whisper really. Just -talk- to each others about it. Ask why the person did that, if he/she meant any harm OOC, or explain why you feel this is something you don't fully agree with and come up with a solution together.


Also a bit off topic, this part is something I'd like to pinpoint a bit extra too, seeing I am who I am, and often gets flames and even some people that ask me to go die RL just because I made the guild I made..

The problem with bringing up this subject is that, it is the way the server has developed itself over time. Much like other guilds which have estabilished themselves contrary to what the World of Warcraft lore developers have done. In a static world such as ours, it's up for us to make the best of what we can out of it, adding in our own lore to fill in our every day to day gap. Our server has developed itself in a way that it is able to accomodate such things, like a Gurubashi Empire reborn, a rebuilt Stromgarde and lastly, a Draenei in the Stormwind's council.

Quite frankly, I think that if people have problems with the servers RP lore, they can move server, simple as that. Each server has their own time-line lore. And that is not a bad thing I think, it is what makes each server unique and special, and what makes -our- server so enjoyable for so many different people and tastes.


Also another thing regarding this, I'd like to ask once more to only contribute with valid things. Please do not make a good constructive thread into a flame-war, mmkay?

I have not participated a lot in the Duskwood events, due to recent absence, but the time I have spent there has been enjoyable, albeit dramatic. As Shro'gan sais, the in-game world is, indeed, static, but the Role-playing community and world is not. When you do something as large scale as taking Darkshire, a town that has always been to some extent ruled by cultists, for the Light and all its glory, you have to expect that people will want to take part in this event. And of course the Chapter has invited parties from outside to join in this fun-o-matic ride.The issue with this is, in my opinion, keeping the entire thing too scripted. Since the role-playing community is not static, keeping an event scripted prevents it from taking natural turns of events, which of course is the logical consequence of a large scale event.
As soon as we have people participate, the event will start heading in its own direction.

What I would like to see is people simply going with the flow of things, and as such it is absolutely paramount that the IC actions of every individual or guild are kept IC. The plot will continue to change, and the way to make it more enjoyable is to let go of the scripted boundries and flow with it. Do what your character would do, and expect as well as accept IC consequences to it.

I hope I've made some sense with this confusing post. Thank you for the opportunity to have a say in the matter.

Firstly hey everyone. This being my first real addition to anything other then the 'fluff' forum threads (yes I know pun's abound).

I'd just like to add that I wholeheartedly agree with Eselan and encourage people to simply "Do what your character would do". It's essentially that simple. It's the mantra I apply when playing Jayse. Often he'll do something unexpected with will lead to further (complication) if you will.. but it's simply taking on his train of thought/goals/ideals.

Personally i've only had a very brief look in the whole event as my characters currently 'fighting in paradise' as it were with the Fordragons. Needless to say when he was on leave and heard about the warzone IC he just had to go look.. Was graced with Andreks presence as he stalked the forest on his way to darkshire, and arrived just as Imanuel was 'smoked' in the hall, which put him on the list as a suspect.. Clearly random chance and builds the story.

With this in mind it simply comes down to a matter of acceptance and general good feeling. The server does have it's 'own lore' in a sense. The warcraft lore in its entirety I feel is the overlaying guideline to follow given the setting, but it shouldn't be the brass and tacks. Personally The majority of the guild ideas I love as it just adds varying flavour. Kingdom of Arathor is a concept I have no problem with and are actually glad to see here. Again as with the chapter and the majority of other 'major' established RP guilds and thier various flavours i've come into contact with playing Jayse.

Underlying message I suppose is that were all here with good ideas and variation to spice up the whole community as a whole. Gives the 'static' world life and provides a basis for all kinds of roleplay to occur.

IC 'drama' isn't drama.. it's roleplay. OOC Drama.. isn't needed. In my opinion it's pretty much as simple as that.

Good points by all mentioned in the above postings.

Cheers! <3

I can't say I approve of 7 trolls in full pvp gear without notice attacks tons of roleplayers in their rp-gears.

I just can't find that fair nor smart.

As for server-lore. I do agree on that it is possible to some extents. Provided the lore have loop-holes big enough for it.

But Varian himself sime to be rather unkeen on other races, and reckon he wouldn't approve of a draenei in an important council. (Note that said draenei seem to the power to initiate own votes and the likes.)

To the last part, atleast from me, and maybe others. Our "ooc" claims of her Cultistic garments, magic and steed are the same ones as our "ic" claims. Atleast, for me.

My character is not familiar with the "powers" of Stormwind, thus do not know of a chairlady shadow-user draenei.

To him that is a stright of high treason and cultistism. Regardless if his commander said else. Do note it was speculated Imanuel was corrupted by the Dark Sphere after he was kidnapped. And that his sudden change of will seemed unrational. Thus the disobeying.

~This post contains no personal insults nor insults overall. Simply what floats in my mind and my thoughts of the "discussion" thread.

As a member and officer of the Chapter, I feel the need to clarify:

Until the 'Letter to the Stormwind Council' topic was posted, the majority of Chapter members kept the Mandui situation strictly IC (and the person who whispered her complaints apologised in the previous thread, I believe). We were fine with her attempts to reprimand the guilty participants because it added some extra IC atmosphere to the Duskwood situation. Only when she had posted her inflammatory OOC comment in the previous thread did I, and others, reply in kind (though it seems that fact was omitted from your original post).

Furthermore, your accusations of rampant law-making by members of the Chapter are completely unfounded. Marshal Law was declared in Duskwood some time ago now and all the laws currently enforced in Darkshire were detailed there (https://defiasrp.forumotion.net/in-character-f6/ic-military-government-of-duskwood-announced-t199.htm); this was accompanied by a poll in which the vast majority opted to allow this to occur. But what is most disspiriting is that you claim that the Chapter enforces these rules on an OOC basis, which is completely false; not once have I seen any evidence of that being so. Often, the conflict brought about by people disregarding these rules or claiming that they have the power to disobey them is more exciting than RPing in a situation where everybody is subservient to authority. If you've witnessed any of this sort of behaviour then please report it to us so that we can talk to the offender and amend the situation; if you haven't then, please, stop propagating your false accusations.

Moving on. In regards to Chapter members attacking Mandui, I'd like to reiterate that this action was done on a strictly IC basis; men and women who had been taught not to tolerate use of Necromantic or Shadow magic attacking someone dressed like a cultist riding on a skeletal horse. The only reason that an lore discussion was brought into the matter was because Mandui herself OOCly questioned why us humble zealots would attack a draenei riding on an undead steed. We simply tried to fill this gap in her knowledge of the lore.

As for accusations of ignoring people as well as consequences, I feel the need to state that the Chapter does not ostracise people from RP on an OOC basis, nor does it shirk away from IC punishment on OOC grounds to protect its members. Some of those who perpetrated the assault on Mandui were brought to what could be considered justice. Of course the Chapter didn't string them all up; the punishments were as minimalist as the hierarchy thought they could get away with whilst still keeping good ties with the Council simply because, ICly, the attacks on Mandui weren't frowned upon.

As for you and your guild members receiving abuse via whispers for whatever reason; these actions aren't condoned by the Chapter and if you were to actually inform us of who was participating then something could be done about it. The majority of our members enjoy the added tension of having trolls lurking in the forests as well as undead and cultists and if the minority are giving you lads trouble then we'd prefer to hear about it first hand as opposed to in a public board.

Hopefully, that'll clear up some concerns. I'll be lurking to provide any additional responses should the need be.

I can see Shro's point there. As far as I can tell, the Chapter-Mandui case was used as an example, since I'm sure there have been similar incidents before. The negative consequences of such incidents are always the same in every case though. I also believe that the purpose of this thread is not to condemn anyone and it'd be a shame to see it being steered that way. What I'm about to say doesn't only concern the Chapter, me or anyone else involved in the recent events alone. It's simply an opinion regarding some points and concerning everyone who is part of this community.

A. IC status
From the personal experience that I've gathered on Defias so far, I can now safely say that guilds/RP communities or concepts which have an important role within the server's IC life, representing a development of the game's own lore, have become what they are today through a long period of time and not overnight. It took a lot of effort and dedication from their creators to bring them to where they stand today. That's not surprising, since said guilds managed to gain the trust and respect from the entire community through years of RP. That's actually the only proper way for a guild to achieve such a status.

If a guild pops up one fine day, occupies a region as their own or takes over a significant social role within the community without informing anyone, claim to be sent by their gods/king/warchief, thus being untouchable by players, and demands public acknowledgment and acceptance, it will most probably not be taken seriously by the RP community. It's very much the same with individual characters. One can't simply become a minister of the Stormwind Council for example, or the leader of the horde warcouncil, just because they feel like it. There's a whole context surrounding such an action, involving many players and their guilds. The moment an individual or group decides to be part of the server's RP community, they automatically have to accept the server's lore and the way things are on Defias.

B. Conflicts
Now, there have been and always will always be IC conflicts and that's actually what spices up the RP itself. This is also the part where things get complicated though. What one may believe as right or lore-correct or ICly logical, might be seen as the exact opposite by others. The most appropriate way of resolving this is to first try solving it ICly. IC inquiry and discussions concerning the matter might prove truly helpful in resolving any confusion and they might answer questions, before the whole thing even becomes a big deal. If that proves unsuccessful, an OOC discussion might be helpful, when of course kept civil. People tend to be too fast with drawing false conclusions and become aggressive when their character is placed against uncomfortable situations.

C. Consequences
Furthermore, everyone should be aware that, when they do something ICly and it involves more than just themselves and two-three other people, it will most probably have IC consequences. If a character decides to steal, assault or murder someone, there will be attempts to hunt him/her down and bring him/her to justice; if an alliance guild ventures into the Vale, they will encounter troll resistance and people might get injured or killed; if the Chairlady rides dark clad in a town occupied by a holy Order, she will get her ass kicked. Just a few examples there and their natural consequences. It's really easy to say "I feel like creating an evil character/guild" and then doing so without thinking beforehand. One should be aware what such a decision and the following actions might bring with them in the long run. One should be aware and willing to accept whatever might happen, be it beneficial or harmful for their character. When and if a disagreement arises between people when the consequences finally kick in, they should be an attempt to solve the issue, first in an IC manner or (worst case scenario) OOC means, like I already mentioned.

D. World RP-PvP
There have been endless discussions about what is and what's not fair during such events. This highly depends on several factors and it varies from case to case. Some of those factors are the number each side has, the level of the characters participating, the area where the event takes place, etc. The only rule that should be followed by all participants in every case, is the avoidance of corpse camping. Apart from this, there can't be a universal rule set that applies to every W-PvP event, since every event is unique.

When being part of an event that takes place in a contested territory, and its duration expands beyond just one single day or a single battle, one should be willing to accept the occasional unexpected (but IC nevertheless) attacks that might happen. In a realistic environment, the forces being stationed at said location, would most certainly keep their troops alarmed and in readiness at all times. So it should be ICly as well.

A big part of the IC realism and fun is destroyed, when people insist on keeping everything scripted. One can't always know when and from where the enemy will attack and that's fine too. It's actually part of the consequences section mentioned above. One has to deal with it ICly. Panic will spread, people will get hurt, word for help will be sent and that's the way it's supposed to be. There should be victories and defeats for both attackers and defenders. Admittedly, it's not always going to be fair, but if one takes a look at real wars or battles, they barely ever are fair. Again, I'm not referring to events where the horde and the alliance meet at location X with two armies to fight each other for an hour or two and then go home. I'm referring to W-PvP that happens during lengthy RP events outside major cities.


I hope the above mentioned points are seen as fair ones. If the majority of our community would accept them as such and did their best to apply them, then there would be a lot less OOC conflicts.

(I think the points cover my opinion for now, although I'm unsure if I forgot something. I might edit this at a later time.)

Just to add something to this topic:
I do personally think Mandui's character is a break of lore on the part of the death charger and the shadowy aura. From a Draenic point of view i also don't agree with her leading a human law enforcing agency. But you even got those strange and eccentric people among the Draenei. Probably a hit on the head when the Exodar neatly and softly landed itself in that crater.
This point also does not reference to the flow of role play talked about here in this topic But so far i see the dead steed and the aura add nothing to the role play community but personal gain on Mandui's character that you all seems so eager to defend.

I am not in any position to change anyone thoughts on this matter. But in my opinion server lore should never bypass given lore by blizzard that clearly states any form of necromancy demonology and shadow powers all is outlawed in the kingdom. You should see some people when a new role player does something that is not allowed in the Lore given by blizzard. They are unable to stop laughing or make fun of him/her behind their backs even some people on this forum.

And i think this with Mandui basically the same and is ignoring a big point in given lore. And if i ever see anyone defending Mandui on this manner, comment on a new role player that does not know the lore that well, but tries with the things he knows to join in to the fun. To be insulted, talked behind his or her back for being silly or any other word on this a bunch of Elitist group defending Hypocrites.

Hate me for these words These are my own and not those of the chapter. I am not here to spread Drama, i just say these thing to say my own opinion. And as said before i do not deny that i spoek to Mandui and several other people about this OOC and not around her back.

Speaking regarding the event flexibility.

The script cannot be rigid and inflexible, as there is no script. Just as stated on my original thread announcing the event, all goes as it unfolds. Our laws and regulations are also purely IC and subject to IC criticism and disobidience.

However, I cannot promise 'fair' treatment and rules to people who do not talk to me OOC. If your guild comes to Darkshire and tries to enforce its IC ways, which are contrary to the 'rules' of the Chapter and if that, in our eyes, undermines the Event in general - we will not just sit and accept it. If you want a fair role-play in which you can fully participate and play an 'equal' part, then please at least have the courtesy to contact me OOCly.

A good example of this would be the Dwarven Rifle Squad, Vanguard and Duskwood and the Knights of the Ebon Blade. These parties wanted to join the event, we discussed it Out-of-character and all is fine. So please, but the 'accusations' of inflexibility of the plot and exclusion of people are false. If you want to play a key and equal part in the plot, please do contact me - that is the best way to avoid conflicts. I am sure Mordazan and Vanguard Leaders can fully agree that I discuss with them regularly the flow of the event and where it goes and how it changes based on the -current- -living- situation in Duskwood full of RPers and various parties.

I still believe though, that some parts of the Lore is not only a step-latter for roleplayers to create their own lore, but also up to each person to interpret.

Because in some aspects there is no direct finger pointing to (just for example), that Shadow is in fact an evil force. Some part of the Lore say it, yes, but then there is some parts to say it is connected with the Light itself.

I dare not give out my own words due this being started by Shrogan and

Also another thing regarding this, I'd like to ask once more to only contribute with valid things. Please do not make a good constructive thread into a flame-war, mmkay?

So i'll just say I completly agree with Berathil to avoid arguements.

Like anyone else, you're more then welcome to voice your own opinions Chrístophér, as long as you keep it civil. I believe that's the point of the thread anyhow, to discuss the different views of it all so that there can be a conclusion or solution at the end, hopefully.

And, if I may add, keep any personal dislikings to yourself and/or try to resolve them with the party in question, do not turn your personal likings/dislikings into a flamefest here, this is not the Realm Forums.

Rhebeca wrote:Just to add something to this topic:
I do personally think Mandui's character is a break of lore on the part of the death charger and the shadowy aura. From a Draenic point of view i also don't agree with her leading a human law enforcing agency. But you even got those strange and eccentric people among the Draenei. Probably a hit on the head when the Exodar neatly and softly landed itself in that crater.
This point also does not reference to the flow of role play talked about here in this topic But so far i see the dead steed and the aura add nothing to the role play community but personal gain on Mandui's character that you all seems so eager to defend.

I am not in any position to change anyone thoughts on this matter. But in my opinion server lore should never bypass given lore by blizzard that clearly states any form of necromancy demonology and shadow powers all is outlawed in the kingdom. You should see some people when a new role player does something that is not allowed in the Lore given by blizzard. They are unable to stop laughing or make fun of him/her behind their backs even some people on this forum.

And i think this with Mandui basically the same and is ignoring a big point in given lore. And if i ever see anyone defending Mandui on this manner, comment on a new role player that does not know the lore that well, but tries with the things he knows to join in to the fun. To be insulted, talked behind his or her back for being silly or any other word on this a bunch of Elitist group defending Hypocrites.

Hate me for these words These are my own and not those of the chapter. I am not here to spread Drama, i just say these thing to say my own opinion. And as said before i do not deny that i spoek to Mandui and several other people about this OOC and not around her back.

I will answer to this for the last time, since like I already mentioned, the purpose of this thread is neither about me, nor you or anyone else involved in the recent event.

Yes, the lore dictates that Draenei are inherently good and follow the Light. A personality however can change throughout a character's life, no? Something major might happen and then everything, or at least some very important personality attributes, can be altered to the opposite direction. Did you ever consider trying to find out ICly why Mandui is the way she is? Why and how she even became (not the leader, another misconception you have there) a member of the council? Or even why she rides that steed? No. Did you try asking me OOCly? No. The only thing you did was to say that you disagree/don't like the way Mandui is and asked me OOCly to change it, ignoring my own tries to explain the reasons, even without you asking those "why's". The end.

It's silly to expect me to react to this really. I bet no one would react to it. If you had bothered asking though, be it IC or OOC, you might had seen that I'm not ignoring any of the game's lore.

I have very often experienced people becoming upset when something is unclear to them. They don't understand certain IC actions that happen, or the way some things are, and instead of trying to understand by asking, they get angry, start calling people "Elitist" and "Hypocrite". Not everyone is an elitist or a hypocrite simply because you fail to comprehend what's going on. I won't go around telling everyone about the plots in which my characters are involved, what would be the fun in that? Those interested to find out though, are most welcome to try in an IC manner. You refused to do so and took everything to OOC. I'm sorry, but that's not my fault.

Please, refrain from bringing this up once and for all. This thread shouldn't be derailed over personal issues.

Imanuel wrote: Speaking regarding the event flexibility.
However, I cannot promise 'fair' treatment and rules to people who do not talk to me OOC. If your guild comes to Darkshire and tries to enforce its IC ways, which are contrary to the 'rules' of the Chapter and if that, in our eyes, undermines the Event in general - we will not just sit and accept it. If you want a fair role-play in which you can fully participate and play an 'equal' part, then please at least have the courtesy to contact me OOCly.

To give a good example of this: The chapter imprisoned a few people. Who were saved several moments later when the chapter people did leave the RP spot. Only to come back find the prisoner missing.
Another example : People enforcing their ways upon the Chapter while IC the town is in a strict grip form the Chapter and its helping forces. As we can't go shoot each person or burn them on a pyre for going into the chapters way since no one likes to see his character die without a nice reason OOC.

Also on top of that we in the chapter noticed that the moment Ovelia's temporary ten minute character got burned on the pyre. In stormwind they knew second later innocents were burned. as if someone logged onto his gnomish laptop and used 'bicker' to 'bick' about it.
And no one that i have seen actually investigated it that she was not a cultist with maybe a trap door under her house or a dark ritual prepared in her stable. It was just known she was innocent.

Roleplayers are either.

A-Bored shitless as nothing is going on, slightly Rp here and there with no real plot.

B-Involved in a brillant concept, an awesome chance to develop the characters and such.

In A, they moan and die of boredom.

In B, they moan and die of drama.

JUST HAVE FUN!

Jeez....

Rhebeca wrote:Rhebeca's post

Both valid points there, Rhebeca, and even though I can understand that time is not exactly "strict" in RP, I can see why you were disappointed at it.

Explaining:

Time cannot be linear. Why? Because we roleplay our chars, we're not them. If I want to use the bathroom, my char will remain silent, that doesn't mean his silence is IC. If I got 1 hour to rp, I don't see the wrong in "speeding up" some things. If I need to go sleep, any IC conversation will have to end, whether my char would end it there or if he'd ramble on for the next 5 hours.

You know what makes or breaks that? Communication. If my partner knows ooc'ly that I have to go and gives their consent to "wrapping it up", there won't really be many dire consequences to it (unless they too are agreed by all parties and advance the plotline, ofc). Same here, it'd be silly to expect people to go afk for 2-3 days and then come back with a "realistic time" for them to know in Stormwind what happened in wherever-that-10min-char-was-burnt. Note here: I'm not saying that was the case, I'm not justifying it, I'm just using it as an example to display why communication is so important. As it's obvious it wasn't alright with you, otherwise you wouldn't be miffed about it and bring it up as a bad example.

A symbolic sentence here is: my char, Veylar Teralian, Kaldorei, will most likely live for some 100-200 years more. Will I be rp'ing him for the next 100-200 years? As much as it'd be fun, I somehow don't think so. We all "shrink" our chars' lives, to fit into a reasonable period of time, evolve, climax, wither. Why? Because we enjoy RPing them. What would be the fun in RPing every single second of your char's life? Go on, show me one who does that. Using the toilet, eating for 10-15 minutes, RP sleeping and whatever sleeping behaviour they have, rp them farting, sneezing every 20 seconds, catching a cold, all that... is frankly unneeded. (again: unless it advances the plotline, or is used as emphasis).

I can see very valid reasons why "x crowd" in "x city" would be able to know things that happened in "y area" within 30 seconds. Because that's 30 seconds of YOUR time, not theirs. And that's where we all balance. It's a delicate balance too. Without communication and common agreements, there's no way in hell we'll ever manage to synchronize that "shrinking" of time.

And the same goes for everything that concerns RP. You had a hidden knife? Good for you! Would my char have noticed? Probably not.. but... it's not your decision. Assuming that decision, without even letting me know, is plain rude and not fun.

That's why those examples are tagged "bad examples" there. Because there was no communication.

Did anyone contact Mandui ooc'ly to ask her how she'd feel about being attacked? Did anyone ask her if (imaginary scenario here, I've no idea, I'm just brainstorming) she was headed to someone's grave, to RP with someone else for 20 minutes before she had to go to bed? Just tossing examples here, don't get caught in details, please, this could apply to any and every RP setting/event.

Bottomline, it boils down to communication. That's the problem here. Lack of communication breeds ill feelings, dislike, demonization of the "enemy", when all in all, it's no more than misunderstanding with noone at "fault".

That's my two copper.

Imanuel wrote:I am sure Mordazan and Vanguard Leaders can fully agree that I discuss with them regularly the flow of the event and where it goes and how it changes based on the -current- -living- situation in Duskwood full of RPers and various parties.

I agree very strongly with this.

I'm working very closely with Imanuel on this event and Imanuel has done everything to keep the communication good, keeping the event alive and working like hell for it.
He is keeping everything working and he is damned good at it. He is the suprime and unquestioned leader of this event. And even if I like to see myself as the second-in-command in this event, the things I have to coordinate is nothing.
He writes the posts here. He makes the maps. He talks to all the people involved. He takes all the shit being thrown at the event.

He takes all the shit being thrown at the event.

He does indeed, and I reckon its quite alot.