Stormwind Kirin Tor Fel and Necromancy

This might have been brought up before...

But..

Archmages of the Kirin Tor forbid warlocks and necromancers from their ranks.
http://www.wowpedia.org/Archmage

Spoiler:

Spoiler info is taken out of: http://www.wowpedia.org/Talk:List_of_mages The last sentence of said spoiler, is very much what I am
aiming to find out if it proper. As I for one have rp'ed that to be a fact for a long, long time.
There is rp going on claiming how Kirin Tor is accepting use of fel and necormancy under supervision. I have been looking around all over for lore supporting or working against said claim.

Now before I begin to post a lot of different possibly questionable sources around. I am just gonna prod with the question.

This link is short. But to the point. It is also questionable source wise. So lore addicts.. Before I spam with all the rest.. Do please speak out. As my character Cendia.. Is not so pleased with the words spoken around at the time being.

Before you reply to this thread read this:
1. I do not want your own personal view..
2. I want links to lore proving that:
1. Necromancy is forbidden entirely by the Kirin Tor ( I got some links on that on lore)
2. Fel magic and Kirin Tor.

I want actual proof going one way or the other, not guides written by people claiming to have it from lore please. As that is not actual sourcers.

Aadaria-Ioanna wrote:This might have been brought up before...

But..

Archmages of the Kirin Tor forbid warlocks and necromancers from their ranks.
http://www.wowpedia.org/Archmage

Spoiler:

Spoiler info is taken out of: http://www.wowpedia.org/Talk:List_of_mages The last sentence of said spoiler, is very much what I am
aiming to find out if it proper. As I for one have rp'ed that to be a fact for a long, long time.
There is rp going on claiming how Kirin Tor is accepting use of fel and necormancy under supervision. I have been looking around all over for lore supporting or working against said claim.

The Kirin Tor do not accept the use of fel and necromancy. This is stated clearly in WoW: The Roleplaying Game sourcebook (where the quote in the spoiler is from.), in WoW itself, and in The Last Guardian.

"Those few who lived swore an oath of vengeance. The Archmages of Kirin Tor bear a deep hatred for the arts of necromancy and the servants of dark powers." - WoW: The Roleplaying Game

"Arcanists following the path of the necromancer or the warlock are not welcome in the Kirin Tor. In fact, they are lucky to escape the wrath of the archmages alive." - WoW: The Roleplaying Game

However, it is quite likely that they accept the presence of warlocks/death knights/etc in Dalaran, much like every other city. But the actual use of it would not be legal.


That being said, the RP incident that sparked this whole debate was a matter of shadow magic, not necromancy or fel. Both incorporate shadow magic (along with fire, life, and other elements), but the spell in question does not fall under either necromancy or fel. In fact, it falls under the school of enchantment. There is no lore that strictly states that all spells involving the element of shadow are banned. While shadow is the primary element in necromancy and fel, it is also used in enchantment, evocation, illusion, conjuration, and so on. Necromancy and fel are banned, but it is never directly stated that the element of shadow itself is. Therefore, spells of the element of shadow that are not necromancy and fel (like mind control and mind vision, which are enchantment and divination, respectively) are possibly allowed to some degree.

This link is short. But to the point. It is also questionable source wise. So lore addicts.. Before I spam with all the rest.. Do please speak out. As my character Cendia.. Is not so pleased with the words spoken around at the time being.

Before you reply to this thread read this:
1. I do not want your own personal view..
2. I want links to lore proving that:
1. Necromancy is forbidden entirely by the Kirin Tor ( I got some links on that on lore)
2. Fel magic and Kirin Tor.

Fel magic and the Kirin Tor
“The official teachings in the Violet Citadel, in Kirin Tor, is that demonology is to be eschewed, avoided, and abjured. Any attempt to summon demons are to be found out and stopped at once, and those involved are to be expelled. Or worse.” – Khadgar, The Last Guardian

Summoning demons is explicitly outlawed. Demonology itself is, according to this, avoided but not strictly banned (this is also evidenced by the fact that Khadgar's first master, Guzbah, studied demon-lore at Dalaran, with no repercussions)... likely for the same reasons as the following:

Necromancy and the Kirin Tor
"It is highly illegal and should be avoided at all costs. I discuss necromancy here only because it is our obligation to have a basic understanding of the magic employed by our enemies - and make no mistake, any practitioner of necromancy is your enemy. Necromancers and their followers are the enemies of all living things. Their influence must be avoided at all costs." - The Schools of Arcane Magic, Necromancy. World of WarCraft

"It is our obligation to have a basic understanding of the magic employed by our enemies." As such, some minor theoretical-only studies into both fel magic and necromancy are likely taken, but only for the purpose of countering it ('Defense against Dark Magic' studies). The actual use of either is strictly illegal in the Kirin Tor.


Therefore, if the Kirin Tor were to 'allow' any use of necromancy or fel magic in Stormwind, this would indeed be illegal for the Kirin Tor magi involved. Though the Stormwind law gives permission to allow it, the Kirin Tor would never allow it. Even if the KT field agents ordered its use, the Kirin Tor in Dalaran would decry such a thing and likely have those agents arrested. Therefore, practically speaking, the laws against necromancy and demon-summoning in Stormwind are 'solid'. The Kirin Tor would never allow such even if Stormwind allows the Kirin Tor to allow it, therefore the 'Kirin Tor may allow it' clause has no practical purpose in reality. The only ones that could ever possibly allow necromancy or demon-summoning in SW would be the Stormwind Mage Tower.

Once again, however, the spell involved in the RP incident in question was an enchantment spell that uses the element of shadow, not a necromancy or fel spell. Therefore, no Kirin Tor laws were broken. However, the Kirin Tor is officially against the use of extreme interrogation methods. That is something you guys could certainly hit on! Though whether or not mind reading counts as 'extreme' is a debatable point.

As Drustai says, the investigation is already underway and we have our material to hit them with

But as a side note to the Shadow magic not being illegal - I'd argue that it depends on the use of it. As with, say Fire, to light candles around the city - fair enough, but to set someone randomly on fire = clearly illegal. It may not be a direct law to restrict the use of Shadow, but I am sure it would be considered irresponsible use of magic (endangering with consent), assault etc, which do fall under both Kingdom's laws I am sure.

EDIT: As an extra side note, my character will seem over zealous when it comes to the use of Shadow in any form due to three factors. One, he is a man of faith and although the light is not the direct opposite of Shadow magic - the two are continously in conflict; strongest example being the late Archbishop Bennedictus. Secondly, he is a Violet Warden so has seen corruption first hand on many occassion which links in with my last factor: Shadow magic is highly corruptive as a form of magic. Now, I don't have any sources to back me up on this other than the obvious fact that pretty much anyone in lore who is using shadow magic seems to be on the side of evil. Not to mention the Old Gods specialise in it.

Vaell wrote:But as a side note to the Shadow magic not being illegal - I'd argue that it depends on the use of it. As with, say Fire, to light candles around the city - fair enough, but to set someone randomly on fire = clearly illegal.

Yes, obviously.

It may not be a direct law to restrict the use of Shadow, but I am sure it would be considered irresponsible use of magic (endangering with consent), assault etc, which do fall under both Kingdom's laws I am sure.

Possibly, possibly not. There is torture equipment below the Cathedral of Light, which implies that Stormwind is permissive of such treatment of prisoners. But as we can see from 'The Art of Persuasion', the Kirin Tor on the other hand do not accept extreme methods. However, mind reading may not be seen as an extreme method.

Perhaps not, but the victim was screaming for help

Also,

Stormwind is permissive of such treatment of prisoners.

Stormwind... or just the Cathedral of Light?

Drustai: The things rp'ed upon is that the laws of Stormwind is to be considered changed due to the claim of how Kirin Tor tolerates use of fel and necromancy when under their orders

This is something that Cendia will have a rage fit from hell about some how As she is not able to attend the coming council meeting due to me working RL ;D

Vaell wrote:Perhaps not, but the victim was screaming for help

Prisoners might scream for help when being cuffed, that does not mean they are actually being harmed, does it? Nifty also claimed that Drustai implanted fake memories in her, that does not mean her claims are accurate. Drustai had not even started the spell at the time of the 'screaming'. Nifty was trying pretty hard to lay it on thick because Vaell demonstrated that he was easily-moved by it. There's a reason Drustai told Vaell to pull himself together, he was giving Nifty something to work with and played right into her hands.

Prisoners can and do lie if they feel it will get them better treatment. The trick is in understand when they are telling the truth and when it is sincere.

Aadaria-Ionna wrote:Drustai: The things rp'ed upon is that the laws of Stormwind is to be considered changed due to the claim of how Kirin Tor tolerates use of fel and necromancy when under their orders Smile

Ahh. I thought you were talking about the actual incident at the command center, as that was what started the debate.

But yes. The Kirin Tor does not tolerate the use of fel and necromancy. Therefore, while Stormwind law does allow them to grant permission for its use, Kirin Tor law does not, therefore any Kirin Tor mage who would attempt to grant such permission would be breaking Kirin Tor law.

Just saw the edit to your first post, Vaell.

Vaell wrote:EDIT: As an extra side note, my character will seem over zealous when it comes to the use of Shadow in any form due to three factors. One, he is a man of faith and although the light is not the direct opposite of Shadow magic - the two are continously in conflict; strongest example being the late Archbishop Bennedictus. Secondly, he is a Violet Warden so has seen corruption first hand on many occassion which links in with my last factor: Shadow magic is highly corruptive as a form of magic. Now, I don't have any sources to back me up on this other than the obvious fact that pretty much anyone in lore who is using shadow magic seems to be on the side of evil. Not to mention the Old Gods specialise in it.

He's certainly right to be zealous about it. While shadow is natural (unlike fel/unlife, which are unnatural), it is a very dangerous element that runs counter to life and the Light. I imagine that even if Dalaran does permit some spells that use it, it'd still be quite heavily regulated (somewhat like dark magic in the HP universe, which is seen as bad but occasionally permitted for certain official uses). There's just no lore source out there (that I can find) that specifically describes the element of shadow itself being completely illegal, so we're on our own there.

Clearly as already stated the problem isn't fel/necromancy (Although some members of Kirin Tor could practice it in secret - later banished but still - also i do not know how many of the kirin tor Rpers do have these... secrets).

Also There is still Blood Mages -> Blood magic

Now Most Of the people/rpers who do posses such magic lean on the "Evil like" Side, while some are just rather left alone. Only a few would be somewhere "Good" like yet still not like lighties or help the alliance/Helped in northrend.

Yet still a notable person who failed utterly is:

Wilfred Fizzlebang (http://www.wowwiki.com/Wilfred_Fizzlebang)

Yet again a reminder that summoning demons is not so hard but.... well you get the rest.

Though you can't say that there aren't any at all warlocks that serve the under the king or shadow users/etc, but the fact remains that they require permission to use darker magic.

(Personally i'd love to see some that kind of guild/society)

siegmund wrote:Clearly as already stated the problem isn't fel/necromancy (Although some members of Kirin Tor could practice it in secret - later banished but still - also i do not know how many of the kirin tor Rpers do have these... secrets).

Also There is still Blood Mages -> Blood magic

Due to blood magic's association with fel and necromancy, it is usually seen under a bad light. Although in player lore it is 'accepted' if viewed somewhat poorly by most of the eastern kingdoms and Dalaran. We actually have a blood archmage in the Kirin Tor player organization, and the mage-hunters employ a bit of it for hunting down rogue mages.

Though you can't say that there aren't any at all warlocks that serve the under the king or shadow users/etc, but the fact remains that they require permission to use darker magic.

Warlocks and Death Knights are allowed to serve openly in the Alliance, yes, but their arts are limited to outside Alliance territories, in defense of the Alliance during times of war. The laws being discussed here are about using those arts inside city/national borders.

I find this most ironic:

Highlord Tirion Fordring yells: The loss of Wilfred Fizzlebang, while unfortunate, should be a lesson to those that dare dabble in dark magic. Alas, you are victorious and must now face the next challenge.
Garrosh Hellscream yells: Treacherous Alliance dogs! You summon a demon lord against warriors of the Horde!? Your deaths will be swift!
King Varian Wrynn yells: The Alliance doesn't need the help of a demon lord to deal with Horde filth. Come, pig!
Highlord Tirion Fordring yells: Everyone, calm down! Compose yourselves! There is no conspiracy at play here. The warlock acted on his own volition - outside of influences from the Alliance. The tournament must go on!

They kind of allowed it and he wore an ally tabard as well. Durstai your char should be careful a slight slip and the lighties will brush you away and say it was your fault. True story.

Though ya officially it was his fault all the way, he was more of a amateur warlock trying to make a point.

Not really lorewise, but for anyone that wants a laugh about him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAR9qlLQiLQ

Tirion is a filthy hypocrit. He invited the Warlock to summon a Demon for his so-called champions-to-be to fight, and when it backfires, suddenly you are not supposed to dabble in dark magic? Tirion, you invited the man and allowed him to summon a Demon under your watch!

Have you learned your lesson?