Re: To our Alliance and their guild leaders. An encouragment. [DO LOCK THREAD PLEASE. ]

by **siegmund** Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:05 am

At the beginning of my rp choosing to be some kind of assassin/merc wasn't the best idea right now, but i'm happy i did even with the giant fails. Since i had more opportunities to learn things.

I agree that everyone can die Good or Bad, but generally if you're bad you should have a higher chance to IF you mess up.

The man thing what i learned in this time Having a Rogue (Which is now a proud member of the Freelancers - And still doing things in the background)
And a warlock that the thing is you are 99% of the time outnumbered, you can't win directly every single time if you don't use a creative way.

Being deceptive, tricking your opponents, forcing them to do your work, spy, run and hide behind the corner (I used this on my Warlock who was chased by the Chapter).

Even if you say Normal thugs are not smart.... Who said you need to be smart to be evil or a thief? A pickpocket has been learning this all their lives ever since they have been a kid, new ways to rob and so on.

We need to remind ourselves Wise, Creative > Smart (Since i can always ask someone else about lore info)

If you don't want to be caught/killed you have to act like it!

by **Thondalar Stormleaf** Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:26 am

Huh, for some reason my post yesterday did not go through... In any case:

While I do not mind one of my chars dying when it is 'correct' for it, I also do not feel very much want for Leeria to die. Because while DK's can survive a lot, they can still die.

So if she *can* She will try and avoid combat that might end with her death.

by **Kittrina** Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:28 am

Very much in support of this, and a couple of points relating to what Aad and JP said about it leading to bizarre situations;

Without fear of the possibility of death to motivate characters in RP, it leads to violence being escalated to ridiculous levels. For instance, I've lost track of the number of people that come into the Pig, start fights, and then when faced with a polite 'Please leave and calm down or settle it in the streets....' not only ignore this, but escalate things to the point where weapons are drawn, shots fired....but then you get the whisper 'I don't want my character to die'. Now, what sane person would start a fight to the death about being turfed out of a bar to calm down? But it happens all the freaking time, because people have in the back of their heads 'It's fine, they can't kill me unless I agree'. People must just REALLY REALLY want their beer Razz

It also leads to messed up situations when people decide to resurrect on the spur of the moment, or without consequences. Naming no names, a Blades character was killed off (I'll add; yes we checked with her if it was alright beforehand- she accepted. We never try to force people to death and always give feasible methods of escape/a friendly warning in whisper if it's going that way.). There was a burial, funeral, etc. The next day I log on to find she'd decided her character had been resurrected in the night by a 'passing worgen' (ie, not any actual player, or anything rp-ed out) and was now in the Command Centre telling all the guards she could find that we'd killed her.

Death should be rare, but final, and scary. (Also, it should be avoidable by good sense, like others I really hate 'random attacks' and would likely ignore them, or take a non-fatal wound) If placed in a situation where it's surrender or die, more people need to be willing to go the 'surrender route'. Rather than MY CHAR IS A BADASS I'LL FIGHT YOU ALL OFF AND YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING NYEH NYEH Razz

.
That said, there's still an onus on the attacker to consider ways the 'victim' could escape or survive realisticly. But within reason, and within reality.

by **Kristeas Sunbinder** Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:56 am

Dead characters always sound like a lot of effort and little reward to me.
It might take a whole investigation, disruption of other events, sudden organisatorial vacuums followed by "meh, we're at war, people die, get over it".

by **Rae Wulfgnar** Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:13 am

I agree and disagree with this. Some criminals are good at lying their way out and some, as Kittrina said prefer the badass route of not being afraid to take punishment when instead should prefer the surrender route. Who isn't afraid of being beheaded? really!

I've read through the posts and noticed that a lot of people have said their characters have lied to get out of the death sentence and well, with the rule currently being ''Don't kill my toon without permission'' looming over every-ones heads I think its just second nature not to get the death sentence. As jp said ''You loose a lot of story. That's the real effort, in my book.'' which is probably why the death sentence is avoided.
I personally would like to bring harsher punishments for those that think its alright to threaten to kill some-one; or openly kill some-one in the streets and to admit the use shadow/fel magic. Death punishment being the main one for extreme cases such as murder and using fel/shadow magics and branding for pettier crimes with a mark on the back of the hand or the head. With these kind of consequences I think criminals will up their game or think twice about back talking a guard! However, my character will be pushing for execution on those extreme cases. cheers

by **Lorainne/Bridlington** Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:34 am

Last night, I found myself in the situation were Bridlington was walking from Old Town to the Mage Quarters, where suddenly the emote "-throws an axe at Bridlington's back." appeared on my screen.
Was I wrong to reply "-ignores the emote on the grounds that the player would rather not experience character death at the hands of an unrational, unthoughtful, overpowering move."?

I do wonder if I have the right to decide what happens in my character's environment. Did I have the right to completely block this role play on grounds that -I- thought it was unrational, while the player might have all the reason to want to murder a stranger.

Truth be told, I simply ignored it because:
a) I'm sick and tired of the vast amounts of role players turning to thievery, robbery and assassination to the point where a normal character cannot even walk across the gentrified Catheldral Square without having a knife put through his liver. If a player wants to be taken seriously, I 'seriously' suggest to put forth reasoning to wanting to stab a person in a very gentrified area, rather than simply running at said person, spewing out an emote and hoping for the opponent to give in.

b) I failed to recognise this player, and the following whisper "He's a very angry man and you shot his girlfriend." was even more off-putting. I wonder why a character would have an enormous axe in his hand. I wonder why a person would ever throw an axe at a stranger of which he 'believes' could 'possibly be' the murderer of his mistress. I wonder what a thug was doing before dusk on a bridge leading to a gentrified area. The reasoning simply does not add up for me.

c) I simply refused to be forced in to another scenario where ludicrous and obscene emotes are flung around in the hopes to 'annihilate' ones character. It does not add to generating role play, and would only add to the disappointment of myself, since I would've eventually allowed him to cripple, or even murder my character.

by **Kristeas Sunbinder** Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:58 am

Lorainne/Bridlington wrote:
I do wonder if I have the right to decide what happens in my character's environment. Did I have the right to completely block this role play on grounds that -I- thought it was unrational, while the player might have all the reason to want to murder a stranger.

At the core you are likely paying your subscription so you can play for yourself, in other words you don't roleplay because others need/demand/blackmail you into it. Also they are as free to rp that you got killed (without you having to act on it) as they are free to throw that axe at you.

These kinds of emotes bring up an aspect of my upbringing, my mothers opinion in regards to arriving late to a meeting. It can be interpreted as a sign of "your time has no worth to me", in the rp case it's a signal that everything you did on that character, every bit of gear searched, every minute of time spent for that character, it all is worthless in the eyes of the "killer".

by **Jeanpierre** Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:47 pm

That's a good point Kristeas. It does imply a lack of respect and acknowledgement from the other roleplayer.

by **Rmuffn** Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:06 pm

Sophyra has been killed by Vincent actually.

by **Muzjhath** Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:33 pm

On the point JP made about it being a story.
I'm gonna ad a point.

Yes, it's sad. It can be horribly not fun.
But one of the biggest flaws with subpar authors is just this: They don't let their story end. They keep on writing.
Some of the best roleplay happens because of one players sacrifice. Even if it's just a wound, it's getting kidnapped, or the biggest one. Death. It generally does GREAT things.

Back in TBC when Sin Belore was resently reformed there was some quite good RP between them and the Sixty. Started up by me that then took on quite a bit of life by itself. It would have gotten no where if people weren't willing to let their characters get beat up. Yes, it ended before the escalation rose to death, but characters were still incapazitated for months. And had situations called for it I know that at least I would have offered my character up if cornered. (hint for all the bad guys out there. If you're in a turf war with a big good guy organization. Walk around in groups of at least five!)

It is about respect etc, etc. But respect is a two way street.
It might be very bad for one player (or a group) to kill off a character. But it is imo often a bigger bad for one player to do extremly stupid things and then just shrugg it off. Like say lead a big cult semi openly, get caught in the act. Imprissoned, ANd then escape mostly through deus ex machina.

Or for that one guard to "stumble" oppon a cultist hideout. Get away even when surrounded. And then tell all other guards where they hide.

About the Character I offed on sort of a whim. That created some great RP. It made it so that the Red Blade tribe did not abandon allies who insulted us and said they didn't need us in the Northern campagin. And caused the Alliance to get the shit pounded out of them.

It also ended a great story. (True, at times his spirit is still around. But that's because it's fun to use against Morgeth! That silly young warlock's gotta grow up!)

So about the story and time invested. Yes, that is true. Very true. But every good story needs a good ending, and can't continue forever. Just imagine if someone like Robert Jordan had writen Lord of the Rings. Frodo would STILL be walking through Moria if he had.

by **Drustai** Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:39 pm

Wulfgnar wrote:I personally would like to bring harsher punishments for those that think its alright to threaten to kill some-one; or openly kill some-one in the streets and to admit the use shadow/fel magic. Death punishment being the main one for extreme cases such as murder and using fel/shadow magics and branding for pettier crimes with a mark on the back of the hand or the head.

Do remember that simply being a known fel/shadow user is not illegal in current WoW lore. Warlocks and Death Knights are openly allowed to serve and use their arts in defense of the Alliance in contested regions. It only becomes an issue when they use those powers in the middle of the city (especially if it is toward ill ends), and even then it can be allowed if you have permission from the authorities (according to our SW laws).

That's one thing people need to keep in mind... it's fine to demand harsher punishments for things, but you have to remember that just because you personally think something deserves a harsher punishment, doesn't mean that such a punishment is actually appropriate in game/server lore, or even realistically appropriate. Punishing people with death is not a common thing... afterall, even RL, many crimes that have 'death' listed as a likely punishment do not actually end in the death penalty. For example, in the US, deserting the military in a time of war is grounds for execution--yet in the 20th century we only ever executed one person out of thousands for it (and that was only to set an example).

What needs to happen is for people to drop the OOC 'you can't kill me!' consent crap. Not that people need to start implementing 'harsher penalties'. And even if you did implement harsher penalties, those should first be stuff like (lengthy) prison sentences and exile, with death only being an absolute last resort when nothing else works. Death should not ignored, but nor should it be treated lightly. People should not refuse death if it is the only realistic outcome of a situation, but nor should killing people be encouraged as a common response to problems (for both villains and heroes).

by **Dorothee/Duvaineth** Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:50 pm

Oh oh oh I need to say this...the first day I ever rped in my life I broke a law...Then I asked the guards in wisper to execute my toon..I find it epic and real for a toon to be executed, and to make it epic and public, I got the chance to be beheaded in old town by the water fountain. ( me being new didnt know my toon couldnt come back to life by a spirit healer like game mechanics does hahahaha so samian pardoned me and erased it as it never ever happened, when lex explained to me what I had done to my new toon Razz

)

But yes I personaley agree totaley and I expect those who rp in my guild to accept their toons fate. Im gonna say this here and in guild. Wardens if you break a law in any city and logic/laws/rp etc leads and says you would be punished by death, then I as your guild founder advise strongley accept the punishment of death. This guild is as realistic as we can make it, by not accepting ic realitty you make it fake. We wardens shouldnt mix ooc on ic even when the death penealtey shows up in our stories.

To those whos toons are evil or break laws and wouldnt allow their toons to be punished by death, I as your founder of guild disaprove and find it bad rp. Accept ic as ic and accept the fate of your toons. As you have noticed I have lost many toons..for lame reasons, but situations where ic my toon would of logicalley died, so I alloed my toons to die. Most would ooc say: no I dont allow you to kill my toon. I say this is rp anything can happen. Please Keep it real not fake.

by **Axio** Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:17 pm

My characters have always died on my own terms and they will continue to do so. There is -always- a possibility of evading death, provided you look hard/be creative enough. That being said, I don't throw them in harms way very often (anymore).

I keep in memory who my characters have harmed in any manner, and when it's time for them to die, I get in contact with these people and ask if they wish to have an opportunity for their characters to 'get revenge' and then we plan a plot around it. I don't really care how constructed it sounds, it has thus far always provided for good RP to involved parties.

The 'killer' should also be flexible, as a baddie player too often have I seen bloodthirsty good guys never give bargaining a chance. And vice versa. Who knows what the one facing imminent death has to offer in exchange for his measly life?

by **Aadaria-Ioanna** Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:35 pm

Its quite simple really.. Some people will not take it serious and keep making other people miserable, bring bad rep to -your guild- for them repeaditly doing this.. And they wont learn if they know they will have a "home" still anyways... Be harsh to those who repeats their mistakes. <------ NOTICE THE WORD REPEAT: Yes, I know I will have pokes of being harsh here and this is NOT about new roleplayers or those who gets their first times of guidance.. This is about those who "cheat" and -dont improve-.

I am quoting this here for a reason.. As an example to be used now:

JP: I dont think I have ever. ever seen any situation even about to excalate into a situation where I would have wanted you dead Very Happy

And you are definiftly not one fitting the "repeditive on going cheating death, because I cant die" syndrom..

So keep that in mind people, this isnt for people like JP... But for people such as this:

Warlock walks into the Blade, begins an argument, gets thrown out, walks back in, uses fel on a lot of people...
Warlock walks into the Blade the coming day, guards are shouted for, they arrive, warlock uses fel magic on blades and guards..

Warlock escapes jail.
Warlock attacks guards.
Warlock is supposed to be killed, but changes his mind.
Warlock is known for harming innocent people, using fel to harm his fellow alliance in public. Warlock also runs around screaming that being a warlock is not evil, this warlock is nice..

Now.. This is a good example of an on going escalating still not dead warlock, who despite trials, on going other attacks, being out numbered constantly putting walorcks ass in trouble... Does not die, because warlock does not want to ^^

This is the best actual example I can come up with for the huge difference of people such as you JP ^^ Who doesnt seek death.. And those who ask for it everytime they log on Very Happy

by **Samian/Bismack** Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:47 pm

This thread makes me very happy, things can always be arranged if people dont want their chars killed/executed/murdered we for one will never execute someone without their consent

That said if we come up with an alternative punishment such as working in mines far off or being stuffed into the Stockades you are expected to OOCly stick to that punishment rather then just escape the next day

by **Sabien** Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:57 pm

A question?

A while ago now the guild I was in had started some RP, I asked in guild chat was i too late to join in and was told yes. So a little disappointed maybe I shrugged my shoulders metaphorically and went off on my own. I found my own RP a little later and was quite happily enjoying it when some people who had said they didnt want me in their earlier RP, gatecrashed mine, had me arrested etc etc...
despite my protestations that I was not involved in their storyline and did not wish to be, the whole "traitor..Belf Lover..cultist" thing went on and on, finally excluding me IC from everything they did. I left the guild yet it still followed me, and since then my character has been left with that reputation.

Surely thats taking IC consequences a bit too far? Surely the RP "victim" has to be a willing part of the said RP?

by **Demurral** Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:05 pm

I fully agree with this, and have the same rule on all my characters - if I'm caught doing a crime that deserves death, then do it after a trial.

by **Salketh** Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:20 pm

In my current storyline in my elf, dubbed the 'house' plotline, there have been countless murders. However, neither my elf has been caught and only two of the others involved (I change the name on MRp for the sake or the storyline) have been killed. This is simply because ic'ly the regiment know nothing about the house. However as the storyline progress's, and when they work out ic that it's my elf in the regiment all along, then calyndi's fate will be in the hands of the others, as have these other elves I've created.

That's how it works /shrug

by **Amaryl** Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:33 pm

Seems to be right on time, to have this topic again.

by **Kittrina** Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:43 pm

Amaryl wrote:Seems to be right on time, to have this topic again.

To our Alliance and their guild leaders. An encouragment. [DO LOCK THREAD PLEASE. ] - Page 2 Meme10

by **Frostfeather** Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:56 pm

I don't know. I have thought about this extensively in the past where I was daily patrolling the streets of Darnassus.

I basically think that you are threading on thin ice when you try to control other things than your character. Due to human nature it can't work in the long run. Somebody with another lore interpretation than yours will come along and then you are back having this discussion again. And again. And again.

Because we can't really claim that SW for instance is in 100% control by the guards. As I see it, there are enough shady characters, poverty and rebellions to make the view that criminal gangs are a influential part of SW, a valid lore interpretation.

If you are dead set on playing a guard you will have to be prepared to God-emoted to death quite a few times. It just can't be avoided as I see it. And probably the same if you are playing a villain. To me this is where the beauty of this RP lies as well, it can go either way, either be insanely good or disaster. It is essentially the PUGs of RP. If you want total control you have to hire extras to play the opposing side.

by **Lexgrad** Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:40 pm

The "guards everywere man" RP is wrong too. If you blanket SW like that nothing can happen. Im sure there are police everywere in new york but shit still happens. It is more important to keep things ballanced for both sides, ie do your evil on a tight timetable for example. And pick good locations ie not the Keep.

by **Sohan** Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:02 pm

Lexgrad wrote:The "guards everywere man" RP is wrong too. If you blanket SW like that nothing can happen. Im sure there are police everywere in new york but shit still happens. It is more important to keep things ballanced for both sides, ie do your evil on a tight timetable for example. And pick good locations ie not the Keep.

Well, there are guards, or as you put in polices, almost everywhere. But they're not in every little corner or alley of the city at all times. There's always somewhere where they can't be, therefore people can go with the "They could not see us at the current time". But (again) if one is doing something in the middle of the street, or for instance, in the Cathedral Square in broad daylight and then go "The guards can't be everywhere". That, my friends, is wrong! Wrong! Wrong! *Stomping angrily with his left foot on each of the Wrong words.*

by **Seranita** Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:40 am

Lorainne/Bridlington wrote:Last night, I found myself in the situation were Bridlington was walking from Old Town to the Mage Quarters, where suddenly the emote "-throws an axe at Bridlington's back." appeared on my screen.
Was I wrong to reply "-ignores the emote on the grounds that the player would rather not experience character death at the hands of an unrational, unthoughtful, overpowering move."?

If I am to be honest.. doing this here makes you equally as bad rp'er as the chap that emoted this to to you... take for example.. braiden.. now nearly all the toons I have ever rp'ed on have hated him for one reason or another.. it would be quite easy for me to hand a single gold coin to a beggar to kill this man,.. and when it came down to it.. hypothetically braiden would receive the following /e trows an axe at braiden's back trying to kill him, now to braiden, he would receive this message and do what you did and go "wtf umm noo..." not knowing the reasons behind it he has discounted rp weather it has a legitimate reason or not..
when such an emote is done.. you ooc should not know why or else it would be meta gaming unless you are braiden then he knows any and every criminal in sw wants his head on a block..

as such even if you can see no reason for an attempted murder.. simply dissregarding it and ignoring it makes for poor and elitist rp thus making you as bad as them

(edit) ps in this situation I always use my toons quirks to my advantage.. take this exact emote you got lorrane

"-throws an axe at Monrena's back." reply /e monny would accidently trip on cobble and fall over.. the axe sailing over her head.. she groans and turns over seeing the angry man and tries to run"

"-throws an axe at Shentin's back." Reply /e shentin would feel a thud as sumthing buries itself in her back.. she looks around seeing the angry human beffor wrenching the now maggot coated axe from her back beffor tossing it into the cannal

as such know your own toon.. there is always a way to "accidently" avoid these meta kill shots whilst keeping it ic and in such a way you dont ignore the attackers emote.. this way its a win win and everybody is happy (edit)

Drustai wrote:What needs to happen is for people to drop the OOC 'you can't kill me!' consent crap. Not that people need to start implementing 'harsher penalties'. And even if you did implement harsher penalties, those should first be stuff like (lengthy) prison sentences and exile, with death only being an absolute last resort when nothing else works. Death should not ignored, but nor should it be treated lightly. People should not refuse death if it is the only realistic outcome of a situation, but nor should killing people be encouraged as a common response to problems (for both villains and heroes).

hmm this I do fully agree with.. I have been to many "trials" official and unnoficial.. on many many occasions I have seen what one would call "extreem" action taken for first time offences, one of which lead to a death penalty which did indeed ruin the rp for that person and thus mine indirectly for quite some time and still affects my toon to some point up to this day Ic.. I do agree that the harshest punishments allowed are dished out far to often and to easy.. for example cutting hands off for a first time offence of a mid level crime will not lead to rehapilitation and will only lead to repeated offences further down the line due to ic revenge.. if you get what I mean

As for me on my toons.. I have by large always been a law follower.. even my dk shentin follows the laws simply because it is "logical" to do so.. thow yes my toons are killable I do not want it to happen.. and it has happend in the past on three occations

by **Sabien** Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:30 am

This thread has raised from very interesting points and shown a lot of peoples different perceptions on what makes "good" or "bad" RP. I've enjoyed and learned from it.
I would like to query a point though if I may.
By who's standards are you judging "good" or "bad" RP? There isn't, as far as Im aware, a recognised benchmark for "good" RP.
I appreciate the common factors, like totally disregarding lore would be "bad" and power RP is at its best bloody annoying.
It seems to me from some of these posts that "bad" RP is any RP that doesn't conform to what the the posters ideas of "good" or that the "bad" RP, doesn't play into their hands.
The beauty of lore is its open to interpretation, there to be used as a prop for RP, theres nothing wrong with a character "knowing" an NPC for instance.
Also if someone does a silly emote back in response to "having an axe thrown at their back" then I think thats fine too. Its a good way of saying politely "piss off mate I can't be assed" without starting any ooc grief.
Personall if I get any whispers saying "you cant come in here it's the command centre" (which incidently it isn't, if we're lore policing, the command centre is the building further up from SI:7 HQ) then its just a silent "welcome to my ignore list" and I will go and buy my poisons.

But, I digress I was merely curious as to who sets the standards for RP?

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