City Laws, Alliance

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:The purpose of a Warlock is to be evil! To become a Warlock you have to be evil. Making deals with the Burning Legion means you have to be evil. You can't use Demons for good, that's not their purpose.

Demons are destructive and chaotic beings. Like fire.

They can be used for good, very easily so - but by their very nature they attempt to corrupt those who use them for good into becoming evil.

To be honest I don't really understand why people actively go out and make warlocks and shadow-using characters and want to be able to casually chill with their imp out round by the Lamb or whatever....even the Lamb, those characters are well hidden away in a secret basement.

It just seems like trying to whitewash out the very thing that makes playing a user of 'dark arts' everything it should be, secrecy, paranoia, underground meetings.

I mean this is purely my own opinion and I understand people feeling maybe, too borne down on/smushed by 'the good guys' but if you want to play a slightly shady magic user and be open about it...roll a mage! Why insist the entire server change to accomodate your desire for an 'out and proud' lock?

Kittrina wrote:To be honest I don't really understand why people actively go out and make warlocks and shadow-using characters and want to be able to casually chill with their imp out round by the Lamb or whatever....even the Lamb, those characters are well hidden away in a secret basement.

It just seems like trying to whitewash out the very thing that makes playing a user of 'dark arts' everything it should be, secrecy, paranoia, underground meetings.

I mean this is purely my own opinion and I understand people feeling maybe, too borne down on/smushed by 'the good guys' but if you want to play a slightly shady magic user and be open about it...roll a mage! Why insist the entire server change to accomodate your desire for an 'out and proud' lock?

Seems perfectly balanced and well thought out to me right there tbh i mean you could roll a mage who has an interest in the more shady sides of magic IC'ly explaining he is studying it to better combat the dark arts though he is using it for his own selfish gain their is really many possibilities you can go with a mage in relation to magic.

I see no problems with the city laws in Stormwind they're already well balanced with some OOC thought in mind towards the darker sort this is just people with OOC agenda's well at least some with an OOC agenda not all. And those who just want their characters blatantly accepted it doesn't enhance roleplay nor make it something exciting and thrilling.

Work with and around the current laws use some form of creativity perhaps?

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:The purpose of a Warlock is to be evil! To become a Warlock you have to be evil. Making deals with the Burning Legion means you have to be evil. You can't use Demons for good, that's not their purpose. That is what we are arguing. We aren't restricting any RP, people are free to rp hidden Warlocks. Why do they want to be open..

Because if I served you the same darn cake again and again, would you not be fed up? There is such a thing as a compromise, I have nothing against lynching a warlock if he/she walks around with a demon hand in hand. Metzen even said that himself. That walking around with a demon would ofcourse be illegal. This is not a question about chocolate or vanilla, we can have a bit of all flavours.

Old quest wrote:By retrieving my choker and besting Surena, you've proven that you're at least as capable as she was. With that said, I can tell you're direly in need of training. You can manage the flows of magic, yes, but being a warlock is much more than that. I will show you how to command a voidwalker, but before I can, you must call one forth at a summoning circle and subdue it using whatever weapons--physical and magical--you have at your disposal. Use the magic of this choker at the summoning circle below.

This quest text is taken from the old warlock quest where you subdue the voidwalker. You don't strike a pact with the legion, you subdue the demon and force it's will. Why else would it attack other demons? The only demon to my knowledge that is summoned and is helping you willingly is indeed the observer, which serves you in exchange for tasting new magics i believe if my memory is a total mess.

Adry wrote:

Amaryl wrote:No no no, the option is to not roleplay with the council, but roleplay in stormwind. Nobody can force you to do anything you don't want to. its exactly the same as ignoring power-emoters/lollers/oocers.

It's not the same at all as ignoring power-emotes/lollers/oocers when the council's ruling is hanging over the head of every guild in Stormwind and even beyond.

Coupled with this and I can only speak for myself here, I mainly like the members of the council, I like roleplaying with them I like roleplaying with guilds affiliated with them. I just strongly dislike one very specific set of things that they do.

Adry wrote:

Amaryl wrote:No no no, the option is to not roleplay with the council, but roleplay in stormwind. Nobody can force you to do anything you don't want to. its exactly the same as ignoring power-emoters/lollers/oocers.

It's not the same at all as ignoring power-emotes/lollers/oocers when the council's ruling is hanging over the head of every guild in Stormwind and even beyond.

It isn't, don't kid yourself. What's the council going to do? not rp with you anymore?

Again, If you want to RP with the council, that is fine. but don't delude yourself that your opinion will do anything to change things. If you don't believe me, read the past four years of threads that i've posted.

Charlie Blazesong wrote:

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:The purpose of a Warlock is to be evil! To become a Warlock you have to be evil. Making deals with the Burning Legion means you have to be evil. You can't use Demons for good, that's not their purpose. That is what we are arguing. We aren't restricting any RP, people are free to rp hidden Warlocks. Why do they want to be open..

Because if I served you the same darn cake again and again, would you not be fed up? There is such a thing as a compromise, I have nothing against lynching a warlock if he/she walks around with a demon hand in hand. Metzen even said that himself. That walking around with a demon would ofcourse be illegal. This is not a question about chocolate or vanilla, we can have a bit of all flavours.

This is not about "flavours". This is about lore; good and evil. Kittrina said everything perfectly. Stop trying to muddy the water of rp.

Amaryl wrote:

Adry wrote:

Amaryl wrote:No no no, the option is to not roleplay with the council, but roleplay in stormwind. Nobody can force you to do anything you don't want to. its exactly the same as ignoring power-emoters/lollers/oocers.

It's not the same at all as ignoring power-emotes/lollers/oocers when the council's ruling is hanging over the head of every guild in Stormwind and even beyond.

It isn't, don't kid yourself. What's the council going to do? not rp with you anymore?

Again, If you want to RP with the council, that is fine. but don't delude yourself that your opinion will do anything to change things.

What Amaryl says is perfectly true though that is thanks to Amaryl being one of the older Roleplayers of this server he at least remembers that the council advocated an action that not every Roleplayer is bound to do the councils bidding it is your decision if you are going to deal with the council at all.

Note: I have always enjoyed roleplaying with the council, even though I believe it shouldn't exist.

There are two kinds of guilds/groups/people that don't interact with the council:

The kind that screams fire and hell and claims the councils are fucking elitists forcing their RP on everyone else and are vehemently trying to oppose them. (this is never a good thing)

The second is the group that lets the council do its thing and do their own thing right next to the council's things, having absolutely no problems with each other and are able to co-exist for years and even participate in the same noncouncil events.

Amaryl wrote:Note: I have always enjoyed roleplaying with the council, even though I believe it shouldn't exist.

There are two kinds of guilds/groups/people that don't interact with the council:

The kind that screams fire and hell and claims the councils are fucking elitists forcing their RP on everyone else and are vehemently trying to oppose them. (this is never a good thing)

The second is the group that lets the council do its thing and do their own thing right next to the council's things, having absolutely no problems with each other and are able to co-exist for years and even participate in the same noncouncil events.

By jove Amaryl are you per chance a sorceror cus you just said some enchanting words!

I don't trust every game mechanic like everyone teaching you everything just because, some things you have to take with a grain of salt. Players do things their own ways a lot too.

We've seen DKs played as scourge to this day because people love to play them as evil or super bad and walk around SW. Scarlets walk about being zealous as can be (And i wouldn't see all of them say I'm a emissary!). I don't see much left of the renegades and even those seemed to go crazy so it's up to the person, but last checked no one likes a scarlet having his tabard out and whatnot.

Also i'll quote this on council as i see it pretty much the same:

Coupled with this and I can only speak for myself here, I mainly like the members of the council, I like roleplaying with them I like roleplaying with guilds affiliated with them. I just strongly dislike one very specific set of things that they do.

Rping with people on the council, and rping with the council are two seperate things. Or atleast it was until last year. I'm not sure how the post drustai/braiden council operates, but I doubt it's radically different from the past 9 years of council iterations.

The council has only JUST changed to guild leaders. It's going through some trial and error although it is only Erwtenpellar demanding the exempt rules. Some of Rihani's laws still apply, that a Warlock/Shadow priest should only be arrested IF they are using their magic irresponsibly. (Just look at the laws in the council thread) So I don't understand what all this post-spamming is about.

Wulf you've been long enough on this server to understand what post spamming is all about.

This server has it fair share of problems, restricting roleplay, to few roleplayers and elitists. I am fixated on fixing as many problems I can, but to do that I need people that are open for ideas and listens to the new guys! A lot of people here however refuses to learn from the young because they -think- they know the best because they have roleplayed the longest!

I'm not saying I'm right in everything, infact I'm wrong in many things and you have to sometimes read behind the lines in order to understand what I'm even talking about!

So please, for the love of roleplay stop drinking you noble vine and listen on the ideas that people are giving!

I fon't want to get into this debate because I don't really have a side, but think about this: What would the view of the restrictions be ICly? Why did our characters enforced these laws?

Because other characters have used these things, be it dark arts, neceomancy or Scarlet cultism, to spead terror, crime and evil. If the city has been ridden by far more "evil" warlocks/DKs/Scarlets then they would, ofcorse, put restrictions on them, view them as suspects and make them illegal as "their kind" have done much damage in the past. From an IC perspective, I think that most restrictions are legit.

I think its over done, we have to think on this both IC and OOC, these restriction limits roleplay for many. I think that they should be allowed in the city, yet practice of that kind of magic will be looked down upon by others and frown upon. It is something that should be allowed yet hated by the people, you can't say that warlocks and shadow magic hasn't been useful in the wars, because it has.

Personally I go all out with my suggestion to allow it to only a certain people that has proven themselves worthy, its like the driver license, except that you can't pay for it. This would allow warlocks into society, however the citizens doesn't have to like it.

To get one of these licenses you have to have a clean record and (Insert more), if you have all these things you are allowed to use Fel magic. The cool thing is that the regiment can still be cruel, same with the citizens against the Warlocks and they just have to live with it, because if they take one single step wrong they can be arrested.

Imagine the 1700-1990, just instead of black people we have Warlocks.
Hope I wrote this understand able, I have a tendency of being difficult to understand.

Thorvald wrote:This would allow warlocks into society, however the citizens doesn't have to like it.

This is a good idea because it would provide more RP, rather than restrict RP, which is what we're all aiming for, no?

Being a warlock in the city shouldn't be illegal - but having your demons out or performing fel magic should. Well, it not only should, it sort of is.

There's a source from Metzen outright stating that Warlocks shouldn't be walking around with demons out in the city, it's common sense. And there was a Warlock quest where you had to kill a nobleman before he revealed what was going on in the Slaughtered Lamb.

Shadow magic is a confusing subject and I think there are two types of shadow magic. Divine Shadow, the opposite to Light magic, usually evil people use it because it looks cool - AKA the Archbishop, but it isn't the same corruptive magic as say, 'Shadowbolt' by a Warlock. The latter should really be called 'Darkbolt' because I think the only reason they've used the word shadow is because it's a cliché term for something enigmatic and evil.


I can find the sources if need be, but I really cba. Please take my word on the Metzen thing so I don't have to go on google.

It was said during a Blizzcon Q&A vid. I have seen it.

Thorvald wrote:Imagine the 1700-1990, just instead of black people we have Warlocks.
Hope I wrote this understand able, I have a tendency of being difficult to understand.

Except, you know... Black people was taken into slavery, kept as slaves and oppressed by society because they were seen as a lesser race and that they were unable to "hide or change" their race, were warlocks chose their powers based on their own decission, they can melt into society without using/showing them (or stop alltogether) and, ofcourse, their alligence are based in the most evil of power driven organizations.

You can't really draw a race likeness here. If anything, view them to the likes of how we view neo nazis today or something...

An even better example Hel-mut, thank you.

Vaell wrote:Shadow magic is a confusing subject and I think there are two types of shadow magic. Divine Shadow, the opposite to Light magic, usually evil people use it because it looks cool - AKA the Archbishop, but it isn't the same corruptive magic as say, 'Shadowbolt' by a Warlock.

Divine Shadow is likely also corrupting, as it is derived from inherently selfish emotions and desires and likely serves to enhance them - the Sha are most likely creatures of Divine Shadow rather than, say, Void or Fel Shadow.

Helmut wrote:

Thorvald wrote:Imagine the 1700-1990, just instead of black people we have Warlocks.

Except, you know... Black people was taken into slavery, kept as slaves and oppressed by society because they were seen as a lesser race and that they were unable to "hide or change" their race, were warlocks chose their powers based on their own decission

I don't think he meant the oppression of blacks by white europeans/americans was equivalent to the oppression of Shadow-users by the Alliance in terms of morality or practicality, but simply that for a free black man, it took very little to get yourself branded as a criminal due to prejudice and poor legal protection - the same would apply to Warlocks in his proposal.

Helmut wrote:

Thorvald wrote:Imagine the 1700-1990, just instead of black people we have Warlocks.

Except, you know... Black people was taken into slavery, kept as slaves and oppressed by society because they were seen as a lesser race and that they were unable to "hide or change" their race, were warlocks chose their powers based on their own decission

I don't think he meant the oppression of blacks by white europeans/americans was equivalent to the oppression of Shadow-users by the Alliance in terms of morality or practicality, but simply that for a free black man, it took very little to get yourself branded as a criminal due to prejudice and poor legal protection - the same would apply to Warlocks in his proposal.[/quote]

Thank you both, they are good examples and both fit well in what I mean.

So after too many years, white people (most of them) realized that black people were not a lesser race and equality started to happened. But its not how warlocks are. They are using the same means and methods as a world dominating, super evil legion use, till this day, to try to destroy and enslave the world. We KNOW that the power they use are in almost all cases used for evil.