City Laws, Alliance

My main problems with the whole "hide yourself, go underground" solution to warlocking in the main hubs are:

1. There is no organized "underground" community to join except every 2nd friday (and 14-day intervals for RP is... no I won't get into that).

2. SW isn't blessed with sewer systems like Dalaran's for its unwanted children to seek refuge in.

3. Lorewise ok metagaming: You know, righteous paladins sensing your tainted mind despite your efforts to blend into community.

4. Other metagaming: We all have class tags over our heads. It affects how people percieve us and act around us. It is too normal for reasonable people to get awkwardly suspicious once they see purpe class colours.

5. It's not newbie-friendly. Referring a guy who just wants to get into RP playing his ends-justifies-the-means warlock anti-hero character to page-long city laws to see how his character's existence is a crime, then throwing him into custody is not the way to make new people feel at home.

6. I don't think any council should have the power to outlaw groups of people pre-emptively. Nothing good has ever come from that, and god knows, we've tried it, time and time over.

7. Like seriously, don't limit people's RP until they're actually hurting people/defiling lightwells/summoning the legion onto their porch. Give fair warnings, both IC and OOC. It takes very little to make the community a little more friendly.

Something that can sum up almost all your points there:

If you want something done, do it yourself instead of waiting for others to do so!

You wants a secret society? Start one! Go public about it on forums. Keep it active and growing.

You need an underground/hidden place to RP at in SW? Go find a place where people don't hang out (Slaughtered Lamb?)

People sensing your shadow? Hide it better, take the fight and debate OOCly if needed. Just TRY..!

And for the law.. Can you please see it from an IC perspective? That your characters don't know the things you know. They are scared, ignorant and total asshats because it would suck if everyone was happy, understanding and accepting. And if you want their minds changed, then GO CHANGE THEM instead of complain on the forums.

The catacombs underneath the Slaughtered Lamb are just fine for a secret underground coven. Not to mention all the nooks and crannies where you can hide out in Duskwood, Westfall, and even Elwynn Forest - and that's without leaving the Kingdom of Stormwind.

Also, if someone meta-games to sense your evilness, you can always deny it IC and there's not much they can do about that.

If it's something like a Demon Hunter, another Warlock with a Felhound, or a dedicated Mage Hunter, you should probably have a good cover IC because these are confirmed in the lore to detect demonic magic. There's always ways to hide, but on the other hand if every secret warlock has a perfectly impenetrable cover, where's the fun in it?

I agree with Helmut, it's something you can debate OOC to create RP, rather than restrict it.

Personally I find the notion that laws against Warlocks "restrict" RP to be lazy and shallow.

Helmut wrote:
People sensing your shadow? Hide it better, take the fight and debate OOCly if needed. Just TRY..!

If I had a piece of gold for every-time some-one whispered me "This characer has a strong Shadow/fel aura/corruption, you can probably sense it"...well I'd be able to afford the Spectral Tiger for all of DoL.

Their are plenty of Warlock characters who have avoided prosecution. Galhalla for one, who managed to get into DoL even though she was a Warlock. If you can't handle getting your ass kicked because your waving your demons around then perhaps you shouldn't be playing such a controversial class. Like Ralegh mentioned, the guards all have different opinions on it. The Regiment are more relaxed, the shields are strict but some-what tolerant and Disciples are zero tolerance. You just have to be smart about it.

Elder Fabulous Approves

Either allow shadow/fel and all its siblings for everyone to use, or have a blanket ban as is. A permit system is probably the worst option, considering that it dilutes the appeal of the darker classes, as well as encourages circle-jerking. Not to mention, isn't getting a permit very dependent on the Council? Where the Council centric aspect of these laws were the original complaints to begin with?

And well, the Council is a shitstorm of a discussion reserved for another time.

Create a new mage guild for this, its a simple task.. We actually should get one, don't think we have one from the kirin'tor which is strange considering this is Defias Brotherhood.

Thorvald wrote:Create a new mage guild for this, its a simple task.. We actually should get one, don't think we have one from the kirin'tor which is strange considering this is Defias Brotherhood.

Problem is, "this" is up in the air. While necromancers, fel users and shadow priests might be able to unite under a charismatic leader and his/her goals, they'd need something more than just "we're like, illegal mages, and then we do magic anyway" or it'd be a waste of time. They'd need a good reason to exist as a group.

And uhm... aren't those groups prime material for the Black Hand, by the way?

. . . *Yell* FERAL!

Well, the Ordo Arcana should be getting enemies all the time considering their ban and potential persecution of warlocks. So, if there is any logic to this, there should be powerful forces amidst these Groups seeking to hunt down and destroy the order. If anyone wants to create a representative Group or gather some already existing faction: TOTAL MAGE WAR FOR THE WIN!!!!   

[poster] the douche magician's order wants YOU! for an enemy (and cannot be bothered with actually making that so!)

Can the different stormwind council members confirm for me that the laws in this thread as updated by crusaderellie are the actual laws of stormwind?

It would be more fun to have more warlock meets possibly or somesort. The underforge is a black market in the end but it's a general thing it's hardly just for your warlocks and magic users and whatever.

Might try to RP my own lock more then just there though SW surely won't be a place to do it, well least direct things, though might try using the Lamb a bit more!

As a Council member, yes I do Believe that the laws of Stormwind updated by crusaderellie are the correct law edition. That is if the other council members haven't done stuff behind my back   (In that case: Elder Fabulous is not amused...)

Amaryl wrote:Can the different stormwind council members confirm for me that the laws in this thread as updated by crusaderellie are the actual laws of stormwind?

I have no idea who CrusaderElly is and whether she is actually on the council?    

Its Averin

Right then, considering the laws were updated last Thursday 27th (i.e look at ledgic's announcement on page 3); Permits still exist, and we can put this entire discussion to bed until such a time as the council as a whole, decides to update the shit again.

It is just completely confusing when people are saying that permits no longer exist(wulf) while the updated laws clearly state they still do(CrusaderElly aka Averin).

and as such one things has become ridiculously clear for the council to do. Start making fucking announcements when you change something. instead of just assuming that the discussions that are had between the council/at council is clearly communicated to the ~50 or so people that represent the SW Rp community. Because otherwise as we've seen in this thread it just disseminates into a bad game of telephone and he/she said.

Thelos wrote:

Burgen wrote:

Thelos wrote:

siegmund wrote:

But priests are the pillars of faith and guidence, if you local priest starts preaching about balance and shadow then the light as a main thing it's quite something same goes for using actual visible darkness.

I'm not sure about human priests, but draenei priests already sort of do that; I don't know the exact quote, but the priest trainers greet you with something akin to 'In the Light, we all cast shadows', or something of the like.

That doesn't necessarily mean what you claim it could mean that their is darkness where their is light it doesn't necessarily mean that they go about using it that is just people clutching at straws for what they WANT not what it actually could be.

And I don't see how the opposite necessarily has to be true, either.

Exactly who is it that is grasping at straws here?

For a change I'd actually like people to accept that there are multiple acceptable interpetations of the lore. I think the greatest error people tend to make is to assume that there can only be the one truth - usually their own. How about we just accept that everybody is allowed their own opinion and we discuss our differences in character? I'll soon be playing a priest again, and I will be happy to discuss these matters IC should the occasion arise.

I thought you hated serverlore Thelos?

Amaryl wrote:Right then, considering the laws were updated last Thursday 27th (i.e look at ledgic's announcement on page 3); Permits still exist, and we can put this entire discussion to bed until such a time as the council as a whole, decides to update the shit again.

It is just completely confusing when people are saying that permits no longer exist(wulf) while the updated laws clearly state they still do(CrusaderElly aka Averin).

and as such one things has become ridiculously clear for the council to do. Start making fucking announcements when you change something. instead of just assuming that the discussions that are had between the council/at council is clearly communicated to the ~50 or so people that represent the SW Rp community. Because otherwise as we've seen in this thread it just disseminates into a bad game of telephone and he/she said.

Hear-ye hear-ye, an end has come to the forum war finally.

Fel and Necromancy should not be performed in the city. Everyone agrees on that, right? It's just the use of Shadow and the 'being a Warlock' that shouldn't be illegal, just disliked?

Vaell wrote:Fel and Necromancy should not be performed in the city. Everyone agrees on that, right? It's just the use of Shadow and the 'being a Warlock' that shouldn't be illegal, just disliked?

More or less.

As an aside, off the top of my head beyond water-breathing and that buff I can't think of a warlock spell that isn't either overtly demon related and known to be illegal because of the Metzen Tweet or involves setting fire to people/melting people with shadow magic which should illegal for obvious reasons whether or not it's fel-derived.

Shadowflame?

siegmund wrote:Shadowflame?

Setting fire to people AND melting them with shadow magic.

Ah yeah just read that wrong, though setting people on fire is kind of a thing most people can do though, even mages.

siegmund wrote:Ah yeah just read that wrong, though setting people on fire is kind of a thing most people can do though, even mages.

Yeah, but it's not really something you'd expect to be legal anywhere bar maybe Undercity let alone Stormwind. The illegality of setting people on fire should be covered by the assault with deadly weapon/GBH/attempted murder style laws regardless of whether or not you're using fel-magic to achieve it.