City Laws, Alliance

Thorvald wrote:Also EVERYONE in the Regiment and the Blazing shield should know about this, today I was told that if I used shadow magic while fighting against worgens I would be arrested, and that was in Duskshire while fighting for my life.

While in the territory of the King of Stormwind, it isn't exactly inside Stormwind as a city...

Practicing magic within the city walls that is restricted

It would seem there would need to be done some reading up on the subject.

I have a feeling Burgen has stopped reading stuff entirely, we are not looking for acceptance, celebration and cheers. We want to follow the lore which states clearly that Warlocks are allowed within the city, they are not allowed to use shadow magic in public. The council shouldn't have anything to say against that since it is a law set up by Blizzard.

As for shadow users, this subject is just getting silly. It is clear that Shadow magic is a part of being a priest, even Wrynn used it on someone and they didn't react to it at all! Stop making shit up that has already been created and stated by blizzard! Defias Brotherhood is a place with quality roleplay were we follow the lore and rules set up by Blizzard. We are not AD!

I do think shadow magic, if used in small amounts, should be fine even though I do think Wrynn is only the exception due to him being the Luke Skywalker character. Luke used the light and dark side.

Vaell wrote:I do think shadow magic, if used in small amounts, should be fine even though I do think Wrynn is only the exception due to him being the Luke Skywalker character. Luke used the light and dark side.

This, basically.

And just ignore Burgen, everyone else does for the most part.

My main argument for why Shadow magic should be considered fairly acceptable is quite simple.
,
Priests use shadow magic. Your character follows the model of the the player character 'priest', who always knows a few shadow spells by default, even if it doesn't happen to be his speciality. The reverse is also true: if he specialized in shadow magic, he will always know a few holy spells. Both shadow and light are integral parts of the class; priests know both holy and shadow magic by default. They even used to teach shadow magic in the Cathedral of Light, when it was still necessary to learn skills at trainers. And unlike warlocks, those trainers aren't scoffed at, but are rather respected and treated with a certain reverence the clergical profession is due. Anduin Wrynn, in my opinion, isn't the exception to what a priest coul be, but the absolute paragon; the example of the best possible priest imagineable, like Thrall presumably is for shamans.

When I still role-played a priest, I tried to incorperate this into my play. When I was still playing with the Disciples, I didn't think it was possible to be both; but once I started to do my own thing it actually came quite natural and I had my priest routinely do things like read and control lesser minds. Nobody ever made a fuss out of that. I don't think I ever spouted purple tentacles and started whipping people with it on Thelos; but then again he was a Holy priest and shadow wasn't his speciality. He was relatively weak in that particular field, in no small part due to his personality, which was more suited for holy and discipline magics.

I however realise that this is an argument whose weight heavily depends on how much importance you attach to game mechanics. I attach a whole lot to it, but I respect others who don't, as long as they don't try to enforce their opinion onto mine by telling me that I am wrong. Because this 'wrong' really is a tricky thing, and we should all be careful in using it.

Priest Shadow magic is not the same thing as Fel magic (Fel is corrupted Arcane, the other is Divine Shadow) or Necromancy (which is outright stated to be banned in the lore).

It's a very important distinction to make both IC and OOC.

Thorvald wrote:I have a feeling Burgen has stopped reading stuff entirely, we are not looking for acceptance, celebration and cheers. We want to follow the lore which states clearly that Warlocks are allowed within the city, they are not allowed to use shadow magic in public. The council shouldn't have anything to say against that since it is a law set up by Blizzard.

As for shadow users, this subject is just getting silly. It is clear that Shadow magic is a part of being a priest, even Wrynn used it on someone and they didn't react to it at all! Stop making shit up that has already been created and stated by blizzard! Defias Brotherhood is a place with quality roleplay were we follow the lore and rules set up by Blizzard. We are not AD!

This post and Thelos' sum up my sentiments perfectly.

That's also why -I- don't want to take it "IC". Because I've not once felt these laws are representative of the world I role-play in.

I've been looking through all of this, especially regarding Warlocks, Necromancy, and death knights.
I can't help but think, that everyone is missing a rather simple proposal, to help with all this drama.
The Burning Legion is a group filled with demons, attempted to destroy the world. Warlocks, are simply mages who are
using the Legions magic, and the Legions troops, against itself.

Now, if we fast forward to Wrath. Death knights are accepted by the King, because he realises,
accepting them and their abilities, is using the Lich Kings own magic and soldiers, against him.

Its all simply a case, of using the enemies magic and abilities, against themselves. Accept them, use them, but that doesn't mean you can trust them.

So, with that in mind, I propose that we use both sides of the debate: Accept Warlocks, Necromancers, Death Knights, etc, but subject them to more scrutiny and prejudice than you would to a normal mage or soldier.

In the magic department, I think people are mostly talking about different things now.

Just arrest people if they do actual crimes (burning someone, breaking in, killing kittens...) and all will be fine.

Ledgic wrote:

Vaell wrote:I do think shadow magic, if used in small amounts, should be fine even though I do think Wrynn is only the exception due to him being the Luke Skywalker character. Luke used the light and dark side.

This, basically.

And just ignore Burgen, everyone else does for the most part.

My wee dwarven knickers are wringing for you.

Personally I don't see priests practicing it openly if already if they would say "pracitice" even. It's a thing they do to understand the light better or mental training or whatever they do. It's nowhere really greatly described on how priests of the holy light do it. Though the Church of light doesn't seem to keen on it's arts.

There also is probably a big diffrence between physic and physical ways of abilities priest lore and game mechanics can do both. One is purely about the mind the other about actually summoning darkness and whatnot. (Physic scream and shadow fiend respectfully)

Everybody can say OH MY GOD ANDUIN YOU USED SHADOW MAGIC, why? Becouse Mind Control mainly comes under the shadow school and it concerns the mind which is basically a thing the shadow with priests concerns.

But the character doesn't see a bolt of shadow come and slither in your head and a Word buble poping up saying "Shadow magic". And you don't really see much from a first PoV that you can say FFFS SHADOUW, let's put at the side sense RP and the fact that he actually makes a GESTURE like at any spell and doesn't just stand in place and look into his eyes without lifting a finger or blinking
(Unrelated but that's how a lot of people do it and suposedly no one can know who mind controled without using "Sense RP" which is dull OMG I SENSE UR SHADOUDAW, unless you mention it in the emote that one feels a negativity of emotins about or somesort!)

Seen a priest in lore use physic scream and so, usually mind matters. The question is though what about something more like mind flay and so on something that outright crawls up and makes your skin rot?

Are you really a priest of the Holy light if you're weaving darkness around you and not just screaming and making people run away? (save the purple floating skulls)

What's the line of what makes you still a priest following the light mainly and then a shadow priest? Would these mainly shadow wielding people that are shadow priests be accepted? Should you be preaching about balance or preaching about the light and that the other is just there but with faith in the light you'll do fine in the world?

Do you teach them the virtues of the holy light that suffering exists in the world and wars happen but one has to strive to make the world better (Virtue of respect - shadow and light if already)

Faith fules priests, in their repsective ways..

Game mechanics, a wide thing but I don't take them all in, some with a grain of salt and some with a "meh". Teaching openly is a strong word in the end.

If you spec holy you can use shadow still, if you spec shadow you can use some holy, but if you're holy you have a diffrent way of thinking and aproaching thinks even if you can use minor shadow spells then the other way around.

In short I think if a priest would meet a priest and the first would be one of the Holy light and still being to inspire negative emotions like fear and so, while the other weaving darkness and shadow, but being able to heal your foot. I'd not really see a great understanding, even balance is one something one can discuss does balance really mean 50/50 in this matter?

Would the church really accept one preaching shadow as on equal terms? Would priests of the holy light? Say that shadow is the poor bastard being oppresed by the light? That there is too much light?

Virtue of compasion maybe? But there is a diffrence between saying THEN YOU NEED MORE BAD!!! Maybe you just need to be careful how you apply good, not that you need DARK to balance it.

Domovoi wrote:I've been looking through all of this, especially regarding Warlocks, Necromancy, and death knights.
I can't help but think, that everyone is missing a rather simple proposal, to help with all this drama.
The Burning Legion is a group filled with demons, attempted to destroy the world. Warlocks, are simply mages who are
using the Legions magic, and the Legions troops, against itself.

Now, if we fast forward to Wrath. Death knights are accepted by the King, because he realises,
accepting them and their abilities, is using the Lich Kings own magic and soldiers, against him.

Its all simply a case, of using the enemies magic and abilities, against themselves. Accept them, use them, but that doesn't mean you can trust them.

So, with that in mind, I propose that we use both sides of the debate: Accept Warlocks, Necromancers, Death Knights, etc, but subject them to more scrutiny and prejudice than you would to a normal mage or soldier.

This right here is like poetry for my eyes.

Allonia_Miral wrote:
Just arrest people if they do actual crimes (burning someone, breaking in, killing kittens...) and all will be fine.

This.

Thorvald wrote:

Domovoi wrote:I've been looking through all of this, especially regarding Warlocks, Necromancy, and death knights.
I can't help but think, that everyone is missing a rather simple proposal, to help with all this drama.
The Burning Legion is a group filled with demons, attempted to destroy the world. Warlocks, are simply mages who are
using the Legions magic, and the Legions troops, against itself.

Now, if we fast forward to Wrath. Death knights are accepted by the King, because he realises,
accepting them and their abilities, is using the Lich Kings own magic and soldiers, against him.

Its all simply a case, of using the enemies magic and abilities, against themselves. Accept them, use them, but that doesn't mean you can trust them.

So, with that in mind, I propose that we use both sides of the debate: Accept Warlocks, Necromancers, Death Knights, etc, but subject them to more scrutiny and prejudice than you would to a normal mage or soldier.

This right here is like poetry for my eyes.

But there's lore that states the use of fel is pretty much illegal and summoning demon pets definitely is. The same with Ghouls. So just stick to that. Warlocks are accepted, not liked, but allowed. But if you're playing a Warlock who is subjected to abuse etc and you find wrong in that OOC, then you'd be better suited role-playing something simpler.


EDIT: Fel is a crime, Allonia

Warlocks, necromancers and death knights are strong in a few senses.

But priests are the pillars of faith and guidence, if you local priest starts preaching about balance and shadow then the light as a main thing it's quite something same goes for using actual visible darkness.

siegmund wrote:

But priests are the pillars of faith and guidence, if you local priest starts preaching about balance and shadow then the light as a main thing it's quite something same goes for using actual visible darkness.

I'm not sure about human priests, but draenei priests already sort of do that; I don't know the exact quote, but the priest trainers greet you with something akin to 'In the Light, we all cast shadows', or something of the like.

Thelos wrote:

siegmund wrote:

But priests are the pillars of faith and guidence, if you local priest starts preaching about balance and shadow then the light as a main thing it's quite something same goes for using actual visible darkness.

I'm not sure about human priests, but draenei priests already sort of do that; I don't know the exact quote, but the priest trainers greet you with something akin to 'In the Light, we all cast shadows', or something of the like.

That doesn't necessarily mean what you claim it could mean that their is darkness where their is light it doesn't necessarily mean that they go about using it that is just people clutching at straws for what they WANT not what it actually could be.

Allonia_Miral wrote:In the magic department, I think people are mostly talking about different things now.

Just arrest people if they do actual crimes (burning someone, breaking in, killing kittens...) and all will be fine.

Pretty much what the Regiment already goes for.

Ralegh wrote:

Allonia_Miral wrote:In the magic department, I think people are mostly talking about different things now.

Just arrest people if they do actual crimes (burning someone, breaking in, killing kittens...) and all will be fine.

Pretty much what the Regiment already goes for.

Good! Then you've got a fan!

Thelos wrote:

siegmund wrote:

But priests are the pillars of faith and guidence, if you local priest starts preaching about balance and shadow then the light as a main thing it's quite something same goes for using actual visible darkness.

I'm not sure about human priests, but draenei priests already sort of do that; I don't know the exact quote, but the priest trainers greet you with something akin to 'In the Light, we all cast shadows', or something of the like.

Got to understand that it might as well be a metaphore. Becouse that's a thing religions do.

In the light we all show sins, or something.

EDIT: Darkness and shadow and so on do not always mean magic.

Burgen wrote:

Thelos wrote:

siegmund wrote:

But priests are the pillars of faith and guidence, if you local priest starts preaching about balance and shadow then the light as a main thing it's quite something same goes for using actual visible darkness.

I'm not sure about human priests, but draenei priests already sort of do that; I don't know the exact quote, but the priest trainers greet you with something akin to 'In the Light, we all cast shadows', or something of the like.

That doesn't necessarily mean what you claim it could mean that their is darkness where their is light it doesn't necessarily mean that they go about using it that is just people clutching at straws for what they WANT not what it actually could be.

And I don't see how the opposite necessarily has to be true, either.

Exactly who is it that is grasping at straws here?

For a change I'd actually like people to accept that there are multiple acceptable interpetations of the lore. I think the greatest error people tend to make is to assume that there can only be the one truth - usually their own. How about we just accept that everybody is allowed their own opinion and we discuss our differences in character? I'll soon be playing a priest again, and I will be happy to discuss these matters IC should the occasion arise.

As an addendum to before: If people want to hunt others for their beliefs rather than their actual crime committed, then do so without using the council. That is perfectly fine.

Allonia_Miral wrote:As an addendum to before: If people want to hunt others for their beliefs rather than their actual crime committed, then do so without using the council. That is perfectly fine.

I'll just add this, if there is then someone who's beliefs or let's say physical features or maybe somesort (Demon hunters a warlock who has horns a tail and eh..) then exile is always a thing! Or taking away stuff.

But the guards already do that mostly, though yes if you saw a guy cast a felbolt up in Hinterlands or summon a demon, then walk around Stormwind in cassual clothes drinking ale, one will have much more luck trying to beat him up himself then going to the guards for just that fact.

This is my personal opinion concerning the subject in question:
Personally, I approve to the ban of Necromancy, Fel magic AND shadow magic that has been part of the Defias server in Stormwind law for some time now. I consider it a most interesting idea of a wide potential concerning eventful and action based RP since practicioners of these magical arts will find trouble with the authorities and must therefore hide their Powers, disguise themselves or perhaps even go underground which usually befitts the usuall stereotype of for an example Warlock Characters. I can understand why the people who are complaining about this do in fact complain about it, do not missunderstand me, you all have a Point. However, I end up siding with the people who wish to speak in favour of the IC Stormwind law. It is basicly now a part of the Community and how the actuall Community has chosen to play it out.
The ban of the "dark arts" in the defias roleplay in Stormwind are, i will admit, merely Server based lore concentrated on dedicated fanbase. However, it does have ground that is coming straight from Blizzard lore, even though that ground has been unused and thus there is the fact of doubt present, which is why we are having this debate.
My advice to anyone Reading this who has trouble with the IC laws invented with some level of ground from blizzard, however (small that ground is debatable thus argument arise) is infact to not "ignore" the rest of the Community that favour these laws by saying that it isn't "part of my own World when I RP", But to adapt to them. My recommendation is to try to deal with the matter IC instead, if your character is a warlock/Death Knight etc, and you do not IC perform any wrongdoings, please try then to maybe find a way to manipulate the law, inflitrate the government, murder the councellors, protest in general, critizise it IC. But please, do not ignore the Community that has been Always so well built and stabilized, bringing RP to a greater level than most servers. If you wish to "legalize" these things again, try to do it IC in some way, such is my advice, heed it or not. ICly, Eldiros will dissaprove of legalizing this, but OOCly I Think whatever comes out of it if my advice of chosen settlement is carried out and heeded will be some really interesting RP as a result. In short, there are no rights and wrongs detected in this argument except for suggestions of ignoring the Community (if such an argument was in fact not even presented, please correct my errors freely.)