Re: Tzeentch's Thread of Everchanging Topics

by **Seranita** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:31 pm

I enjoy this thred Sad

but this current topic.. I will go.. someone call me once this topic is done..

by **Geldar** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:31 pm

Exactly. We don't know, because there is probably no set method to deal with this problem and that is the problem itself, the lack of options for us to utilize when it actually happens. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. There isn't an effective method that could allow us to deal with the problem in a effective manner.

Actually wait, lobotomy says otherwise. Carry on!

by Guest Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:32 pm

And what happens when the parents of the bully are approached outside of school and tell you to fuck off and/or start on you themselves? Which does happen, and I've seen it happen. It's ridiculas how horrible some families are.

by **Kristeas Sunbinder** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:34 pm

Need more pictures
Tzeentch's Thread of Everchanging Topics - Page 4 Bully-security

by **Shaelyssa** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:38 pm

That has happened to me a lot too, Pertubo, but how on earth does that justify violence?

But counseling has helped a lot of bully cases, it may not be a guranteed method, but it is, at the moment I feel, the most reliable method of dealing with issues like self-esteem, attention seeking problems, peer-pressure, and whatever, that can lead to people bullying other people. And haha Geldar, yes, we should totally lobotomize them. :p They used to do something similar to prison inmates too. ;)

by **Grufftoof** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:40 pm

Chareshía wrote:then please for my sanity.. drop this subject

Yet you, and others don't either! Smile

And we all keep reading.

I didn't speak either, yet. But I think, definitely Shae has the right view here. But, well, it's all subjective isn't it. or, maybe it isn't? maybe we all work directly with children (and specifically bullying) and psychology on a daily basis?

We probably don't. So we're all saying this as we believe. And some people are saying these as "ULTIMATE TRUTH".

I think it is very damaging to use phrases like "these kind of people" or to demean someone, or their actions as being those of something "subhuman" (a rat, etc). If we do this we do, definitely, detract from the fact that the little shit (I did it myself) who was the bully, was in fact a person too. A human being. Some people here are wishing death, maiming or lasting injury on another human. Because of something they DO NOT KNOW, taking points only from snippets of information gleaned from the internets. None of us are party to the "facts", the history, anything.

The bullied kid retaliated, and snapped. It's the "snapped" part that worries. Not the fact he lashed out. The little bully deserved a slap to start with. But when you see red, truly red... Then you've lost, just like Gen said (and I'm paraphrasing, sorry).

Counselling doesn't always work. Nothing "always works". The same can be definitely said for an attack back. For the seemingly mass calls saying "it's the definite way". Who says so? You do? From personal experience for some of you (and me too, I may add). But does that make MIGHT IS RIGHT an absolute truth? Does it make it the flip side of the coin the bully himself played?

I aint a shrink, thank the gods, I don't have the answers. But neither do any of us. I know society, parenting, nature and nurture has more to answer for here. And that the root of the problem would be found there, and not in the actual punch the bully landed (or failed to).

Stop calling for the head of the stupid little shit. And show some humanity. Grow up, hopefully he will.

by Guest Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:43 pm

Counseling is voluntary. Kid gets suspened and sent to counseling? Congragulations, you made him target you specifically and you get even worse treatment. he ditches counseling anyway. Kid gets expelled? Doesn't mean shit. He'll find you, he'll do worse. So you can fight back, or wait till it gets bad enough that you can finally bring in police, like you get stabbed or something, but do you really wanna have to wait for that? Bullying isn't always just the kiddy "he took my lunch money and slapped me a few times", most are really messed up people that come from messed up families with lazy parents and probably a retarded no-job-has-been-in-jail brother or two. But maybe that's just Ireland.

Meeting violence with words isn't going to work.

by **Mandui** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:47 pm

grufftoof wrote:
Chareshía wrote:then please for my sanity.. drop this subject

Yet you, and others don't either! And we all keep reading.

I didn't speak either, yet. But I think, definitely Shae has the right view here. But, well, it's all subjective isn't it. or, maybe it isn't? maybe we all work directly with children (and specifically bullying) and psychology on a daily basis?

We probably don't. So we're all saying this as we believe. And some people are saying these as "ULTIMATE TRUTH".

I think it is very damaging to use phrases like "these kind of people" or to demean someone, or their actions as being those of something "subhuman" (a rat, etc). If we do this we do, definitely, detract from the fact that the little shit (I did it myself) who was the bully, was in fact a person too. A human being. Some people here are wishing death, maiming or lasting injury on another human. Because of something they DO NOT KNOW, taking points only from snippets of information gleaned from the internets. None of us are party to the "facts", the history, anything.

The bullied kid retaliated, and snapped. It's the "snapped" part that worries. Not the fact he lashed out. The little bully deserved a slap to start with. But when you see red, truly red... Then you've lost, just like Gen said (and I'm paraphrasing, sorry).

Counselling doesn't always work. Nothing "always works". The same can be definitely said for an attack back. For the seemingly mass calls saying "it's the definite way". Who says so? You do? From personal experience for some of you (and me too, I may add). But does that make MIGHT IS RIGHT an absolute truth? Does it make it the flip side of the coin the bully himself played?

I aint a shrink, thank the gods, I don't have the answers. But neither do any of us. I know society, parenting, nature and nurture has more to answer for here. And that the root of the problem would be found there, and not in the actual punch the bully landed (or failed to).

Stop calling for the head of the stupid little shit. And show some humanity. Grow up, hopefully he will.

TL;DR:

Mandui wrote:
It all comes down to each individual personality. Some kids respond well to talks and reasoning, others just won't. So you can't really generalize about it being the 'best' way unless you know each person's background in depth.

by **Shaelyssa** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:52 pm

And I agree with you on that, Mandui. I don't know if I came off as saying that "my way is the best way", but I honestly didn't mean to, I'm sorry. But that's not really my main like "issue" here. My main problem here is how easily the bully (and all bullies too) are being vilified and demonized.

It was a nice discussion and thank you because I really enjoy listening to other people's opinions. :]

by Guest Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:54 pm

Meh, as soon as people saw that bully in the vid they immediatly replaced his face with their bully(ies), (because yes, we all have one) and saw this are they're golden opportunity for revenge, in the form of hate messages to him. But that kid deserved a good ground slam.

by **Geldar** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:56 pm

My main problem here is how easily the bully (and all bullies too) are being vilified and demonized.

They aren't making it very hard for us to do so really. Perhaps a percentage of the whole mass of bullies do not deserve to be vilified and demonized because they are probably just misunderstood or have problems that have pushed them into lashing out to others to mask their own insecurities.

But there is a big portion of bullies or people acting like bullies only doing it because it makes them feel strong or cool and those are the ones who are truly supposed to be vilified and demonized. Just like that kid that met the concrete. You don't pick on someone 3 times your size to mask your own insecurity, you do it to feel strong and cool in the eyes of your cool friends. You do it to people who you know they won't lash out to you or do anything because they are actually good people and that makes you feel strong. But every so often, they meet the wrong person and they get some well earned punishment.

by **Ixirar** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:59 pm

Why do you think they had manhood tests and mandatory hunting of vicious and/or dangerous animals in the stone age? Because they had that urge to feel strong back then too.

Most cases, it's still that instinct, the primal instinct that puts forth a need to prove that you're worthy of your manhood.

by **Seranita** Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:04 pm

*nods*

by **Shaelyssa** Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:07 pm

But why do they have to bully people to make themselves feel powerful or cool? Why don't I bully people to make myself feel powerful or cool?

Because I don't need to feel powerful or cool. Those kind of bullies obviously have some sort of problem, be it because, like Ixirar mentioned, they want to prove their manhood, or make themselves feel powerful and in control because maybe they aren't in control of other aspects of their life. Regardless of what the reasons are, no sane person, I believe, would inflict that sort of pain on another person, knowing and understanding the full extent of their actions, for no reason whatsoever.

There is always a reason, I believe. It doesn't mean it's OK to bully people, it doesn't mean it's OK to be a criminal, but it does mean that they aren't monsters.

by Guest Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:11 pm

They don't "need" it, they just see it as an easy way to get approval. It starts the day they start school(if it is school-bullying we're talking about). Every kid going in there is scared, and that's the only way they can survive. That's how it starts, by the end they're just some messed up scum with no talent or skills with anything because they more often then not also end up wasting they're life aswell, with 4 other faggots just like him.

by **Geldar** Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:12 pm

Thats up for interpretation if they are monsters or not. If they act like monsters, they are certainly monsters. Can't deny that.

by **Seranita** Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:16 pm

it starts with one that has a problem yes,.. but thats all it takes, once there is a clear "victim" thats when you get the ones who simply see it as harmless fun join in,.. its not long beffor those ones think its ok and start enjoying it.. thats when the broblem gets out of hand

by **Muzjhath** Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:18 pm

Then there are the weak people who see that "they" might become the next one after the bullies tire after their current victim, and thus join in. Quite often these people can be some of the worst.
The best of them just look the other way, the worst join in fully and get egged in to do really horrible stuff to "prove" themselves, otherwise they'll once again be right there with the "target".

by Guest Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:18 pm

Chareshía wrote:it starts with one that has a problem yes,.. but thats all it takes, once there is a clear "victim" thats when you get the ones who simply see it as harmless fun join in,.. its not long beffor those ones think its ok and start enjoying it.. thats when the broblem gets out of hand

And they're almost as bad for joining in, seriously. One bully is bad, but when the 27 other students in the class laugh on watching it happen then that's a billion times worse.

by **Mandui** Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:24 pm

Shaelyssa wrote:But why do they have to bully people to make themselves feel powerful or cool? Why don't I bully people to make myself feel powerful or cool?

Because I don't need to feel powerful or cool. Those kind of bullies obviously have some sort of problem, be it because, like Ixirar mentioned, they want to prove their manhood, or make themselves feel powerful and in control because maybe they aren't in control of other aspects of their life. Regardless of what the reasons are, no sane person, I believe, would inflict that sort of pain on another person, knowing and understanding the full extent of their actions, for no reason whatsoever.

There is always a reason, I believe. It doesn't mean it's OK to bully people, it doesn't mean it's OK to be a criminal, but it does mean that they aren't monsters.

Ever watched 8 MM? I think you'll like the movie. There's a lot of this involved in it.

by **Unknown** Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:33 pm

by **Amaryl** Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:46 pm

You know who isn't vilified enough?

the scumbag who thought it would be funny to videotape his friend bullying some poor kid. and then decided to make fun of his friend when he got slammed to the ground.

by **Geneviève** Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:56 pm

Nathiniós wrote:
Physical punishment -is- the best method of adjustig behaviour,
It's not. If I remember my behavioral psychology correctly, rewarding good behaviour and keeping rewards away when they behave badly is the best method. If I remember right, was a few years since took that course.

And after reading the past few pages, I've come to this conclusion. Shae has very noble ideals, but is very naive about pretty much everything, and the rest of us are a bunch of cynical assholes with firsthand experiences.

Most interesting forum discussion I've read in the past few days.

Physical punishment turns chavs into soldiers, hoodies into heroes. I'll stick with tried and tested methods rather than abstract psychological studies on what I can only assume are mammals very similar to humans but NOT humans.

There have been some classic cases of 'not reading the whole post' in this thread. I'm not condoning or encouraging physical violence, but physical punishment. Square bashing, sprints, cross country, press ups infront of their peers. Stuff that will embarass and shame them, take up their time, and make them suffer physically BUT at the end of it they'll have gained something.

by **Morgeth** Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:00 pm

I seriously doubt it's just abstract psychology that points towards such things, I'd dig through the databases I have access to in an effort to find any studies that you could read, but I reckon that'd be a bit too much for a discussion like this. You can always PM me about it, if you're interested.

All in all, I don't think physical punishment is a grand solution that'll turn people into heroes. Instead I think it carries with it certain dangers that shouldn't be ignored.

by **Ixirar** Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:29 pm

Physical punishment is like every other punishment.

If you do it to smart people, they'll adapt to avoid the danger.

If you do it to strong people, they'll adapt so they can stand the pain.

If you do it to clueless morons, they'll just keep on doing their thing and get equally surprised if the fence is still electric the next time they try peeing on it.

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