Re: Tzeentch's Thread of Everchanging Topics

by **John Helsythe Amaltheria** Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:37 pm

After my previous studies and having worked on a school with children who have behaviour problems, I can't say anything else but Shaelyssa being completely correct.

Note: I'm not saying that the bully is correct. I am saying Shaelyssa is correct.

by **Mandui** Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:41 pm

Shaelyssa wrote:Genevieve, physical punishment may be the most affective way of adjusting behavior, but I definitely do not think it is the best way.

There is no universal 'best' way to handle a problematic child. I won't name any other example than myself as an 11-14 year old. I caused so much trouble that my parents didn't know wtf to do with me anymore. Talking didn't help although they both tried that at first. I eventually taught myself to ignore their "babbling" and just nodded when they began to speak about things that I was bored hearing, while already thinking about what to do next.

Don't get me wrong, both my parents are educated and intelligent people (my mother has been dealing with children every day for the past 30 years even) but their efforts just wouldn't work. You know what did? The belt. I got beaten a few times and guess what. As disturbing as it may sound it did help because I calmed down. I didn't grow to be a traumatized person nor do I hate my parents for that. They're really wonderful. I eventually came to realize how much of a rascal I've been back then, often jeopardizing my own life just for the sake of fun.

It all comes down to each individual personality. Some kids respond well to talks and reasoning, others just won't. I know this not because of articles or surveys. I know it because I've experienced it in myself and in those around me. So you can't really generalize about it being the 'best' way unless you know each person's background in depth.

by **Geldar** Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:44 pm

But these people do not react to 'talking' be it from professionals or not. They just hear white noise if that is the correct term for it when they are placed in such sessions. Fact remains is that these kind of people need to be given the full consequences of their actions, not just be dismissed as bad parenting, and by consequences I mean what they get when they encounter something far worse than they are.

Sadly, very little of those change.. and I don't see any point in saying or doing the following:

"Next time I get bullied, I'll be sure not to fight back and instead tell the bully what society has done to make him the poor man he is today."

You must always fight back, you must always stand up for yourself. To defend yourself and those around you. You must never allow such people to walk over you, no matter if some try to convince you its the better thing to do, or that you are lowering yourself to their level or that you are not contributing to the solution but to the problem.

It does not matter when your own well being is threatened or that of your child or siblings. You must -always- defend yourself, ALWAYS. I will not tell my brother to be the better man when he is bullied, or try to talk them out of it. I will tell him to stand up for himself and defend himself, and if not, I will go with him and stand up -with- him and defend him myself if I have too like I have already done. Its just a matter of principles, and my principles do not allow scum to walk over me or those close to me.

by **Shaelyssa** Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:50 pm

Mandui, I sort of agree with you with there; however, the bully, or in your case, the naughty little girl :p, should have been the one talking. The parent or authority figure, whatever, just talking at the person being counseled has very little effect.

I completely agree with you, Geldar, I don't think any should not stand up for themselves. You completely misunderstood what I've been trying to say in my past million posts though. :p

by **Nathiniós** Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:52 pm

Physical punishment -is- the best method of adjustig behaviour,

It's not. If I remember my behavioral psychology correctly, rewarding good behaviour and keeping rewards away when they behave badly is the best method. If I remember right, was a few years since took that course.

And after reading the past few pages, I've come to this conclusion. Shae has very noble ideals, but is very naive about pretty much everything, and the rest of us are a bunch of cynical assholes with firsthand experiences.

Most interesting forum discussion I've read in the past few days.

by **Mandui** Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:56 pm

Shaelyssa wrote:Mandui, I sort of agree with you with there; however, the bully, or in your case, the naughty little girl :p, should have been the one talking. The parent or authority figure, whatever, just talking at the person being counseled has very little effect.

I had nothing to say really. If anyone would ask me why I was being that unsettling (and I was asked that often) I had no better or more honest answer than "For fun". So there goes that Razz

by **Geldar** Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:57 pm

I understand very well what you are trying to say, but there is also one thing that we might be overlooking and that is the huge cultural difference, education and general morals between the places we live in. We all come from different cultures after all, you for instance are from the mid-east where people do things in a certain way and it works whilst we come from another where things are completely different and work completely different.

People might react well to things done in your country but completely different in others, so just saying, same methods do not always apply or work just like that, even when they are good and have clear intent to prevent further happenings of the variety we have been so far discussing.

In a general sense we are focusing more on how to deal with the symptoms instead of the cause, and there are many causes. Be it bad parents, society, school system. The main problem from what I see and joke aside is the fact that the group in questions, bullies that is, have a feeling of being untouchable, be it by the victims or by the system because the system is flawed. And the only way to change that is to make them face the consequences of their actions, be it as Gen' said through physical punishment (The running and exercise, not the beatings) or through other means.

And as Nath said, you have good, pure and straight forward ideals which would indeed make a difference and work in a perfect world where things go the way they should be, sadly we do not live in such a place and until we actually find that golden middle on how to deal with these things, everyone, be it person, country or system will have their own way of dealing with the problem.

by **Chase - Esou** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:03 pm

I know the highschool I work at would like to do more to prevent bullying, but they can't really do anything innovative or try doing something different because they have the bullied kids' parents breathing down their neck. Instead the school has to act rather stale just to keep their back free because the school is the parents' bitch. :/ It's a shame, really.

by **Seranita** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:03 pm

can this subject of bullying be dropped please? there is never an excuse fro bullying.. the bullies know this.. they bully willingly wether there are other factors or not... those getting bullied never had a choice about it,.. no matter the circumstance.. there is never an excuse to bully! hell even if an orphan was jellous of a kid that had parents.. if that orphan started picking on the other kid? then that kid has every right to smack him! bullies very rairly respond to a "talking" most bullies only find that funny,.. I came from a school that had a zero tolerance for bullying,.. it doesnt stop it hapening,.. they saw suspention as a good thing and only came back worse!

by **Shaelyssa** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:04 pm

@Geldar: Actually, in my case it's nothing to do with my culture. I can think for myself without having cultural values being pushed on me. In my culture, you're not meant to have a problem, and if you do have a problem, you shut up about it and don't tell anyone. I share very little of traditional Kuwaiti values (middle-eastern is too broad a term!).

Of course, bullies have to be confronted for their actions, I never disagreed with that, in fact, I've reiterated that point several times now I think; however, that alone will not fix the problem. The reasons why they are bullying have to also be addressed, because if not, maybe they will stop bullying in school, but what about when they leave school? Their self-esteem, whatever problems, will still carry on into adulthood, and the problem isn't solved: that's where I feel counseling comes into place.

by **Valerias** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:07 pm

I've been refraining from commenting so far, but what you just said, Geldar, seems pretty spot on to me. The main issue is that bullies do think they're untouchable until taught otherwise, and need some kind of consequences for their actions, whatever those consequences may be. And unfortunately the school (or whatever outside force) is not always in a position to enforce these consequences.

by **Geldar** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:08 pm

Alright, and just theoretically speaking here, what happens if counseling does not work? Whats the next step, plan B? And as for the cultural thing, I meant in a more general sense of speaking. Different school systems and so forth, make out of it what you will.

by **Seranita** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:09 pm

just give em a bloody good pounding,.. trust me on that it works

by **Shaelyssa** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:12 pm

If counseling doesn't work, Geldar, then it doesn't work. There is no harm in trying. But having an authority figure or whatever beating up the bully is not a good solution to the problem. There are so many psychological repercussions to that, and it is as equally barbaric to beat up a bully as it is for a bully to beat somebody else. Two wrongs don't make a right!!! :[

by **Ixirar** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:16 pm

When the kid I stood up for (see my previous post) tried coming back at me alone and I cracked his face open with my knee, I wasn't an authority figure. I was just a pissed off guy who was fed up with retards putting me down for the fun of it.

The kid never ever touched me again, funny isn't it? And no, I honestly don't give a shit about his feelings on the matter. He assaulted me, he get what's coming for him.

Life is blunt. Just like my knee was when it impacted his face.

by **Seranita** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:17 pm

no its not a good solution but those buggers never responded to talkes with me! its quite clear you have never been the victaim of constant harasment for years on end,.. and untill you are at eather end of the spectrum.. then you cannot realy say.. my mother on countless occations had the bullies suspended.. talked to.. counciled,..
the kids in my area were rich.. we were poor,.. they had no problems in there lives, they lived hapily and content and yet they still bullied!!
they had no reason to exept for the fun of it...!
in that situation,.. they will only ever stop upon receving a smackdown!

Ixirar wrote:When the kid I stood up for (see my previous post) tried coming back at me alone and I cracked his face open with my knee, I wasn't an authority figure. I was just a pissed off guy who was fed up with retards putting me down for the fun of it.

The kid never ever touched me again, funny isn't it? And no, I honestly don't give a shit about his feelings on the matter. He assaulted me, he get what's coming for him.

Life is blunt. Just like my knee was when it impacted his face.

exactly! my only regret is i didnt do it sooner!

by **Geldar** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:19 pm

Been there Ixi, done that. I give you a 9/10 for initiative. And Shae, we can't just say "If it doesn't work, it doesn't work." That makes the counseling a rather unreliable option in essence that it provides no solution aswell, thus making the whole suggestion flawed.

What I am trying to point out here are the alternatives, what happens if it doesn't work? What is the next step, what is the alternative that we take to try and prevent further violence?

by **Shaelyssa** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:21 pm

That's completely different though, Ixirar. Like I said a million times, I'm not talking about students retaliating: everyone should defend themselves. I'm talking about how the actual problem should be dealt with by the school to solve the cause of the problem. The act of bullying is the problem, but not the cause.

And please, Chareshia, I'm sorry that this subject bothers you, and I'm sorry that you were bullied, but don't assume you know anything about me or about my experiences.

And no Geldar, just because in the one case it doesn't work, doesn't mean counseling is bad and useless, because it is still working in all the other cases.

by **Seranita** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:22 pm

then please for my sanity.. drop this subject

by **Geldar** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:22 pm

I am speaking case specific, not the entire method as a whole. What happens when counseling does not work in that case? What is the next step or alternative that we take on to prevent further violence? Do we even have an alternative past that point, or do we just say "There is nothing to be done." and then we release the little monster back in society?

Also, Shia, subject is really good. One of the best I have seen being discussed and the discussion itself is really good. And really, if it bothers you so much, don't read it until we are done!

by Guest Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:23 pm

Or you stop reading?

Edit: @Chareshia

by **Seranita** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:25 pm

dispite the fact that this goes against the thred name we have been on the same topic for nerly 4 pages now.... *sighs* thred derailment to the max

by **Geldar** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:26 pm

Everchanging topics, you should wait for the topic to change!

by **Antistia** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:27 pm

Chareshía wrote:dispite the fact that this goes against the thred name we have been on the same topic for nerly 4 pages now.... *sighs* thred derailment to the max

Actually no, the thread can change subjects. It can change in 3 posts or in 300. The only difference between this thread and others is that it has no fixed subject, it changes over time.

by **Shaelyssa** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:28 pm

And I honestly can't think of any other step of action. Maybe the bully could be sent to a psychologist, and if he has a problem it can be diagnosed and medicated? I mean, I know how so many behavioral problems nearly always have genetic, neurological, psychological, hormonal etc factors; but honestly, I really don't know, but having the bully beaten up by his parents or teachers or whatever will not always solve the problem. I know perhaps in some cases it will, but you will never know if it will harm the person later on in life, so it should be avoided at all costs, unless maybe the situation has gotten so out of hand or whatever.

While on the other hand, counseling, I don't think, is going to cause any harm to the persons involved. So even if it doesn't work, there's no harm in trying.

And I'm so sorry, Chareshia, really! But I think it's too important of an issue to drop. You don't have to participate in the discussion though if you don't want to. I mean, I only read like 5% of the stuff on this forum anyways (cough!!): you're not obligated to read every single post! :p

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