The Dungeon Master Project.

Ataris wrote:I am of strong belief that RP and a server is something that should be carved out by each individual and their efforts, plots included. It should not be a process dictated by elected people. Which is what this will turn into, whether you wish it to be optional or not.

That. *nods sagely*

One thing that keeps bothering me here : people keep mentioning a "third party" when the "third party" IS part of the rp community, so it automatically loses every single "benefit" that a "third party" would have.

Please don't refer to it as "third party", that would be a Blizzard employee or people from a different server. RP'ers from this server can never be a "third party".

I think this is a bit out of proportions. The idea is to make an optional plot.

Optional means you can actively choose whether or not you want to take part. Trolls wont be kicked out of Orgrimmar, cause that would be power-gaming. Besides, it would break the optional part. A guild in on the plot might be kicked out, though.

Take a step back and maybe look at this from another perspective. It doesn't have to be all bad at all. Only the guilds involved will be part of the plot. Sure, if you're somehow involved with a guild that is in on the plot, you might unwillingly get dragged in, but just how is that different from any other RP events?

EDIT: And it's not like you can't role play with guilds that choose to stay out of it.

Greetings all, and excuse me for not taking the time to read any previous posts here besides that of Shrogan.

To the subject; While I have plenty of respect for Shrogan, and I see the appeal in the idea itself, I can't see me and the Vanguard participating any actively in this.

The Vanguard, or rather its inofficial predecessor, originated in the idea of bringing the RP away from the centralized factors, away from the OOC bickering that affected -everyone- wether they were willingly involved or not.

I have, like I'm sure most others do, a reluctance to roleplay with certain people, I also have a reluctance to talk to some people OOCly. We simply do not get along. I don't wish to bind myself to a center of people to sort out drama and difficulties, if I have a problem that I need to sort with person X, then I talk to person X and try to sort it out. If there is no way for me and person X to get along, then I doubt adding person Y and Z will change that. It sounds, at best, like beaurocracy.

And, as a consequence, if I really want to have an event with person X and have the time and inspiration to do so, then I will speak to person X. There is no need for person Y to get involved at all.

While I'm all for the idea of involving more people into roleplay plots, and despite being a quite brutal opposer to elitistic attitude within the community, I still find it up to each and every arranger of events to decide who they want to involve and who they don't. If you apply this value onto the "Dungeon Master Team"-idea , then mainly; people who are not involved in this idea will be left out, à la old-day-Stormwind-Council rethoric, and secondly; People who do not like eachother will be forced to confront eachother, which is -bound- to result in drama.

I prefer to see individual initiatives on a more personal level, involving people who get along on a friendly and developing level, rather than trying to connect the entire community - Which is full of dislike and irritation between some groups and some people. This is why I find the ideas of a 'unified community' quite unrealistic in all fairness. I've roleplayed on this server since 2005 like so many others, and I think we're quite aware that there is no such thing as "no drama" in the defias community.


I can see this idea working for as long as people are content and happy, but anyone would know that you can't please everyone. I certainly wish everyone who are up for this good luck, though. I'll gladly participate a bit now and then, but I'm keeping my hands out of the greater deal.

Winterbloom wrote:I think this is a bit out of proportions. The idea is to make an optional plot.

Optional means you can actively choose whether or not you want to take part. Trolls wont be kicked out of Orgrimmar, cause that would be power-gaming. Besides, it would break the optional part. A guild in on the plot might be kicked out, though.

Since this is out of proportions, as I explicitly stated "don't get stuck on the example itself", feel free to replace that example with "a situation that would affect your character directly" instead.

The idea is to make it so that no such situations occur.

"What if..." questions can't be answered before we actually try it out.

Winterbloom wrote:The idea is to make it so that no such situations occur.

"What if..." questions can't be answered before we actually try it out.

I hate to say it, but I feel that if there is a "What if.." then it's a "What if it works THIS time?".

It's only past experiences of centralizing decisions concerning roleplay that keeps me sceptical. Especially if there are other factors involved than the people actually carrying out the event.

Maybe it is. What if it works this time?

I don't think pessimism should get in the way of new ideas. If it doesn't work, no harm done. If it works - Awesome.

EDIT: And I'm not saying I don't understand your concerns, I just think we should at least give it a go on a short scale.

Nayan wrote:One thing that keeps bothering me here : people keep mentioning a "third party" when the "third party" IS part of the rp community, so it automatically loses every single "benefit" that a "third party" would have.

Please don't refer to it as "third party", that would be a Blizzard employee or people from a different server. RP'ers from this server can never be a "third party".

I think Andrek kind of gave a good image of what i meant with "third party" in this case. Not speaking in official terms, but in terms of the roleplaying community. If I were to organise something with some other person, I wouldn't need some third person who actually has little to do with the event in its entity. I consider that a third party in a way. Albeit an unnecessary one.

Dictionaries aside, I know not all people may be able to organise such things by themselves, Mandui, but that just makes me wonder whether they would have any more will to step towards one of these members of a team instead of the person they'd want to organise it with either. Anyway, I do see your point on that, which is why I said that other people are definitely free to give it a try. I just don't see that many benefits for myself just yet.

Kozgugore Feraleye wrote:I think Andrek kind of gave a good image of what i meant with "third party" in this case. Not speaking in official terms, but in terms of the roleplaying community. If I were to organise something with some other person, I wouldn't need some third person who actually has little to do with the event in its entity. I consider that a third party in a way. Albeit an unnecessary one.

To clarify, this also the definition I had in mind. The middle man is also what I call it.

After reading through this thread, I have but a small query.

Noticing Koz's remarks and obviously knowing of his masterful leadership skills brought me to a different conclusion. As this is all entirely about creating plot's I thought of Imanuel's thread, you know the one where he add's constantly (or used to) about the story, the situation and the land ownership of Duskwood. Something like that is excellent for informing anyone and everyone in this community about the event, Imanuel in context evidently worked as a singular when this idea is about a team.

A team, that doesn't have to be -one- team of RPers from around the server, something that is simply guild based or event based could easily use another sub forum to create and maintain new roleplaying hubs whilst plots go on. For example if Imanuel instead of biting off more than he could chew placed more "authority" and responsibilty on a group of people the events in Duskwood might have gone down easier.

The team as I have said allows for many people, different to each event and hub to have a chance at directing and aiding people to developing the event, and or hub's history. Obviously being that the majority of the realms RP comes from various guilds, people like Kozgugore can easily direct and maintain his own -team-, rather than relying on a different pool of players that he may or may not need the help of.

This idea then allows you to not get bogged down on being a part of this DM&T thing, as the events are maintained by the people that create them, rather than a different group of people that might not have any IC ties to even begin to add to the events at hand. People that aren't part of the fabled team don't feel ruled by them, and people that may or may not have been part of it don't get overwhelmed by adding an almost job like aspect to a game.

By using a sub forum, a meta or sub(?) plot can be devised easily as the server lore is added by the users, the creaters, the maintainers and the team of the different guilds or groups. Meta or sub(?) plots can be suggested by the readers and perhaps acted upon. I do think however that those types of underlining plots are already pretty much given by Blizzard. People may or may not RP as an active part of the Northrend forces but the Lore surrounding the Lich King and stuff affects them all anyway, to a degree perhaps server lore shouldn't create it's own underlining plots incase it does interfere with the one created by Blizz?

...Just a thought.

Winterbloom wrote:Maybe it is. What if it works this time?

I don't think pessimism should get in the way of new ideas. If it doesn't work, no harm done. If it works - Awesome.

EDIT: And I'm not saying I don't understand your concerns, I just think we should at least give it a go on a short scale.

I have given it a go a multitude of times, both in small scale and big scale. All the times I've ended up wishing that it'd just go away. It didn't, quite the opposite it pursued me and the folks I RPed with -constantly-, directly and indirectly.

"If it doesn't work"? Is "not working" that everyone gets pissed and leaves, or is it that it's only working for some people? Because it always works for some. and some are going to want to keep going, while the rest won't want to. And you can't say "Well, those who don't want to can go, the rest can keep running", because it doesn't work that way.

If it was like that, then it'd have worked in the past. For me, it never did.

Well, andrek is seldom wrong in his statements.

I can see the problems with this project, and would personally prefer an edited version of it, with instead of a DM&T, you have conflict solvers who can partake in the plots itself - Who also think up new ways for the plot to expand

Let me simplify this for you:
Person A and person B are both conflict solvers / plot thinkers - and are able to stay neutral when called uppon. - But also they are able to be part of the event IC.

Now Person 1 and person 2 have had a biig drama event where Ic is taken ooc and the other way around. - Person 1 is part of Person A´s guild, and person 2 is part of Person B´s guild.

Now instead of taking sides with their guildies, they remain neutral and find a solution to this drama, that will work for the better of the event.

Other part of their "job" so to speak would be to evolve the plot instead of moderate it as DM´s


Another thing is, I don´t see why this has to be community wide, why not just make a group to organise a series of events?

One must also consider that this is a game we all pay to play. Personally, I'm not going to spend twenty bucks a month for some people to coordinate my playing time for me.

Edit: Because I -do- want to be an active member of this community, but if one needs to subject themselves to the DM&T's authority that way, I'm afraid I must say no.

And, through a few more pages now I again point to the suggestion I bought out. That instead of having a team that in any way at all might direct, coordinate or anything (where I think some might missunderstand and take what shro's suggesting abit to far, maybe due to the name he chose). Just have a team who keep up with plotlines, write them down, and post them as a server history on the Wiki. Or server zone history. With the help of the people involved in the plotlines themselfs.

Get some of the things from here (we get a "defias server plot" of what has happened on the server) and, for people who actually might read the wiki, we get a good option for new people on the server to get into the community without missing something big in their character that is specific to how things played out on Defias that they otherwise wouldn't know about.

Felinaa/Dijie/Finnabhair wrote:One must also consider that this is a game we all pay to play. Personally, I'm not going to spend twenty bucks a month for some people to coordinate my playing time for me.

Edit: Because I -do- want to be an active member of this community, but if one needs to subject themselves to the DM&T's authority that way, I'm afraid I must say no.

Sorry, but this is just lame. Nowhere does it say that they will coordinate your game time. I'll use Shrogans example. The Horde and The Alliance bang on the doors of Icecrown and seek to kill Arthas. You don't -have- to go to Northrend. You don't have to do shite. You can sit on the bench in Stormwind/Silvermoon all day long, if you want to, oblivious to what's happening in Northrend.

The idea (as I see it) is NOT to coordinate your game time, control the flow of event, gain power and influence or take over the world. It's a suggestion on how we potentially could make even more vast events that'd make the server even more interesting and realistic.

Maybe a better way to describe this project would be as a team of people taking the time to keep in touch with every subgroup of the Defias RP community, stay updated on what RP plotlines each group is running and give advice on what other plots it might interact with and facilitate contact where it makes sense to do so. They could then also advertise themselves as a source for people to OOCly stay updated about current plotlines.

Not so much controlling or creating the RP as just helping the people who do stay updated on how they can coordinate events to reach more of the community, I guess.

I have read most of the replies here, and I believe that I have failed to transmit the actual idea of the DM&T. By no means is it meant to control the roleplay of the server. But rather, to put everything together and aid in keeping a track of things. I will post up an example of how it'd work.

Let's say for a moment the DM&T is estabilished. And some guilds send me some feedback of their actions. And this'll be a very short summary, 'cause I don't have much time on my hands right now and I just woke up.

Say for example that the following guilds give me the following feedback:

Orcs of the Red Blade: The Orcs have decided to move closer to Dustwallow march to encroach on Theramore (This they send the DM&T).

Cult of Shadow: The undead apothecaries of the Cult of Shadow wish to acquire a few more samples of Blight for further study and have thus travelled to Northrend to Venomhide and Agamand mills, leaving behind only a smaller force protecting the Thandol Span.

The Gurubashi: The Trolls are staying around the Vale, plotting and preparing to expand themselves to further their conquest of the North. An evil plan of Voodoos and stuff.

The DRS: They are regathering in Menethil and planning to make a move very soon.

KoA: They are within their fortress' walls, trying to make the best of their time, until control of the Span is regained.

And let us admit for a moment, that the Duskwood plot's come to an end, and the Lighties were victorious. I receive several messages stating the current state of Duskwood from the guilds involved (I don't know all of them) and lastly some from the Dark Sphere.

Dark Sphere: We're planning on resurrecting a demon which we will then enslave, use it to empower ourselves and weave a curse over the Lighties of Darkshire.

So. There's all these plots, aye? These are sent over to the DM&T (Who -are- members of the community. Kozz, if these guilds were to join, the DM&T would have to have a member of all these communities to help organize things.) who will then spin it all together in one big plot-hook (And the creation of the plot-hook is why I call this a Dungeon Master kind of thing, rather than the ULTIMATE CONTROL of what's coming down).

There is a feeling of tension in Theramore. Sightings of Orcish troops have been made amidst the Ogres of Dustwallow marsh. Rumours are that an impending attack is to be made. (If the Orcish movement is not to be known, then please say so in the feedback). In the Eastern Kingdoms, after having taken the Thandol Span, the undead forces of the Cult of the Shadow have found their supplies of Blight dwindling. They have sent their best Apothecaries to Northrend, to obtain some resources from Agamand Mills and Venomspite post alike, leaving behind a handful of fanatics to protect the borders of Arathi in the meantime.
Facing this situation, the Arathi nation, lies under siege within it's walls, by the undead blockade. With little food and dwindling resources, how long will they last before they are overrun?
Dwarven intelligence, has learned of the weakening of the defences at the borders of the Wetlands, and are preparing a taskforce to strike at it, in hopes to break the blockade and lift the pressure on Arathor.

To the South, the Duskwood civil war has subsided, and the Cultist threat has been seemingly defeated. Peace has reigned for a few days now, and all is well. The population has become calm, and facing for the first time in a while, a few days of stability, trying to repair the damage which it caused. However, something is amiss... the Empire seems all too calm in the Southern Jungles and there is an eerie feeling of unease, as if an unseen force lurked within the woods.

-----

OOC: Then post a little bit of OOC information regarding where folks are and what could be the major Roleplaying hubs for everyone to keep up to date.

----------------------------------------------------------

This is pretty basically what the DM&T would be doing all along. IF there was a plot twist to be added (If folks find that to be a good idea) it could be something like say... using the Empire as an example. We've made it to say... Desolace, which barely has any resources of it's own. Perhaps add a little surprise element to the plot, like for example a caravan of supplies being attacked, making people either needing to go to it's rescue, or salvaging their own food for a while? Just to make things a bit more interesting. Alas, I'm not saying that "FROM NOW ON WE'RE RPING ONLY THIS." But rather, I'm trying to bring everyone's plots together into a greater plot-arc. The DM&T's function is to estabilish this plot-arch and maintain it. The OOC reporting is to help the DM&T in keeping track of these events and spin the story according to what people do and not the other way around.

The only other OOC function which I've suggested is something along the lines of the following.

Guild A clashes with Guild B. Guild B and A happen to have a problem with the way each other are acting, using methods perhaps dubbed as powerplay, or overpowered by one of the parties, or perhaps an unfair use of knowledge. They seemingly can't reach an agreement without creating either feuds or grudges. One of them or even both may ask the help of the DM&T to suggest an alternative way of reaching the same goal with less OOC feuding. Everybody wins.
If the two parties however can solve the conflict on their own without the DM&T's help though, all the better!

So...basically, you want to make a list of what everyone is doing and make it public for everyone to know?

Or did I interpret that wrong?

In a very blunt way, yes and no, without the megalomaniac turn which you make me sound like. I don't plan to make everyone's underwear colors known. But rather, what they're doing IN THE COMMUNITY for others to participate in. Turn it all into a story for people to be able to follow, with several ways for it to be developped, with increased communication between all the parties involved, better coordination of plots.
And make it an easy access for people to choose what they want or not to get involved with. Someone with access for example to the previous text may think.

"Hmm... I'd like to perhaps aid the Cult in fetching the Blight. Or maybe reinforce the Span." or even "I'll go poke and prod the Trolls a bit. They're too silent."

There's plenty from where to pick in that place. People could just do whatever they want. The DM&T's just trying to organise it and make it available for people.

Shrogan wrote:In a very blunt way, yes and no, without the megalomaniac turn which you make me sound like. I don't plan to make everyone's underwear colors known. But rather, what they're doing IN THE COMMUNITY for others to participate in. Turn it all into a story for people to be able to follow, with several ways for it to be developped, with increased communication between all the parties involved, better coordination of plots.

An example comes to mind of Black Friday. Could there have been more communication there? Do plotlines want to be revealed that way? As stressful as it can be, spontaneity is often the cause for either great fun or great failure. Either way, I feel this plot coordination has too much constriction over random RP/events.

Shrogan wrote:And make it an easy access for people to choose what they want or not to get involved with. Someone with access for example to the previous text may think.

"Hmm... I'd like to perhaps aid the Cult in fetching the Blight. Or maybe reinforce the Span." or even "I'll go poke and prod the Trolls a bit. They're too silent."

But those people aren't always there. And even then, randomly showing up somewhere *points at the threads concerning the Chapter and Darkshire stuff* can also cause massive drama and misunderstandings. Not all guild events, you say, would be included, so yes...there will be potential disruptions if you randomly show up somewhere.

Shrogan wrote:There's plenty from where to pick in that place. People could just do whatever they want. The DM&T's just trying to organise it and make it available for people.

In a way, I consider this metagaming, personally. This information shouldn't be that freely available. It also sort of hinders going out of your way to contact the guilds and groups and individuals to get involved yourself, but encouraging people to just show up and walk into RP plots and RP sessions where they might not be welcomed with open arms.

"Megalomaniac" is a lovely word, by the way.

Winterbloom wrote:

Shrogan wrote:(If the Orcish movement is not to be known, then please say so in the feedback)

No one was supposed to know about the Silvermoon attack on Black Friday either. But those things happen, sadly.

I was reading the newspapers a while ago. The realm ones that can be found here. They give the pulse of the community, informing people of what's been going on. Plotlines are revealed there in a way. The information is freely available, since it's very much public ICly. Position of troops, outcomes of battles, politics, etc. The "shady people", who plot in the dark, don't become public, just like their doings remain secret on the newspapers, until of course they have public consequences.

I think the newspapers are very similar to what the team would be like, only more connected to each other. I can't see how that can ever be seen as metagaming

Mandui wrote:I think the newspapers are very similar to what the team would be like, only more connected to each other. I can't see how that can ever be seen as metagaming

Then perhaps we don't need a DM&T thanks to those...maybe...? Hur?