The Dungeon Master Project.

Folks, alright, that's quite enough. Stick to the topic.

Gnash wrote:The point you make is essentially not a problem of the people that are part of the meta-plot. It's the problem of the people that do not accept it. Basically, it's like being invited to your neighbor's party -- declining -- but still complaining that the music is too loud.

The thing is, we can call this a community all we want, but it can never be united properly. We'll have meta-plot people clashing with individuals, events potentially ruined, etc. Too many different ideas and to be honest, common sense is no longer a common thing.

The potential is always there, but after being on Defias for a few years (I think...not sure when I transferred), egos slam into each other all the time and I know a few big ones that are on this forum (and I don't mean that in an insulting way). Even moderated, I've seen a lot of those egos clashing here already.

That's quite enough, Felinaa. You're no longer giving any positive or constructive feedback. If you're not going to add anything to the project, I'll have to ask you to keep quiet to let others read through.

Shrogan wrote:That's quite enough, Felinaa. You're no longer giving any positive or constructive feedback. If you're not going to add anything to the project, I'll have to ask you to keep quiet to let others read through.

No constructive feedback?

That last post of hers seemed like a voiced concern over the project.

Shrogan, maybe it would help if you put out an example of a plot and how a few guilds could be involved? To make it a bit more transparent.

Yus, but what I mean is, all her posts have said the exact same thing and have been taken into consideration lad. While there are egos which may clash and the likes, we won't know how this project will work out until we set it in motion.

There's little use in keep bashing on the same topic, to which we have no reply, since we've had not yet experimented it yet. I don't mean this as some sort of "shut up, you're not agreeing" but rather "Alright, that's enough. You're not adding new things, and I've noticed that people might get a mixed message from your posts".

And Winterbloom I will in the morrow, because right now, it's late and I'd like to RP a bit >_>

I´d suggest trying this out on a small scale with a closed group of random new people and some established roleplayers to see how this would work, and then sort out all the birth-defects before going onto a larger scale.

Would be quite good to expand the idea as it goes, instead of launching it to the entire community and pronouncing that "now it´s live and everyone should join in!" and having a big influx of players, which would most likely lead to confusion and drama.

Only intended as constructive critisism

Of course there will be drama. I don't think anyone thinks that the idea will completely wipe out drama. It will likely make some of it go away. Things like RP-events colliding or uninvited guilds showing up at w-pvp events. (PvP-guilds will still be there, so there's still plenty of room to whine on the forums, but role player to role player drama should decrease significantly.)

Also, operating within a plot-line is usually great fun. Mostly because everyone's in on it.


... I think!

Aye, aye, Bennedict. I am presenting this to the community for people to share their thoughts with me and see whether or not there is enough interest to pull this through.

This will -have- to start as a smaller thing, but as it grows, more and more interested people. But as I said, we'll never know whether or not this is possible without giving it a test drive.

And thanks for the support Winterbloom <3

Aye, launching this in an alpha test, before moving on to the beta and finally launching it

Anyhow, this seems as an interesting project and I´m keeping an eye open.


Off topic: What happened to molten Bore?

I'm all for this, sounds like a worthy idea and scheme to experiment with'' I't can't hurt too bad can it? Chance is, we actually might create better order and cooperation between our guilds and mini communities.

Shrogan for Emperor, if I get to be his Darth Vader. :<

I remain pessimistic about ideas like this. The problem with these kinds of groups is that wether you like it or not you're going to get dragged into it, once the group becomes large enough. Once that happens you'll have a closed group that you'll pretty much be forced to join if you want to interact with the community. This creates endless problems for anyone new on the server, who does not know where to go or who to talk to. Add to that that it's enough that a few of the elected will have personal preferences and the closed group will be even harder to get into, especially if you want to do it IC. Once there you'll get the inevitable drama and things will start to go sour.

Excuse the pessimism, but I feel like I've seen this concept before. If you wish to try it, go ahead, might be fun until Cata hits. I remain extremely skeptical though and I have seen nothing that will alleviate that, especially if you want to react to criticism the way you have in this thread. There's just too many things that can and will go wrong.

Good luck anyhow, if you want to try it.

There is always the option to simply gather a group of people and set them to think out a plot that can involve some guilds (known and unknown), to improve the community feeling, and then instead of being Dungeon Masters, rather being conflict solvers if drama spurs or anything in other senses that could ruin a plot.

In my opinion, this would be much simpler to create, and would elude much of the "closed" group feeling if you make the event as open as possible towards the roleplaying guilds that could be interested.

Aye, I will extend the opportunity to everyone who wishes to participate. In fact, the whole project is what we make of it.

But first, let's give this a try with some small group! And then, if it works (and obviously if people agree to it) we could extend it more and more.

@Ataris

How about if you make the meta-plot only relevant to the guilds involved? Like say the meta-plot was taking back Silverpine Forest.

Guilds would chat about what their different perspectives on the invasion were and what parts they would play. Silverpine is not very traversed so it'd be unlikely that the plot would ruin anyone's fun. When in the tavern you go "I'm heading off to Northrend, ugh, I mean Silverpine, tomorrow morning and.. I might not make it. Life is so fragile and my bed is cold.." New guilds could join the project fairly easy.

There'd be room for warriors, traders, diplomats, scoundrels, thieves and the sort. And everything would happen outside the normal RP-hubs of both alliance and horde, thereby leaving those who do not wish to join the opportunity to stay in Stormwind/Duskwood/Theramoore/Barrens/Whatever.

As I see it, the main difference between this and for example the Duskwood or Arathor plot-lines is the size and a slightly better coordination.

Winterbloom, just said exactly what I meant in more detail.

What I´d like to add is having people dedicated to problemsolving, like setting four people to be neutral when OOC, in order to solve the drama and other things that might come up.

I´m really up for moving some rp outside of the normal hubs and getting some interesting plots going, so we can add to the server lore. (Which someone who has played since the start or just long should write in our server wikia!)

The wall of text made me cringe. But then I saw it was a Shrogan post and made myself a cup of coffee and read it.

I think it's an idea. I can't say if it's good or bad, namely because I can relate to many problems this idea can sprout. But it is as you said, we won't know until we tried it. The way I get it, this will make it so RP events are happening simultaneously in different parts of the world, envolving different guilds, supervised by a team, to speck an illusion that we have an actual running plot. I can't say I don't like it, because I do.

Shrogan wrote:"...You're not adding new things, and I've noticed that people might get a mixed message from your posts".

I find this comment intriguing.

Shrogan wrote:That's quite enough, Felinaa. You're no longer giving any positive or constructive feedback. If you're not going to add anything to the project, I'll have to ask you to keep quiet to let others read through.

First of all, semi moderator mode: it sounds off-track to prohibit people from repeatedly voicing concerns and objections (within reason and without flaming or insults, ofc), while retaining yourself a flow of supporting posts. Same reasoning could say "Shro stop posting, you've already stated your view, now you're just repeating". Felinaa's posts are perfectly in line, and if you really feel this project is what we need, you should also be prepared to accept the fact some people might not agree.

Consider one of these metaplots and some people not agreeing with it. What would you do? State to everyone how it should be done this way, and allow people "one voicing each" and after that forbid them to further express concerns?

I don't see any moderating problem with anyone's post in this thread (the pic and the vid could have been skipped, but they're not enough of an infringement to justify measures).

And now RP'er mode: I'm in a position to see all the good side-effects of this, and I do appreciate the effort you put. But as I told you last time you mentioned it (after you had pretty much decided what and how, for the record), I have a lot of doubts about it.

In my eyes, it would turn the entire server into a huge Cathedral, with people not seeing or accepting anything outside their precious metaplot, shifting weight from what the community has silently forged into a "it's agreed, it's the law of the server's RP!".

I've no interest whatsoever to participate in this metaplot, and I've no desire to have anyone impose "facts" to me with the pretences "It's the entire server!" voiced through one or two people. Just no.

I do agree wholeheartedly that there should be something "controlling" the masses, but it is my firm belief that this something should be everyone's decency and common sense. I know, "common sense is not too common", but I refuse to settle for an artificial common sense which will be affected by politics. I am here to enjoy myself and have fun, not to get involved in politics and get in the good books of whoever may have ended up being part of that "DM&T".

It's my view that this is nothing but a powerplay. Not hinting you wish to have power over others, but that the "DM&T" whoever they are, whether they intend to or not, will be a fixed source of power, with all the actions and reactions this brings. I don't like powerplays.

A side-comment to Winterbloom's post above, about "uninvited guilds showing up at w-pvp events". How so? I don't see anything you can do with a metaplot that forbids uninvited guilds showing up at events. They're kinda uninvited now as it is, so what would change? You'd invite them? Or block their pc's from accessing the zone you are in? ^^

Another side-comment is that, if you "try it out" and "set it in motion", it's a one-way road. Noone will ever go "ok, this doesn't fit really, let's all ignore ICly the past 2 months we've tested it. The past 2 months never happened. kk?". Everyone will just accept it, no matter how good or bad it is.

If you go ahead with this and if it finds server-wide acceptance, I'll simply withdraw from RPing completely and focus on the PvE aspect of the game, or simply RP with 1-2 people at most if and only if they also have nothing to do with a metaplot.

On the one hand, I think it is a good plan, because it will (hopefully) make people think about the grand scheme of things.

However.

I must say I agree with Felinaa and Nayan. Chances are very high that this will derail in a matter of weeks, if not days. Not everyone likes everyone else, and if person A gets into this DM&T and person B doesn't have a good relationship with them, chances are person B is pretty f*ed for RP. Of course, this already happens on a smaller scale, but this initiative would blow things out of proportion, in my view. Most of this has been said before, though. One way to lessen this amount of power is to have a vote every now and then to see who gets to be in the DM&T, but that would be very difficult to organise and may make things worse rather than better.

I do not feel comfortable to giving this amount of power to a small amount of players. Call me paranoid, but I just don't trust people that much. Experience has taught me that most people are rather selfish.

Final note,
I'd like to point out that this would also make it harder for new rp'ers to join the fun. We have a cute little newbie at our guild right now, and they make some very basic mistakes, which is ok because they are learning, but would make them shunned as an 'OOCtard' by most players. They're already finding it hard to nail down all the new rules, without having to read through pages of server history and being told what to do by some high supreme council.

I fear a lot of people will get excluded if this happens. That doesn't mean you can't prove me wrong and change my mind.

Regarding my reply to Dijie. I do accept criticism Nayan and I do se a valid point in her concerns. But it's been taken into account and there is hardly a need to continue repeating it over and over and over again. As I said before, I understand her concerns but it's something to which I don't have an answer to as of yet because we've not yet given this a test drive.

Regarding the view of the project. Well, the DM&T's purpose is hardly the control how the server goes. I mean, Roleplayers will be the ones deciding what happens with the Metaplot. It's not my intention to impose them with a plot-hook completely detached from what the people want or need. It is spinned -after- receiving the people's feedback on what they're interested in seeing, what they'd like to roleplay out. What sort of atmosphere are they interested in setting in.

And again, I don't think the DM&T should be used as Court or Political body in the server. But rather as an event making body which will strive to make events for all of the server to enjoy, which will give in a sense of progression to the parties involved and generally enhace the Roleplaying experience in the server.

Thirdly, this project is just an optional thing. If people chose to participate, then it can be tried. And if they disagree how it's being played the DM&T will bring the plot to a closure, in a way so this chapter is ended once and for all, and then people can just go on with their Roleplay as they see fit. If people do not like the thought of this spreading to the server, then we can just gather interest from a few people and make events for them instead and see how this plays out. It's not mandatory nor Imperative that this be imposed upon everyone else.

@ Ariyuni: I see what you mean with your post, and let me try and attempt to shed some of my views into it
The DM&T will not be as small as you make it seem. Precisely to avoid favouritism and Person A excluding Person B in a "I dislike you" basis. If Person B feels rather uncomfortable with Person A, then they can send their complaints and views towards someone else. The DM&T will be fairly wide, not to mention that the Representatives from the Groups involved will have a say in the output of the DM&T. They are NEVER the supreme power of the server, and in the end, they're only really allowed to do, what we want them to do. Not the other way around.
But I do see the reservations in giving said amount of power to those people and I don't blame you. But perhaps, by widening the DM&T, we can dilute favouritism and power-plays. This could allow for the team to moderate itself.

Actually, I find it to be quite the opposite. Everyone has a place in this community, even and especially newbies. Upon joining the forums, there will be a very summarised guide on how things are coming down. A plot so far thread with latest plot developments with an IC and OOC explanation, to keep everyone up to date.
Regarding "mistakes" I hardly believe there to be any mistakes in Roleplay. Upon a newbie joining, it's the duty of the Representative of the group which they've joined to give them a basic guideline on what's been coming down in this server and accompany their development within the community, so they're not simply "tossed in" without any sort of guidance or company whatsoever. No one will tell them what to do, but rather help them understand what and how the server's been working, or if not the server, then the groups involved (should a newbie join the groups involved that is).
Everyone has a place in here. And it's the duty of the community and the DM&T to be patient and aid in the "settling" for the lack of a better word.

If "everyone has a voice", why would we need it instead of leaving it as it is?

And how optional is "optional"?
Let's assume the Metaplot-device has reached a stage where Orcs of the Red Blade evict Trolls from Orgrimmar.
Let's assume I have opted out of Metaplots.
Everyone in Orgrimmar will be able to treat my troll as if this never happened, because I opted out of the metaplot? No. They will treat my troll according to their metaplot.
And I'll have to react according to the metaplot.
Without wanting to be part of the metaplot.
How exactly can this work out?
(naturally this is a very limited example out of the top of my head, so don't give me a simplistic "don't go to Orgrimmar", please, doesn't work that way )

Let's also assume that my troll's mate wants to be part of the metaplot, goes into Orgrimmar, and almost gets beaten to death.
What will happen when they meet again?
Won't my troll have to react to the metaplot, without me wanting to be part of the metaplot, just because someone I rp'd with, had an effect on them based on the metaplot?

My point is: you cannot isolate reality, you cannot claim someone can "opt out if they don't want it" for something that large. Heck, you cannot say that for a small scale either, everything can affect everything.

The only way you can apply metaplots/DM&T without affecting people who don't wish metaplots/DM&T, is to have them -completely- isolated from the "open air". In another server.

Hope it makes better sense now

~

As for limiting replies, I'll repeat that as much as you can keep posting in support of this, someone can keep posting against it.

I remain optimistic of this until we try it out and see how it might develop.

This system could really make the gameworld feel more alive' and developing, and help in creating new RP hubs' and partial stability.

I lost my post to DC, but it seems Nayan covered my points well.

If you make it large, it doesn't matter if it's optional. Those are just words. You can't "widen" the DM&T if there's no new players either.

Your point that "people do stuff that affect my character" is pretty much the essence of role-playing. Must have been countless times where I have stumbled upon people trying to force their reality on my character. Basically, role-playing is nothing other than that: forcing realities on one another by interacting.

If you are wandering about in Duskwood, in example, and a mad cultists halts you to have your spleen ripped out -- you can always choose to ignore it. Although it would be more fun to participate of course. ;-) In the process you would accept the cultists' reality for being a 'mad cultist'. It happens on a guild scale too (Kingdom of Arathor, Second Gurubashi Empire, etc. claiming land) and everybody seems to be cool with that. So why not on a community scale?