Using both shadow and holy

The darkness and the shadows are two different things. Darkness is the absolute absence of light, regardless of any objects being present or not. Shadows are the partial absence of light on a surface, created by the interception of an opaque object between a surface and the source of the light.

As for the complete absence of shadows, Mandui has experienced that, thanks to Dragomir. Alas, I have no time to get into this, since I have to get ready for the movie. I might do so once I'm back

Wouldn't that mean Shadow is the "grey area" between Light and Darkness?

No, it just means that it is the darker counterpart to the Light, while Darkness is something completely separate from them both. And though it resembles Shadow more than Light, it would eradicate them both equally.

If the Light reaches everywhere, then nothing exists in the Light. If the Light were to be extinguished, then the Shadow would cease to be and everything would become Darkness instead. The growth of Shadow would bring the Darkness, which is why the forces of Darkness favor it, but the absence of it entirely is just as undesirable.

Before I learned that there are two sources of divine power, Light and Shadow, I theoretized that both Light and Shadow are the end result of a soul interacting with the source of all divine power.

To put in other words, divine power is projected on a soul. Depending on the soul it will either reflect unto others as Light or cast a Shadow.
With this in mind I also made a clear distinction between Shadow and Darkness, with Darkness being something similar to Shadow but not from a divine origin. Arcane shadow magic, for example.

I’d like to thank everyone for replying with so much depth. I’ve got a lot to think about concerning the development of my character. I think I’ll try to become a grey priest , though basically humans able to control both sides are rather impossible. So, this concept –the demon seal concept- suits me one way or the other.

Thanks everyone.

I'm just curious about the whole balance idea... where does it come from? While the names Light and Shadow does invite for such theories... I don't see the same thing in the teachings (which, you know, is the important part).

Why does it have to be a balance between "Helping those in need, but don't shoving help down their throats" (simplified creed of the light) and "Try to attain more power any way you can, but respect the ones more powerful than you" (simplified creed of Shadow)?

Why is a world with no shadow undesirable? The teachings of the Light has nothing that demands self-sacrefice (though... it glorifies it). Nothing that demands punishment. Nothing that demands giving upp rights or freedoms. Nothing that says that joy is bad. Nothing that even forbids conflict.

Why is it important that the shadow, which propone things like ruthless ambition, stabbing your superior in the back to get his position, abandoning those that "drags or slows you down" and similar actions, continue to exist in balance?

Why would life suffer if the latter vanished and only the former remained?

What Gahalla is hinting at - is the shadow is bad.

It is. And you have to be bad to use it. But I think we all know this by now.

I have a situation I'd like yours opinion on:

Anjelica befriended a Death Knight (bare with me). They’ve both went into battle and the Death Knight’s leg gets wounded. Will she be able to heal his leg with he light? If not, how would she be able to do it? She’s extremely keen on getting her friend healed, in such a way it frustrates her. She must and will heal his friend so he’ll be able to walk again. Binding his wound with linen or such is out of the picture. How would she do it? To help her friend, must she draw on the shadow? Or, am I mistaken here. Or could the light heal a death knight?

I think it's more or less accepted that the Light is bad for undead.
The strongest magic would get the Ashbringer effect while lesser magic, for example blessings give between a certain discomfort up to pain for the receiving undead (the blessing thing is how a DK I know reacted the first time I blessed the character, was my mind blown).

Shadow might work, but since forsaken are able to heal themselves by eating humanoid flesh, dk's might be able to do the same or *takes cover* by drinking blood or pouring it on the wound.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:I think it's more or less accepted that the Light is bad for undead.
The strongest magic would get the Ashbringer effect while lesser magic, for example blessings give between a certain discomfort up to pain for the receiving undead (the blessing thing is how a DK I know reacted the first time I blessed the character, was my mind blown).

So, she can't help him?

It would take incredible control to make sure the light doesn't do what it does best to the Undead.

ps, edited something in last post.

The most recent lore on that front seem to be that the Light can now heal and be used by the undead, it's just extremely painful for them (and some specific spells can kill, not healing ones though).

I'll try to dig up the link soon

Shadow can heal anyway. Unholy Light used by reanimated crusaders, dark mending, etc, etc.

Gahalla wrote:I'm just curious about the whole balance idea... where does it come from? While the names Light and Shadow does invite for such theories... I don't see the same thing in the teachings (which, you know, is the important part).

Balance in general, be it in regards to the Light-Shadow debate or any other debate, is not an easily attainable goal. It's a lot easier to lean towards one of the two sides which normally define a notion, a belief or a principle, mostly because of certain traits each of us carries and our human nature. It's rather natural to presume that this is also the case in an imaginary world, such as the game, since that's how we perceive things in real life.

Gahalla wrote:
Why does it have to be a balance between "Helping those in need, but don't shoving help down their throats" (simplified creed of the light) and "Try to attain more power any way you can, but respect the ones more powerful than you" (simplified creed of Shadow)?

Because if one didn't follow the path of moderation (which is balance or the strife therefor in a way), it'd easily mean their downfall. Going to extremities is well known to be fatal in one way or another. In the examples you gave, not trying to keep any balance whatsoever would translate into "Helping those in need by shoving help down their throats" and "Try to attain more power any way you can, even by disrespecting the ones more powerful than you". How well do you think that would work? Not at all.

Gahalla wrote:
Why is a world with no shadow undesirable? The teachings of the Light has nothing that demands self-sacrefice (though... it glorifies it). Nothing that demands punishment. Nothing that demands giving upp rights or freedoms. Nothing that says that joy is bad. Nothing that even forbids conflict.

Why is it important that the shadow, which propone things like ruthless ambition, stabbing your superior in the back to get his position, abandoning those that "drags or slows you down" and similar actions, continue to exist in balance?

Why would life suffer if the latter vanished and only the former remained?

This is yet another factor which redirects to the human nature itself and the order of things in the universe, whose projection is naturally found in an imaginary world and its lore. The Light is well known to harbor all that which altruism stands for, the three virtues being proof enough for that. But what would respect, tenacity and compassion have for a reason to exist if not to be displayed in order to contrast the Shadow among other things? What meaning would tenacity have in a world where only the Light existed to begin with? Why would showing compassion or respect be of any importance if everyone's belief would lie within the Light?

There would be no conflicts whatsoever, neither in a personal level within one's mind, nor between individuals or nations. There would be nothing. Light would automatically cease to exist as such, as there would no longer be a purpose for its existence.

Some may call that boring. I will call it insufficient, since nothing ever transpires from an eternally unchangeable variable. If nothing would ever change and everything would remain the same, if there would be no conflicts whatsoever, there would be an absolute standstill in everything; which would automatically mean the complete absence of evolution, development or progression.

It always has been and always will be the clashes of two or more forces that give birth to all the above. They provide a constant change though which things in people's minds, a community, a nation or the entire universe come to be. Wars for example. They always seem so violent and unnecessary, a pointless waste of lives only thanks to a conflict. However, the consequences of a war can easily beacon the beginning of a new era, one whose people have drawn conclusions from said violent past and have evolved to a point beyond that, with an enriched knowledge that will contribute to improvement.

Even from the point of view of a single individual, the constant conflicts that are happening within a person's mind between virtues, desires, principles, wishes, responsibilities and so on are those who contribute the most to the person's development as a being. How is that not profitable, even if it seems arduous and sometimes painful?

What I tried to explain is why and how I believe life would suffer at the absence of the Shadow, or any other major notion that contrasts another for that matter. I might have gotten carried away a bit though...I need sleep -_-

Anjelica, because of you, we now have a pretty epic discuission going on right 'ere...

Thank you for your reply Mandui, it was a interesting read. It certainly explained what I asked.

The only thing I wish to comment to is that if you force help down someone's throat you're not following the extreme of Light. You're actually breaking the virtue of respect (which states that you should respects other peoples wishes, among others) and thus not following the Light at all (since all virtues are of equal importance after all). Hence why I was confused by why balance was needed, since the Light teaches to apply it in moderation itself. In essence... if you follow the Light, you apply balance between the virtues.

Other than that, the view you presented is very zoroastrian. Very interesting. That life is defined by the struggle between the duality of good/evil, Light/Shadow and whatnot.

I think my view on Light/shadow is more Taoistic/Buddistic in approach (meaning that just trying to live in accordance to one virtue is a monumental task, let alone all three).

*tokes heavily, smiling*

Elízabéth Moren wrote:Anjelica, because of you, we now have a pretty epic discuission going on right 'ere...

very true!

I'd like to raise another question about light/shadow. How do the individual races see it, or how would they greet kin using shadow? Apologies if this is a tangent but there's some very informed people here

I've just race-changed an alt to a Draenei, and I've read that they have such an understanding and history of the Light, thanks to the intervention of the Na'aru, that they don't even need the three values to live by, living with the Light on a deeper level. Is their perception of the Light radically different than what Humans/Dwarves would see it? They have been influenced by it for so long after all. Got no clue how to react to a shadow Draenei yet... What kind of reactions do you normally get Mandui? *curious*

Also, what about Nelves, is a Holy priest even using the same Light? (This always confused me as I settled on the 'their powers = from Elune' school of thought) Citing the changing faces of the moon to show that shadow and light were both necessary in the world.

Pass it to the left now Gruff *nods*

I think it's safe to assume the night elf holy priests (and perhaps disc priests as well), draw upon the being called Elune for their divine power. It's been canonically proven that Elune exists in some capacity and is able to interfere directly in the world (such as when she surrounded Tyrande with an impenetrable shield during the war of the ancients).

Whether Elune has some connection to the Light can only be speculated on.

Tauren in Cataclysm will begin to follow Elune's counterpart in Tauren lore, the Sun Goddess (I forget the name) as well, and she will be the source of power for Tauren priests and paladins. We don't know either whether this will be the actual Light, or a similar arrangement to what we know of Elune at the moment. If it is confirmed that the Sun Goddess is part of the Light, then that might imply that Elune is as well.

It's the same thing with troll priests. Putting aside Zabra Hexx' embracing of the Light, they seem to be firmly associated with the Loa too, regardless of whether they use light or shadow spells ingame. WoW just doesn't handle representing very different religions well with only one class for them all (it'd be a start if they at least renamed some of the more blatant spells and talents for night elves and trolls).

It could be seen that The Light and its counterpart The Shadow are "all". Literally, everything and nothing. Above Chaos (possibly chaos is both light and shadow, possibly it is the gap between them, or the bit that was left over when they were made, or the bit that existed before they were created), Arcane, anything else. They are the dust that everything is made from.

They transcend the gods. Or possibly, they make them. Or they are the power the gods can tap into themselves. And we tap into that power through the gods though we may call it by a different name.

That's one idea. And as for Night Elves/Tauren. Moon/Sun, Elune/whateverthedeity is called. It's the same symbol for each race really. For the Night Elves the Moon IS the light, for the Tauren the Sun is the same. And in reality, it is the same thing. Whether it is called Elune or another name. The lifegiving Light that nurtures and protects.

A hero with a thousand faces. You know... stuff.

*passes to the left*

I should add, Tauren mythology has both Elune (under another name, Muisha, I think) as the Moon Goddess and their own Sun Goddess (Aisha, I think), which doesn't exist in night elven mythology.

Chaos is purely mechanical derived and created through the means of generators. It's closest relative comparison is that of Electron Magnetic. It is however highly dangerous and has the capacity to be detrimentally descructive and nothing in relation to Light and Shadow. Your highest form of 'dark magic' would be that of Fel Magic.

Ref: http://www.wowwiki.com/Chaos_energy

Also see http://www.wowwiki.com/Magic for general overviews on relations between differing magical schools and origins.

I know they have Muisha/Elune. But just because they have the moon, doesn't mean the Moon and Sun deities can just be symbolic of the Light.

The Tauren are a nomadic people, in touch, deeply, with nature and the world. The Sun and Moon cycle is very important to any people who work with the land like that. Lets face it, the Tauren are closely modelled on a number of Native American peoples. And the Sun/Moon cycle is very, very important to a number of those tribal beliefe systems.

I don't have the info to hand, but I'm pretty sure that a number of early belief systems in the Americas also had the Sun/Moon deities as one in the same, two sides of the same person, or brothers/sisters etc. They are, in a way, the same being. Because "all" they are is the Light. The disc in the sky that guides us and protects us and shines upon us (giving us power, life etc).

Both the Sun and Moon also cast a Shadow. They also Light our path through the Dark (Shadow).

The Sun rises and chases away the night. But as it does, the Shadow on the world grows longer and longer. As the Sun settles highest in the sky the Shadow on Azeroth are, in a way, at their longest. So the shadow is always there - even when the Sun (Light) seems most powerful.

And then the Sun sets, and the Shadow moves, skyward, and all around. It becomes the Darkness of night. Only, as always in this balance, this battle, it is illuminated by the Light (of the Moon), and the magic of the stars.

Chaos was probably the wrong term as "magic" then. But you see what I mean?

Calisar wrote:
I've just race-changed an alt to a Draenei, and I've read that they have such an understanding and history of the Light, thanks to the intervention of the Na'aru, that they don't even need the three values to live by, living with the Light on a deeper level. Is their perception of the Light radically different than what Humans/Dwarves would see it? They have been influenced by it for so long after all. Got no clue how to react to a shadow Draenei yet... What kind of reactions do you normally get Mandui? *curious*

I believe that the Draenei in specific do have a different sort of understanding when it comes to the Light, the Shadow, what's right and what's wrong, good and evil. The Draenei are indeed the Na'aru's blessed, thusly a lot closer to the Light than any other race could be. At the same time however, and after taking a look at their history as a nation, they are the closest a race could ever get to the Legion as well, the reason why they developed an inherited resistance towards the Shadow (see passive racial). Logically seen, provided a certain awareness of the lack of resources from the lore itself regarding this matter, one can only naturally assume that a being which has been this close to both the Light and the Shadow can a lot easier comprehend their nature.

Unfortunately this is something that many people neglect or refuse to accept ICly as well as OOCly, since they focus a lot more to the Na'aru part of the Draenei history. More often than not people claim that a Draenei should not be able to wield both of them.

I've encountered people who even confused the Shadow with necromancy or demonology, claiming that it's the one and very same sort of magic, although the Shadow doesn't depend on the sacrifice of life or the summoning of demonic powers in order to function properly. I can see why this can be misinterpreted as such, for the Shadow is widely used by the Legion, the Scourge, warlocks and death knights with the solemn reason to destroy.

The argument stating that "The enemy is using this power among others in order to inflict suffering and death, makes the power itself evil" is weak and poorly supported by any rationality, especially in the case of a Draenei for the above mentioned reasons. The use of a dagger by a murderer, among other weapons he might use, doesn't necessarily make the dagger itself a fatal weapon and nothing more. It can still be used to simply peel an apple or even to cut the restraints of someone who's been forcefully bound and needs help. What matters ultimately is the wielder and the way he/she uses the tool laying in his/her hand.

I'm more or less used to being ICly and OOCly accused for openly admitting the use of Shadow. I think Mandui is as well, although she still hopes that people will take a closer look before irrationally accuse her of being a vixen. I'm fairly aware of Mandui's personality, her capabilities and her true nature, since I did create the character myself. She will keep being accused for things she never was and never will be, but that's a price I'm willing to pay, even if many of those conflicts wander beyond the IC barriers and turn into OOC ones.