Using both shadow and holy

Sure. As long as we understand they're defined by their opposition to the other.

There's no consensus on the topic of shadow and light divine magic, but it has been described that in order to draw upon either source, one has to actively embrace the virtues of that discipline. So, for example, to draw upon the light, you have to be kind, generous, self-less - motivated by the clichedly "right" reasons. Or at least one or some of them.

Similarly to draw upon the shadow (as a divine magic, not as an arcane, illusionary, etc), you need to be a bastard. You have to be selfish, and greedy. You shouldn't care about the suffering of others, and quite possibly enjoy it and want to cause it.

A character is not black or white though. Parts of you (or at times you) want to be kind, generous and live in accordance to the virtues of the light (something that is extremely hard in practise),
and others selfish and greedy. One could assume that in most cases divine magic users either supress the one or the other, but when attempting to find a balance between both you "possibly" attempt to draw from different sides of yourself.

It won't be easy, and in fact there is a good chance that by not allowing either to prevail you could either loose your sanity, create personality disorders... I could easily see such a character eventually develop split personalities, with the one unknown to the other, if unable to cope with that hard task.

I think that is a matter of how you see it. When it comes to Light and Shadow, I don't think there is a right and wrong. All we can agree on is that the Light is more on the good side, and the Shadow more on the egocentric side. But there are many versions of both. Taking the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow for example, it is a Shadow religion, but still keeps many of the Lights virtues.

Halya wrote:There's no consensus on the topic of shadow and light divine magic, but it has been described that in order to draw upon either source, one has to actively embrace the virtues of that discipline. So, for example, to draw upon the light, you have to be kind, generous, self-less - motivated by the clichedly "right" reasons. Or at least one or some of them.

Similarly to draw upon the shadow (as a divine magic, not as an arcane, illusionary, etc), you need to be a bastard. You have to be selfish, and greedy. You shouldn't care about the suffering of others, and quite possibly enjoy it and want to cause it.

The best justification for using both ICly is some degree of split personality disorder. But I would recommend that before you roleplay having such a condition, you actually do some research into it.


I'm going to be unpopular for saying this - but all the lore evidence indicates you can't use both types of divine magic. Not as one person, at least. You draw upon the divine power based on what you actually have faith in. If you worship the light and live by its tenets, when you draw upon divine magic, you'll draw upon the light. And if you inflict pain and suffering, are greedy, selfish, and worship the shadow, then when you draw upon divine magic, you'll draw upon the shadow. If you're a very neutral-esque character, you'd probably not draw on either.

I think a draenei could justify both purely by merit of the fact that they have been gifted the power of the light by the naaru. Their personality could make them a shadow worshipper while they draw upon the gift that they were born with/gifted in their lives.

That's the thing about it being hard to fulfill the requirements for channeling both. The caster would have to be able to slip from different frames of mind and willfully convince themselves of the rightness of certain values, possibly suppressing their own natural beliefs, and then slip out of those convictions afterwards. It does imply a whole lot of psychological baggage for the person doing this, and I'd be surprised if there weren't some very deep-set issues in the people walking this path, even if they don't necessarily show it.

To briefly draw in my own character as an example, Saevir's beliefs contains values that could apply to both light and shadow, and he suppresses parts of his beliefs as necessary when channeling. Having used it more, and having his natural beliefs lean more toward using it, his affinity lies mainly with the shadow, however, noble as his intentions may seem.

Mandui wrote:

Ledgic/Omanos wrote:

grufftoof wrote:As Saevir says, someone could utilise both. Though this could make for interesting RP, as someone strives to balance the too sides, knowing without one there isn't the other, for instance?

It's a lot less cliché than an inner demon as well, admittedly. Being in a constant strugge to balance the two effectively would be interesting.

Quite. The strife to keep both those balanced can be very interesting for the development of a character as it is, without including anything additional like demons or personality disorders.

However, comprehending the Shadow alone to the extend required in order for the wielder to not fall into corruption, is something that takes decades, if not a lot longer. Comprehending both aspects equally and trying to balance between them is naturally even more demanding. That would most certainly take at least a few centuries to achieve, and even then, it still depends entirely on the wielder to keep said balance or succumb to the Shadow's corruption.

The Shadow is purely egocentric and offensive, as already mentioned, whereas the Light is the opposite. I'd imagine that the few who can wield both of them on their own and without any external influences or abnormal states of being (like the presence of a demon or a personality disorder, as mentioned here by the OP), are not only a few centuries old but they also have an affinity to one of them more than the other, despite the never ending struggle for balance. This may fluctuate and change from time to time, depending on several factors and/or the condition of the wielder's psyche during certain periods of her/his life.

For these reasons, I can't easily imagine a human, or any other race with the life span of only a few decades, being able to achieve this without having some sort of "issue". I think that both the demon and the personality disorder could function as the catalyst in order to wield both of them for at least a while. However, since the wielder is obviously lacking the true knowledge about the Shadow and how to consciously master it, the demon would sooner or later manage to "trick" her and make her fall into corruption.

Nice explanation.

Saevir wrote:
That's the thing about it being hard to fulfill the requirements for channeling both. The caster would have to be able to slip from different frames of mind and willfully convince themselves of the rightness of certain values, possibly suppressing their own natural beliefs, and then slip out of those convictions afterwards. It does imply a whole lot of psychological baggage for the person doing this, and I'd be surprised if there weren't some very deep-set issues in the people walking this path, even if they don't necessarily show it.

To briefly draw in my own character as an example, Saevir's beliefs contains values that could apply to both light and shadow, and he suppresses parts of his beliefs as necessary when channeling. Having used it more, and having his natural beliefs lean more toward using it, his affinity lies mainly with the shadow, however, noble as his intentions may seem.

This. That's why I said it'd take long for someone to achieve it.

Looking up cognitive dissonance is a good way to find out more about this concept. (It's basically the same thing, minus the discomfort and resolution)

Saihna/Julia wrote:I think that is a matter of how you see it. When it comes to Light and Shadow, I don't think there is a right and wrong. All we can agree on is that the Light is more on the good side, and the Shadow more on the egocentric side. But there are many versions of both. Taking the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow for example, it is a Shadow religion, but still keeps many of the Lights virtues.

It all boils down to faith. I'd say the Scarlet Crusade is an excellent example of this. Their members could very clearly draw from the Light, even though their actions were in clear conflict with the teachings of the Three Virtues they claimed to uphold. However, according to their own twisted logic they were the paragons of good. They would torture and kill, and to them it was the right thing to do. Their victims would be free of the taint of evil and saved that way.

It was this faith that their obviously evil deeds were all for the good that allowed them to channel the power of Light despite everything.
Light and Shadow are very much black and white concepts. It's the users that wander into the grey areas.

Lini wrote:

Saihna/Julia wrote:I think that is a matter of how you see it. When it comes to Light and Shadow, I don't think there is a right and wrong. All we can agree on is that the Light is more on the good side, and the Shadow more on the egocentric side. But there are many versions of both. Taking the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow for example, it is a Shadow religion, but still keeps many of the Lights virtues.

It all boils down to faith. I'd say the Scarlet Crusade is an excellent example of this. Their members could very clearly draw from the Light, even though their actions were in clear conflict with the teachings of the Three Virtues they claimed to uphold. However, according to their own twisted logic they were the paragons of good. They would torture and kill, and to them it was the right thing to do. Their victims would be free of the taint of evil and saved that way.

It was this faith that their obviously evil deeds were all for the good that allowed them to channel the power of Light despite everything.
Light and Shadow are very much black and white concepts. It's the users that wander into the grey areas.

Nicely said. I like the 'grey' metaphor. I've learned a lot from asking this question, I'd like to thank everyone in advance!

Saihna/Julia wrote:

Ledgic/Omanos wrote:

grufftoof wrote:As Saevir says, someone could utilise both. Though this could make for interesting RP, as someone strives to balance the too sides, knowing without one there isn't the other, for instance?

It's a lot less cliché than an inner demon as well, admittedly. Being in a constant strugge to balance the two effectively would be interesting.

Isn't that something alike what Mandui does? At least that's how I've understood it. Regardless, much more interesting and original indeed.

Mandui is plain evil tbfh.

I'd like to say though, that theoretically when we get into the true zealotry side of it light and dark become very blurred (usually "against" the side of light) though.

So an example that shows the "blur", the "grey", of the matter, like the Scarlets (or the Inquisition, any religiously dogmatic and forceful crusader type etc) is probably a "bad" example for someone striving for balance (if that is what you want to achieve).

If a preacher was all fire and brimstone, laying on hands and shouting the word of the Light, smiting with his holy fire, wouldn't he, to those he "forcefully" shows the "error" of their faith be wrong? Evil even maybe? Corrupted quite possibly.

The same was hinted at above for the "torturing" Scarlet. Someone sure of his right, the right of the Light, using his powers (mind vision maybe? a mind sear, mind flay (as they are described as spells)) to get that confession, to show someone's heresy, or "evil".

The description and feel of the spells is important here I guess I mean. What Mind Sear, Mind Flay, Shadow Words represent. If you knew the word of life, a word that the Light had "taught" you (the "spark" of life), well, maybe the opposite of the holy words for resurrection etc would be your/the Shadow Word: Death?

Like the DnD spells I guess Cure/cause wounds. That which can harm, maybe shows you that which can heal? Much of "real" religion points to this, a few twisted words or changed incantations and a holy sermon becomes as seance. Maybe your character would understand the power between the two worlds of worlds...

And find it hard to toe the "line" between them? or strive to the path of light, but never fear the hand of darkness (fighting fire with fire)?

Dunno if these even fit with the "world" of light and shadow really... just thoughts. Gruff is an anamoly for me in a way. He was always "meant" to be a warlock. But that wasn't possible for a psychotic tinker troll (first choice background, then race, next class I guess..). So he became a priest, and has always had a "goblin" view of things. If it makes him profit (in money and in power), it's worth using and learning.

Many split and different opinions and sights.


In the end, It's up to one self to determine it. What's more badass, wielding the Light or the Shadow? Or get both cakes, without any sort of consequence.

You figure.


Personally, I don't believe one should be able to wield both the powers, since they're each other's direct opposites, the manifestations of Light and Darkness. Good and Evil in the traditional, simplistic symbolism.

If you're a good aligned, Light gibbon and start to practice foul arts. Your alignment meter jumps over to the other side and you be naughty.
It's easy to fall, remarkable and nigh impossible to find redemption.

As said, it differs between people and communities. One embraces the ideal of wielding both, while the other will rage and lynch you.

Trave/Vargosh/Thandros wrote:
Mandui is plain evil tbfh.

Damn straight! I will devour your soul...and yours...and yours...*points at random people in Stormwind*

*mad cackle*

Agreeing with Mandui's point of view here on the whole shadow and light, mind frame switch.

But I think the priest class also leaves the roleplayer open to roleplaying say an illustionist, someone who can assault the mind of their foes with the use of arcane and various other mysterious magical arts. The new talents in the shadow tree seem to play more towards this idea. Shadowy Apparations, and orbs, include this idea of visual objects being summoned by the Priest as they channel. Mind flay, Mind Blast. Etc.

Perhaps if you feel your not enjoying the Light and Shadow concept as much as you thought you would, you could race change; Or maybe even keep the same charecter and roll Disc one spec, and shadow for the other. A warder who commands shielding magic; which can't accurately be called Holy magic, and who also dabbles in illusion magic, fooling his fools and attacking them from inside their head.

The above concept is my current idea for a goblin priest. Scoundrel Koblitz Retzel, Illustionist of The Bilgewater Bruisers.

" You want to give me all your gold.. " " I want to give you all my gold... "

Apologising also incase anyone thought this was abit of a derail, considering the original opening posts question has already been answered and discussed over.

The mind-manipulation is a staple part of shadow. All priests have significant strength of will (a necessary trait to maintain their beliefs in the face of resistance). Some priests simply use the light to act as beacons for the community and be an example to influence the the beliefs of others, others might use the shadow to directly impose their own beliefs about the world onto others.

Regardless of which flavor of priest it is, there's always an underlying theme of having an influence on the way other people think.

Two styles that I've seen proposed really...

Either that your character studied for a long time, hundreds of years perhaps, and could manipulate both skills (but it took incredible restraint and determination to pull it off and not lose yourself to shadow).

And then there was the sliding scale idea. One end of the bar glowing light, the other end in shadow. If you dedicate yourself to either end you are a powerful priest of that aspect, if you try to master both your stuck in the middle with no real skill or strength in either. Using the other end of the scale might actually cause you harm even.

I used to play as the first, then I read up on the second which the rp forum seemed to say was the right way.. and hell, I still don't know which I prefer. Guess I'd agree mostly with Exilius now.

Good luck with your idea

Calisar wrote:
And then there was the sliding scale idea. One end of the bar glowing light, the other end in shadow. If you dedicate yourself to either end you are a powerful priest of that aspect, if you try to master both your stuck in the middle with no real skill or strength in either. Using the other end of the scale might actually cause you harm even.

That reminds me of SWKOTOR, mean people can use more mean skills, hippy people can use more hippy skills.
http://www.gamebanshee.com/starwarskotorii/alignmentcharts.php

Where there is no light to be found, there is shadow.

I had a book of the tenants once.. The delicate paper and gold guilding..

Was the best smoking paper I ever had!

Halya wrote:Where there is no light to be found, there is shadow.

But a shadow does not exist, without the light shining.

Think of the light behind you, your body the image, the shadow another part of that. You are the reason the light becomes the shadow...

I think there is something there... maybe.

Gruft.. That's fucking deep..

I'm going to invite you over for a smoke

grufftoof wrote:

Halya wrote:Where there is no light to be found, there is shadow.

But a shadow does not exist, without the light shining.

Think of the light behind you, your body the image, the shadow another part of that. You are the reason the light becomes the shadow...

I think there is something there... maybe.

Universal balance between the two forces without which none can excist? Then again, with simple logic you can say the Shadow is just another form of the Light, why you may ask? Because of the Light shining on you, the shadow is cast thus making it the reason it excist even though the key element is the person standing there.

Imagine a universe of pure good, why would we need the Light to excist then, it will have nothing to give hope for, no foes to vanquish, no better future or virtues to pray for as everything will be good.

Imagine now a universe of pure evil, why would we need the Shadow to excist then, it will have no foes to vanquish, no virtues to pray for as everything will be evil, and no strife for power as everything will be evil.

Now, imagine our universe (Game wise) where the two are in perfect balance. Without one the other cannot excist as a religion. An example of the balance: Cult of the Damned and The Brotherhood of Light (Core of the Argent Dawn), while the first seeks to destroy and corrupt in the name of their deity namely the Lich King, the other seeks to restore the damage inflicted upon the land and its people aswell as vanquish the enemy in the name of the Light.

What I am getting at is that universally the Shadow and the Light are in constant balance, it is what the mortal followers do, that makes a difference, the moral decisions, their actions, everything in the end comes down to the people. The Light might cast the Shadow, but its because of the person who stands in its way.

grufftoof wrote:
But a shadow does not exist, without the light shining.

Think of the light behind you, your body the image, the shadow another part of that. You are the reason the light becomes the shadow...

I think there is something there... maybe.

But shadows also only exist where the light cannot reach, and as light wanes the shadows spread wider. Encompassing more than they used to until they swallow the source of the light itself as well (or vice versa).

If the metaphor that light creates shadows is supposed to work, then darkness and shadows have to be different things. Is then a room with no light covered in shadows or darkness? When the sun sets, do the world gets dark or shady? If I bring a light into a dark room, where does the darkness go? Does darkness vanish to give room to shadow when light emerges?

If light creates shadows is true, then the answers to the questions have to be "yes, there is a difference". But then... what is darkness (symbolizing), if it's not the same as shadow?

---

I want to pose a philosophical question to consider:

If Shadow were to be stopped and vanish from the world. Would we miss anything? If yes, what things?

If Shadow were to be stopped and vanish from the world. Would we miss anything? If yes, what things?

Perhaps with that, the Light will have no more reason to excist. The balance between good and evil will be destroyed, without the Shadow we will lose the Light and without the Light we will lose the sole thing that makes us human: Hope.

If Shadow were to be stopped and vanish from the world. Would we miss anything? If yes, what things?

-

It would never happen, it is literally, impossible.