Warlords of Draenor - General Discussion

Adry wrote:

Terenus wrote:We no longer have overpower, a staple ability of arms since vanilla, and we are reduced to 2 or 3 abilities that aren't cd's. On top of this, we no longer have a stun on charge - which exists so that lag means charge isn't useless, we have to stance dance like crazy, which, any warrior can tell you was frustrating as fuck because if you have the slightest bit of lag your whole timing is fucked, having to go defensive stance to spell reflect say, a chaos bolt, would mean you stance dance, there's a moment of lag - you get hit for the equivalent of 60k-100k+ chaos bolt because that lag meant you weren't able to spell reflect in time.

We no longer have bleeds, either, unless you're prot. So, killing a rogue will be much, much harder now unless you are prot. And -if- you are prot, you're not going to be dealing as much damage anyway. Overpower gone too, so if a rogue is in evasion, we basically have nothing to use against them.

I'm not sure if you were around in WOTLK, but it's highly simillar to that. Spam auto attack, once you have enough rage, press one of the two/three dps buttons. Pop cooldowns for burst every three minutes.
The worst change to this isn't just that warriors are weaker and will no longer be picked for RBGs, but they are far more boring now to play and that Blizzard has disregarded the last six odd years of developing the class.
Frankly, I'm not sure about you, but I don't enjoy pressing the same 2/3 buttons for a rotation.

• Overpower has been removed because of the lack of Dodge and Parry
  
• There is no way in hell you'll keep a readily available non-DR stun while every CC in the game is being nerfed. This only makes sense
  
• The game won't be balanced around lag
  
• Stances aren't on the GCD, and Chaos Bolt has a 12 year long cast time. If you miss that, you're either bad or you need a new internet connection
  
• Rogues are getting nerfed too
  
• These kinds of strange changes are happening across the board to all classes, including my beloved Hunter. Making such negative presumptions at such an early point (alpha, hellooooo) isn't smart because 100% of it is all subject to change still anyway
  

And yes, I was around in Wrath. In fact I've been playing since Vanilla. And I've recently swapped from maining Hunter to Warrior, and heck, I welcome these changes and the change of pace they'll bring.

I swapped from warrior to hunter, and then, like you, hunter to warrior too, I've played since vanilla too, and hell, every warrior I've spoken to, and even those who aren't realizes these changes are not beneficial.

And if you think the game isn't, or won't be balanced around lag, you're naive. That was the very reason charge had a stun put on it in the first place, and the reason spell reflection was able to be used in any stance. Chaos bolt's 6 second cast time is ages, yeah, I rarely fail to not spell reflect it - yet when you're stunned, you come out of the stun, you have what, two seconds to switch stances and reflect, if you add lag into that - you'll miss it. And this goes for most of the quicker spells out of stun as well.

And yeah, rogues are getting nerfed too, yet that hardly means we'll be able to kill them. We have no bleeds - unless you're prot - and thus can't keep them from just escaping into stealth constantly.
Also, these strange changes are happening across the board - but changing a class so fundamentally from what it was, and sending it back 6 years isn't a good idea. Reducing abilities is fine, but not when you reduce a class to using two or three abilities for DPS, and auto attacking with the slowest weapons in the game for rage. That's fucking boring. I was around when that was the case, it's awful. You act like this is some new, groundbreaking change. It isn't, it's going -backwards- and it was boring as shit. Yes, it is subject to change. Everything is subject to change, but that doesn't mean we can't complain about backwards decisions.
And overpower served more purpose than just dodge and parry, it was a damage dealing ability too - it'd always crit if you'd reforged etc properly. Granted, reforging is gone, but it would still be a near constant crit with mastery. It was also more rage efficient than slam, as well as being a staple of the spec.
And nor was I complaining about disarm being gone - it's the fact we're losing every ability but our cooldowns virtually, and keeping 2 or 3 for dps. Which is fucking boring. That, is my point. You may still have the nostalgic view of vanilla and stance dance, but I remember it -very well-. It is shit, it was shit, and at the time it was complained about to all hell.

Overpower has been removed because of the lack of Dodge and Parry

Dodge and Parry still exists and is tied to str/agi as they always have been. The only change is that dodge/parry rating won't exist on gear, which makes it a non-change in PVP as no PVP gear had those stats anyways.

Overpower hasn't been tied to dodge since TBC in effect. Taste For Blood has been the overpower mechanic since WLK.

And yes, I was around in Wrath. In fact I've been playing since Vanilla. And I've recently swapped from maining Hunter to Warrior, and heck, I welcome these changes and the change of pace they'll bring.

These changes won't bring warriors to the level of skill they had in WLK. No active rage generation abilities(Mortal strike, shouts, bloodrage) means rage is gonna be 100% passive. I could see them removing the rage generation from charge to keep it in line with these changes. If they do that, rage is gonna be slow energy, pretty much. This is going to feel clunky at best.

And if you think the game isn't, or won't be balanced around lag, you're naive. That was the very reason charge had a stun put on it in the first place, and the reason spell reflection was able to be used in any stance. Chaos bolt's 6 second cast time is ages, yeah, I rarely fail to not spell reflect it - yet when you're stunned, you come out of the stun, you have what, two seconds to switch stances and reflect, if you add lag into that - you'll miss it. And this goes for most of the quicker spells out of stun as well.

The game was never balanced around the assumption that you have that much lag. The Spell Reflect change was to keep it in line with every single other warr ability that lost its stance requirement in MOP. The charge stun was because in Vanilla, you could jump charge. Also, because if it hadn't stopped people's movement, you could just keep running while the warrior would fall behind because he stops, even if just for a split second, at the end of his charge. It's kept its stun throughout the game's lifespan simply because it had the stun in vanilla.

Also, they changed the way ability casts are handled in WOD, (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/318876-warlords-of-draenor-theorycraft-discussion/#post114) which should make for a much more responsive feel to abilities.

In the end, these changes will all come down to how well they tune rage gen on auto attacks.

These kinds of strange changes are happening across the board to all classes, including my beloved Hunter. Making such negative presumptions at such an early point (alpha, hellooooo) isn't smart because 100% of it is all subject to change still anyway

This is absolute bullshit. Let's say I'm about to drop a bomb, and you don't want me to drop it, but you can't tell me not to because I haven't dropped the bomb yet.

You complain about the bomb -before- it hits. Otherwise, you're gonna be dealing with recovering from the bomb blast.

haha

Spoiler:

man, this is going to be an image i'm going to like.

that said; Lol such warrior angst terenus, Let me taste your tears.

hearing whining from people that haven't even tested the changes, makes me all giddy.

Yeah, lol, people discussing things in a forum thread dedicated to discussing those exact things. Let's make fun of those sillies.

Fuck off, oh my god.

I will make fun of it, when people approach the discussion with an air of: OH MY GOD, THEY'VE RUINED IT, THEYVE RUINED IT. because it is funny. and I like being amused, so please continue,

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:Yeah, lol, people discussing things in a forum thread dedicated to discussing those exact things. Let's make fun of those sillies.

Fuck off, oh my god.

Don't get mad for some neutral mockery! Think it as adverts!

Personaly I don't see the problem, just more kills for me :>

No, but really, why do we have to start bitching about something getting difficult? This game is far to easy and it is good to see Blizzard is finally stomping the hoof in the ground and say, "NO!"

Also I would like to point out that this is still the alpha. Most of what you see now is going to change, hell look at the healers currently! Everything is casting right now and it is getting really slow!

Difficult isn't the point. If anything, this playstyle means warriors get even more bursty than they are currently. It's gonna be just as easy as always. Macro def stance to spell reflect, hammer 60 rage execute.

It's not gonna get harder. It's gonna get slower and clunkier, what with our cheapest rage dump costing 30 rage (whereas right now Mortal Strike is free and overpower costs 10 rage)

Also I would like to point out that this is still the alpha. Most of what you see now is going to change, hell look at the healers currently! Everything is casting right now and it is getting really slow!

Fuck. Off. Everybody knows it's alpha. Why can't we discuss the alpha? Tell you what, everything that you see on live is going to change eventually. Fuck, everything you see in the world is subject to change eventually. So from now on, you can't discuss anything in the world because it's not permanent. See how that works? Everybody posting in this thread knows that the patch notes are gonna change before release, but we can't very well discuss the patch notes that we'll get at release, can we? Because they're not here yet. Meanwhile, Blizzard released -THESE- patch notes, and that's what we're gonna discuss.

Who cares if it's alpha.

warrior qq really is just... its the best.

I'm not telling anyone to stop arguing between each other, I'm enjoing this conversation to much for that. What I am saying is that we don't have to be rude while doing it.

Hmm... well placeholder models obviously for some of the characters... although it does bring up an interesting conflict of historical interests for some involved. May we even see history repeated here?

Spoiler:

Lexgrad wrote:warrior qq really is just... its the best.

I'm hardly QQing. I know you're just trolling, but I'll just address this actually.

I am not delusional enough to think that warriors aren't ridiculously OP in the current patch. There are a number of issues with the class that make it just completely broken. These are things that need to be fixed in order for the class to step down from its god tier pedestal.

The changes that I'm complaining about do nothing to fix any of these issues.

Let's start with their survivability: Currently, warriors have 25% damage reduction at no cost, passively (defensive stance) that reduces rage generation tremendously but otherwise does nothing to prevent me from sitting it 24/7 while pooling rage to kill somebody in a stun. This is an issue. 25% reduction, that's the same amount as the main defensive CD of resto druids(barkskin), and mine is -permanent-. Warriors shouldn't be able to sit in defensive stance without it gimping their damage aswell. These changes do nothing to address that. In fact, I think even at 50% rage gen, warriors are still going to have more rage in def stance in WOD than they do currently.

Currently, warriors also have way too many defensive CDs that are way too effective at stopping damage. Shield Wall, 40% reduction for 12 sec. Rallying cry, 20% bonus HP for 10 sec. Die by the sword, effectively super-immune to melee attackers (+20% damage reduction) for 8 sec. Add do that, warriors have a lot of mobliity, which allows them to kite very well even after all these CDs are spent. A good warrior is currently absolutely near unkillable.

In WOD, arms warrs are losing access to shield wall. This is a step in the right direction, however I really would rather see them slapping a damage reduction debuff back onto defensive stance so warriors legitimately can't sit in it and still do lots of damage.

Another issue with the current iteration of the warrior class is how bursty they are. Just a few moments ago in an arena game I stunned a paladin at 60% HP and killed him so fast he didn't even have time to bubble. The changes that I'm complaining about actually make this problem even worse. We lose overpower, our cheapest rage dump, and slam, our main rage dump, only to have their damage baked into colossus smash, execute and mortal strike. If they tune warriors to work in the model they're presenting in the patch notes, warrior damage is going to be even more spiky and bursty than it already is. Who here can honestly say that they want that? Even burstier warriors than we already have?

Then there's the CC, of course. Warriors historically filled the niche of a mobile melee DPS with high defensive capabilities but limited CC. Currently, the CC warriors have is simply too much. When I'm killing a healer, I can pummel and lock him for 4 seconds, followed by 4 seconds of storm bolt, 2 seconds of shockwave, 8(untill it breaks) seconds of fear, followed by another pumel. Furthermore, I can also charge twice to interrupt his casts. This leaves at least 15 seconds where the healer -can't cast anything- because I'm locking him out completely.

Now, Blizzard -are- making efforts to reduce the amount of CC that warriors have. We're losing disarm. Fear is 6 seconds instead of 8. Storm bolt and Shockwave are gonna be on the same tier. All these changes, I agree with. Because they're going to make the game feel better as a whole, even if the warrior class is weakened. What I don't want, though, is a model where I can only use damaging abilities once every 4-6 seconds depending on my auto attacks and wether they crit. The changes they're implementing, with no cheap rage dumps and only 3 damaging abilities in your rotation (all of them 30 rage or higher) are going to make the warrior feel clunky and unresponsive. Not weaker, because their damage is going to come even more in spikes than it currently is.

Finally, all you people yelling "lol warrior QQ" seem to forget that warrior is not the only class that I play. I also have a druid, a DK, a rogue, a hunter, a mage and a monk, and if warriors lose their appeal I can just swap to one of those. Furthermore, I have a shaman and a paladin at 85 and the last 2 classes (priest and warlock) sitting at level 80. Rerolling is absolutely a non-issue for me, and I absolutely will reroll if warriors end up feeling as clunky as it seems like they will with these changes. I just want warriors to be fun. I don't care if they're OP. I can just reroll to the next OP class if they're not.


TL;DR: I want warriors to be fun. Not to be OP. I agree with nerfing them to be more on level with other classes, but that's not what the changes I highlighted are accomplishing.

All these changes are being made with a bigger picture in mind. Don't judge them until you're actually played that bigger picture.

If you're so against discussing Warlords of Draenor alpha patch notes, perhaps you should browse other areas of the forum than the Warlords of Draenor discussion thread.

I'm here for the pretty pictures <3

So. Maiev and Garona, huh? That's a fun match-up.

I like how some people in this thread are trying to turn this expansion into Fight Club.

Rule Number One:- You do not talk about WoD!

Rule Number Two:- You do NOT talk about WoD!

Though by the looks of it, their seems to be some new rules added to this WoD fight club.

New Rule:- Ridicule the people with legitimate concerns about the expansion.
New Rule:- Attempt to Placate them with "It's only Alpha bro"
New Rule:-Trolling is allowed, but only by Amaryl and Lexgrad. No one else.
New Rule:- "You've not even play tested it yet" is a legtimate arguement to stop all discussion of the things that need to be discussed or are relevant to the thread topic.

Warriors as a 2 Dps buttons rotation class outside of talented abilities does not sound interesting, the arms warrior rotation was already pretty tame and predictable to begin with the only things making warriors interesting was their ability to be mobile and command the battlefield.

Hopefully they'll replace the 2 moves lost with something new to fit their new plan for warriors and with that create a new rotation that may be dynamic and fun to use -HOPEFULLY-, but im not looking forward to the idea that Arms will be reduced potentially to 2 buttons nor do i think any other Arms warrior player is looking forward to them it's looking odd to everyone who has mained or alted a warrior so far from what i've seen and heard of it.

On the topic of warrior changes though their really isn't anything new that can be added to what Terenus or Ixirar say, some of the changes don't look good and some are questionable on the outcome of them making the game more responsive, if they pull it off then great if not then...well shit. And im not looking forward to the idea of Auto-attacks+Talent moves to generate rage for Collossus smash and Mortal strike, I mean no one else would be jumping for joy if it were happening to their class and nobody likes doing nothing for a 5-8 seconds.

Inb4 "It's Alpha, you haven't play-tested it yet"

P.S You can tell who gets owned by warriors in this thread, not naming any names here <_<

Awww yeah, that shadowmoon preview went better then expected! Not only do the Draenei get a giant Karabor, they also get three other locations! That means plenty of space to role-play in for Alliance players, at least in Shadowmoon valley.

I'm really itching to find out what this "started experience" is in the Talaan jungle, and what that means for how our characters will arrive in Shadowmoon valley in-character.

People should definitely discuss shit like these patch-nodes, because that's fun; It is interesting to think about the effect these changes will have. However, when people read the changes and their reaction is: Nooooo, now everything is ruined, they've nerfed. why didn't blizzard whine and dine me first? That's simply funny.

What it ultimately looks like is this: There was too much shit. too many spells, too many abilities, too many cooldowns. too many CCs. so what is blizzard doing? They're reducing it by a fucking lot- probably to see how far they can scale it down and still make it fun. I'm expecting to see plenty of fine-tuning.

That said; I'm speaking from a position, where it is impossible to make an experience of ability using that's worse than what I leveled in, where the most efficient rotation was auto-attack + alt-tab. So I can hardly ever be dissapointed.

To be honest I was pretty annoyed when I read Word of Glory and spells like that are getting a cast time; But it fits perfectly well in the grand design that they're trying to accomplish for WoD, and the broad strokes of their design look very good and exciting.

Amaryl wrote:People should definitely discuss shit like these patch-nodes, because that's fun; It is interesting to think about the effect these changes will have. However, when people read the changes and their reaction is: Nooooo, now everything is ruined, they've nerfed. why didn't blizzard whine and dine me first? That's simply funny.

What it ultimately looks like is this: There was too much shit. too many spells, too many abilities, too many cooldowns. too many CCs. so what is blizzard doing? They're reducing it by a fucking lot- probably to see how far they can scale it down and still make it fun. I'm expecting to see plenty of fine-tuning.

That said; I'm speaking from a position, where it is impossible to make an experience of ability using that's worse than what I leveled in, where the most efficient rotation was auto-attack + alt-tab. So I can hardly ever be dissapointed.

And again, I am not complaining about warriors being weak in WOD. I absolutely know they will have to be weaker than they are right now (inb4 DK season). I'm saying that the rotation we're gonna be getting in WOD is going to feel really clunky. For all I know, Blizzard can push this rotation to live and -still- tune warriors to be OP as hell and I won't play the class because -the rotation as it's presented in these notes is going to feel really bad to play around-.

I really don't need my class to be OP to have fun playing it. Hell, I played a resto druid in s9 and 10, for those of you who remember what Rdruid felt like in cata. But what I'm addressing in this thread has nothing to do with being OP. At all. So -please-, stop this "warriors are gonna be fine stop QQing" parade. I know they'll probably be fine. I don't care if they'll be viable. I want them to not become a 2button spec.

erwtenpeller wrote:I'm here for the pretty pictures <3

That and any usefull uppdates on WoD and SPriests which reminds me. Devoiring Plague needs 3 shadow orbs now.

erwtenpeller wrote:To be honest I was pretty annoyed when I read Word of Glory and spells like that are getting a cast time; But it fits perfectly well in the grand design that they're trying to accomplish for WoD, and the broad strokes of their design look very good and exciting.

Doesn't sound like great currently with their planing.

Worst. Caster. Ever.

Three minutes in and he's done nothing but complain, without actually explaining anything.

At four minutes he starts explaining, but doesn't say why he thinks those changes are bad.

At five minutes in, he finally starts giving some real information.

I'm not convinced the things he mentions are bad things. I understand why Blizzard is making these changes, and I'm pretty excited to see them in action myself.

Blizz stated that healing is going to be less spammy and instant casting already.

Which will feel like nerfs, but it's what they want. And probably part of a bigger picture.