Re: The current value of Money In Characterly?

by **erwtenpeller** Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:06 pm

Another stunning reply. I have nothing to add.

by **Paia/Jenit** Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:11 pm

Amaryl wrote:
5. who says man on dragon is OOC, or questline is? I don't

Hell, if a man on a dragon flies down and starts actually engaging with me in character I'm not going to ignore him outright. I might not approve of his choice of mount but I'm not going to blanket ignore him for choosing it. I'll ignore him if he's not engaging with me but the moment he starts actively interacting with me in the world I will interact back. The only exception is if the person in question is making an effort to be actively annoying on an OOC level, in which case I'll ignore him because I don't want to be annoyed.

I might not want to seek out that person again, but I won't just ignore them outright.

Also, Vaell, consider that people might not have respond to your points, such that they are, because they are addressed by others already (say, Amaryl) in a fashion which is satisfactory.

by **Lexgrad** Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:19 pm

Why not just RP chars, a poor char is poor, a rich char is rich and if you dont want economics in your char have a middleground?

Ultimately I dont think wow is the best medium for economic roleplay but meh.

Also nurf warriors.

by **Thelos** Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:26 pm

Vaell wrote:Thelos, you dived in with your copy & paste "I have my finger in my brother's bum so I'll ignore the points at hand and write an argument about how we're all Rpers and we do it in our own way!". At least Amaryl actually addressed the points!

I refuse to engage into proper argument with you, because you are a sophist that uses cheap tricks to win an argument. It's impossible to properly discuss anything with a person like yourself, who is only in it to win it.

by **Vaell** Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:29 pm

They haven't been simple reductions, they're applying your logic to the world as a whole. I have brought up a series of examples to why it makes little sense in... well, any situation.

You're just going...
"I use the in game gold as a currency."
"So what about the homeless?"
"Not applying it to that."
"So what about the weight?"
"Not important."
"So what about the fact it's worth several goldmines?"
"Not important."
"So what about the fact that gold, a precious stone by WoW lore, is inflating due to being able to kill respawnable mobs etc?"
"Not important."
"So what about a class system?"
"Not important."
"So what is important?"
"I GET 2 USE MY PROFESHONS! XD"

Bare in mind, you kill Joe Bloggs and he drops 2g. He'll respawn soon after and you'll kill him again. We know that this is an OOC mechanic.

1. Exactly! It's entirely broken. You're limiting role-play by only allowing people who have spent time grinding be at the top. With the currency system provided in the first post, you can create top end adventurers/nobles just as easily as you can create a two-copper beggar. I've rarely come across people that abuse the system because there is little point in doing so. It allows for you to truly appreciate currency in the world.

2. Is it lazyness to only want to role-play? How is that lazy? I mean, that's what the community is fundamentally about. Why waste weeks doing something I don't want to do just to play a character IC? 99% of role-players will never oppose it so there is little point. The majority of RPers are open to you playing what you want, within reason, as long as you're creating a stronger sense of immersion which is the basis for role-play.

3. That's true. I'll drop this point as I'm sure WoW has an answer for it, albeit probably a terribly poor one.

4. I am picking and choosing but through common sense and not for personal benefit. It's incredibly clear what is meant as game mechanics and what isn't. It just comes across as those who take their OOC gold ICly are doing it as a sort of "self-reward" system for putting in the 'hard' work. I'm merely poking holes in it because it has more than a cheesegrater.

5. Most people say the people hopping around on dragons and dancing on the fountains half naked are OOC. It could all be taken IC and I'm grateful to fuck it isn't. As for the questline scenario... Considering you're killing the same people as everyone else, (WoW's levelling system seems to be provided as a single player experience with multiplayer possibilities as you level up) and you're being paid for the same things as everyone else, I'd say it's OOC. Picture the quest where you find evidence for that old shaman Orc about her son being eaten by a crocolisk... If ICly everyone has collected that item and brought it back to her, it makes little sense. If questing is IC to everyone then you have two scenarios:

Everyone experiences amnesia in WoW (this one doesn't explain the respawns)
Time has been torn apart and we're in some twisted sci-fi Fringe-like world.

6. Don't get me wrong, it helps to be a higher level for PvP, more variety in armour and the ability to ride a mount. But why should a level 20 be limited to only playing weak characters? They could play a warrior who has no part in the conflict of Horde and Alliance and therefore never PvPs (other than emote fights). RP is not a competition, after all.

7. It's your fault.

I'm not in it to win, I'm in it to question. The same way you had 3 pages of several other people going "Erm, what?" - I do enjoy discussing/arguing so you'll usually find me at the forefront but that isn't simply because I'm there to win. If you can prove me wrong, such as Amaryl did with the enchanted bags, I'll admit defeat. I've never once in any situation ever heard you say you were wrong. I'm not being deceitful nor coniving, my points are clear. You're just being a used wet wipe.

by **Thelos** Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:32 pm

Thelos wrote:
I refuse to engage into proper argument with you

You can count that as a "win" if you like, Vaell.

by **Vaell** Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:35 pm

Thelos wrote:
Thelos wrote:
I refuse to engage into proper argument with you
You can count that as a "win" if you like, Vaell.

by **erwtenpeller** Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:50 pm

Vaell is really smart, Thelos. He has a far better understanding of role-play then we ever will. I think we're just blissfully ignorant in our wish to involve as many aspects of the game into our role-play as we can.

Because that's what it's about. It's not about realism, the value of gold, or people riding dragons. For me, it's about making the game fun. To me, role-playing is fun. Every aspect of the game I can involve in my role-play, makes that aspect of the game more fun for me.

I find dealing with gankers, for example, so much less frustrating when it stops being an interruption of our precious story-line, but a sudden twist. An addition that needs to be dealt with. I find it more comfortable to be asked to make a guildy some enchants in character rather then just making them and slapping them onto a mail. Suddenly, here's this normally mundane or even routine experience made more exciting by me being able to use it as character expression and development.

The value of a goldmine is completely irrelevant to my role-play. You say it produces a thousand gold? I say it produces billions. I say it produces as much as the plot requires it to.

by **Amaryl** Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:02 pm

1. I wouldn't call it completely broken, because everyone has the option to compete in exactly the same way; you're not born rich into WoW, you start at lvl 1 with no gold. and then the world is yours to conquer. In fact its more Fair than; I play a baron; kiss my ring. having all the hero's in the middle seems pretty decent actually? Yes it requires grind, and grind is boring but then that doesn't make the system unfair.

2. What 99% does, or think about has nothing to do with this equation. Ultimately its about this; I RP in this game. Or, I RP with this world, that happens to be in this game, which I distance myself from because its 'boring'. You can't actually tell me one way is better than the other. One way is preferable to you, because you don't want to grind your money, and I don't see how that's wrong. just as I don't see how using your gold as your gold being wrong, just because someone doesn't.
You can still claim to be poor, while the guy claiming to be rich knows exactly how much money he has. the number in his purse.

4. Everything in the game is a mechanic, specifically designed for a purpose. From resurrection to quests, to the character model, and outfits. You use the model, the robes, and all those aspect of the game, to enhance your RP. Other people also use the AH, and also use Proffession, and Other items useable in the world. You're picking what mechanics you like, and so does everyone else.

5. Yes you could take it all IC, some people do and ignore it ICly, just like i ignore beggars IRL. The fact is you're grateful nobody finds you an ass because you don't take them IC. You're not grateful that "the community" decides to not take them IC" Just that your opinion isn't asserted as Lollish. Which is fine. This is all about you, or me, not about what the rest thinks.

6. A level 20 is limited to what he can do. and strangely a Lvl 20 can do less than a lvl 90. this is just fact. he has less options to work with, this is just fact. He has less options to use the game into his RP this is just fact. A lvl 20 is thus limited. You may wish to remove some of those limitations through RP, because you don't enjoy grinding them away, (which is fine) but when you Rp with others you will have to find a consensus to resolve conflict, or ignore people, which ever method you prefer.

by **Quin** Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:51 pm

I pretty much stick to the charter on all of my chars across every realm. As a jew I know the value of gold, my characters wouldnt have alot of it.

by **Lexgrad** Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:21 pm

Which was my earlier point. If I was a char in the cartel then rping a lack of money or thewant for getting more is important for that RP, it defines it really. What will the cartel do or not do to survive and maybe claw a few steps forward.

For Lexgrad money is almost pointless for him, he has few needs and either as an Ebon or an Argent he has a community to help him get what he needs. Lex's RP is nothing to do with money and all to do with tragidy and a struggle with fate and faith.

My point is it is meaningless, if some want a money system it does not hurt me at all and my lask of interest on that one char does not detract from anything.

Ya'll be RPers , make it work Smile

by **Amaryl** Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:37 pm

someone made that argument on page 3 lexy, stop repeating me.

by **Lexgrad** Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:34 pm

I thought this thread needed the light of the lexadin. I will happily join in for arguing however after my raid Very Happy

by **Zalissa** Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:27 pm

Thelos wrote:
Vaell wrote:Thelos, you dived in with your copy & paste "I have my finger in my brother's bum so I'll ignore the points at hand and write an argument about how we're all Rpers and we do it in our own way!". At least Amaryl actually addressed the points!
I refuse to engage into proper argument with you, because you are a sophist that uses cheap tricks to win an argument. It's impossible to properly discuss anything with a person like yourself, who is only in it to win it.

Thelos, I think this is a bit rich considering you counter every argument with rhetorical questions, never admit wrong or show any openness to another's opinion but your own or your brothers, from what I've seen. It's more like someone isn't agreeing with everything you say and licking your butthole like so many close-minded people on this forum; so you're tossing your toys out the pram. If you put your opinion on a forum online someone is going to either agree with you or not. How is that so difficult to comprehend?

by **Coppersocket** Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:35 am

Zing!

by **erwtenpeller** Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:44 am

Oh yeah, you sure got him there! Man, he must be so embarrassed right now!

by **Vaell** Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:37 pm

Int. Thelos' Breakfast table.

Thelos sits with his hands around dry weetabix, crushing each one repeatedly before wetting them and pasting the flaked wheat to his lips. Erwt enters and shares an intimate kiss with Thelos. Amaryl watches, a stirring in his loins.

Erwt: Brother, I have a dasterdly idea!
Thelos: What is it, brother? Do tell!
Thelos wipes his hands on his dress.
Erwt: Sarcasm. Have you heard of it, brother? I read about it online.
Thelos: Do tell! DO TELL!
Erwt: You say something... but you do not mean it. You are mocking your opponent.
Thelos: That is terribly witty!
Erwt: So terribly witty!
Thelos (giggling): We're terribly witty!
Erwt (giggling): Oh so terribly witty!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll reply properly to your post in a little while, Amaryl! GTA Online calls.

by **Amaryl** Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:55 pm

Don't bother, I can't be arsed to bother anymore Razz

, just keep robbing hookers.

by **Zinkle Figgins** Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:00 pm

Well played Vaell

by **erwtenpeller** Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:02 pm

Slightly disturbing, yet amusing!

by **Lexgrad** Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:05 pm

Needed more Amaryl.

by **Zalissa** Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:06 pm

Vaell wrote: Thelos wipes his hands on his dress.

rofl

That's made me wonder actually Amaryl, do you think you can still use hookers in the online GTA? How weird would that be skulking through the bushes and stumbling upon someone in a car with one. It'd be like finding ERPers but sadder.

by **Vaell** Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:08 pm

Zalorah wrote:
Vaell wrote: Thelos wipes his hands on his dress.
rofl

That's made me wonder actually Amaryl, do you think you can still use hookers in the online GTA? How weird would that be skulking through the bushes and stumbling upon someone in a car with one. It'd be like finding ERPers but sadder.

Not to derail further, but the online isn't even working at the mo. If you can get hookers, I'm going to drop them off at friend's apartments and demand pay.

by **Paia/Jenit** Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:25 pm

On Topic, the AD forums had a post about a post about this which was actually really good, if probably somewhat excessive for a pulpy fantasy game:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8324932462

Fyne - Argent Dawn wrote:Fyne, the Iron Vulture, Argent Dawn
*26 Exactly how much does he make money a day? 15/05/2011

In search of "basic lower- or working-class NPC cost of living," I had a look at Westfall and Duskwood. Westfall comprises thematically a look at working class refugees, and so to my thinking [as usual, note those three words] should be able to stand as exemplary for lower-working-class economics. Again, notice that I do not think that elite mercenary adventurers count as typical lower working class.

A meal ["Hobo Surprise," "Well Water," and "Country Pumpkin"] clocks in at around 1s20c. Three meals a day then comes in at 3s60c. Homeless Refugees living wherever they can squat would rarely be paying for rooms to sleep, or "paying" or doing labour to maintain a house, but would likely when can, and so we won't double it, but merely round up to an even 4s for daily living expenses.* This compares to mid-eighteenth-century inn and tavern prices which would amount to about four shillings a day, with three meals and floor sleeping.** It also compares to 1801 prices for the same amounting to $1.42 per day room and board.*** Assuming that on some days one gets only two meals per day, or even goes hungry, our homeless peasant could expect to spend 1440 silver every year! That's more than 14 "gold" annually!

Moving to Duskwood, where inhabitants appear to be middle-working-class [though still well within the Working Class range, and only rarely including landlords, gentry, or other Middle- or Upper-Class sorts, we find the costs raised only slightly. A "good quality" meal [to steal a turn of phrase from the New Jersey Council of 1801] there costs 2s per meal [good bread, and milk], and so 6s for food, and 12s for room and board. This amounts for a typical Duskwood Working Class labourer, an annual income of 4380 silver, worth just under 44 "gold" per annum.

Gaining fifty gold at a go, then, would be more than a full year's expense or income for a typical Working Class citizen of most of our setting [since conveniently, prices and incomes seem to parallel across the globe]. Note that this historically DOES occasionally happen, and not only in fiction. It also makes the cost of a horse [100 silver] a rough match to historical equivalence of the late eighteenth century prices for a "yellow nag," with the eight gold cost being roughly equivalent to the "fine horse" purchased by a gentleman. Historically, of course, there is a much wider middle ground.

Upper Middle Class [minor landed gentry] might then have an annual worth of 284700 silver [almost 3000 gold], and the Upper Class [noble landed gentry] often even up to 569400 silver per annum.

With level 85 player characters who do all their dailies commensurately wealthier than that.

*source "Dr Johnson's London" by Liza Picard lists an early 1700s "typical" cost for an evening in a coffee house as 8 pence, a meal in a tavern as one shilling, weekly rent of a furnished room [no board] as 2 shillings and tuppence [also listed as daily pay for a tailor], 9 shillings as the weekly wage for a labourer, 18 shillings as the weekly wage of a tradesman. A British soldier in the 1770s was paid 10 pence per day, a captain 16 shillings and sixpence per day, and a colonel one pound, nineteen shillings (and no pence) per day.

**source Old Inns and Taverns in West Jersey, Camden County Historical Society, 1962.

*** source "Early Taverns in New Brunswick," Wm. H. Benedict, Proceedings of the New Jersey Historical Society, New Series 1918, Volume III, No. 3 (p. 137)

Basically, if you're an upper middle class skilled person you probably make about 3000 gold per annum while a typical upper class person would probably be closer to 6000 gold. This doesn't seem to include things like the value of non-liquid assets and savings, just income. He feels that about 44 gold is a years income for an agricultural labourer in a "poor" region, while a homeless bum would probably spend about 14 gold a year trying to eat.

He also notes that none of this really accounts for "Elite Mercenary Adventurers" which is what player characters are "by default". Amusingly it does put what I tend to have to hand on Paia fairly reasonable for what her IC spending power (Upper Middle Class Specialist Professional) would actually be. That said, I'm a lazy bum who doesn't work very hard on making Gold.

It also makes things like a 10,000g prize pool for a major competition seem quite reasonable, being about the equivalent of winning a major sporting event, the lottery or Who wants to be a Millionaire?. As to spending ~~hundreds~~thousands of gold on magical enchanted weapons, seems reasonable again you're buying luxury items equivalent to sports cars and top of the line military hardware.

Like all the other figures discussed it's all complete conjecture, but I enjoy the reasoning he uses on pseudo-intelelctual thought exercise level.

by **Amaryl** Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:45 pm

I really don't know, I haven't bought GTA nor am I planning to, the magic kinda waned for me after san-andreas, (not enough time, attentionspan to get through)

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