Stormwind - Guard to Citizen ratio

Jasmine wrote:Sometimes I wonder why threads turns out like this.

Hey there are only 4 pages, that's not that bad, usually these threads have 11 pages before the next day.

Most responses have been really sensible.

Tahlrana wrote:lot of the meta gaming problems, I am sorry to say, have come from the Shields.

Request to be locked. But I have to say I am a little disappointed I couldn't bring up an issue I had without people getting a tad angry with it. I did try to bring it up in the most polite manner I could.

You cant start shouting stuff like that and not expect people to feel attacked etc.

Ratio's on DB will always be fucked because we are basicly roleplaying in circles with out own alts and we're always discussing the same things and "issues" we need to move on as a whole or just accept how things go on DB.

I dont see the point of locking these threads neither though, might aswell let everyone vent to their liking rather then always smothering the discussion

Amaryl wrote:

Jasmine wrote:Sometimes I wonder why threads turns out like this.

Hey there are only 4 pages, that's not that bad, usually these threads have 11 pages before the next day.

Most responses have been really sensible.

This. Considering the line up of people posting in here, I'm surprised the volcano is as calm as it is at this point, so to speak.

I haven't been playing in a long time, I'm writing just because I had the same "problems" in the past, maybe this post can be useful.

I think the Disciples earned their guard rights, and in any case there would be no reason to take those rights away. Unless you can find IC reasons (which could even mean fabricating false accusations or framing one of them if they're interested in such a plot) I guess you'll just have to be more subtle or simply keep off the Cathedral area (which is actually their aim).

I wouldn't discuss meta-gaming issues on a forum, I'd just whisper an officer and point it out, as I would expect them to do if the situation was reversed. Keep a constant communication between sides and you won't have any problems.

In the past we've moved our hideouts all over Stormwind (and sometimes even outside the city walls) because the pressure was too high, or just to catch the guards unprepared. We've been in the Forlorn Cavern, the Dwarven District, the Park, the Mage Quarter, the Harbour, even in Darkshire for a while. I'm not suggesting to give up the DD, but consider keeping off the Shady Lady or the usual gathering spots for a while. If you think about it, that's what happens in real life when the police starts showing up too often.

Both criminals and guards have to remember they're complementary; there is no point in patrolling a city where no crimes take place, and there's definitely no fun in stealing without the risk of getting caught. I suggest to keep the best relationship possible and solve problems together, for the sake of both side's RP.

Nifty wrote:

Drustai wrote:I've always thought that TFC (and other similar organizations) would function better as a non-guild organization. Especially since you guys don't use guild chat anyway.

Moving the guild chat to a channel instead was the first move towards a non-guild cartel actually, back when we were just a few months old. It never went through though.

We're talking about almost 3 years ago now, man time runs by so fast!

Samian/Bismack wrote:

Tahlrana wrote:lot of the meta gaming problems, I am sorry to say, have come from the Shields.

Request to be locked. But I have to say I am a little disappointed I couldn't bring up an issue I had without people getting a tad angry with it. I did try to bring it up in the most polite manner I could.

You cant start shouting stuff like that and not expect people to feel attacked etc.

Ratio's on DB will always be fucked because we are basicly roleplaying in circles with out own alts and we're always discussing the same things and "issues" we need to move on as a whole or just accept how things go on DB.

I dont see the point of locking these threads neither though, might aswell let everyone vent to their liking rather then always smothering the discussion

QFT. Censoring the discussion is pointless, because it bottles things up and prevents conversation on real issues, thus bringing further trouble down the road (it also prevents some of us from getting our daily dose of drama/comedy).

Keep in mind that the Shields (can't say if this is true for the other guard guilds but this was very much a case when I was a member) have a hefty amount of new roleplayers. New roleplayers have this annoying habit of, dramatic drumroll, being new. They don't (necessarily, exceptions happen) understand what's acceptable and what is not, how they should act and treat others, and so on, all because they lack the experience. So even if they've been explained the principles of metagaming, godemoting and poweremoting (I made sure to check that every new Shield I recruited knew them, and kept an eye on them while they were on-duty as much as I could to ensure practical teaching as well), they may still do all three because they don't still fully understand the concepts. I'm sure most of us can say "been there, done that" if asked about any of the three.

Now, If you've trouble with members of a particular guild, then it's best to bring it up in private rather than start posting about it on the forums. You'll find that people are much more polite and more willing to co-operate when they don't feel they've their reputation to defend. If you don't want to bring it up, then ask an officer to do it for you. The key to every enjoyable relationship is communication. I think it's far too common that when people feel mistreated by others, they bottle it up and form a grudge against that group, and that'll just blow up on everyone's face later.

As for the ratio, like Samian already said, it'll go up and down depending on the general opinion of the community. A few months from now you might not see a single guard at all because everybody got bored of it and is playing orcs, assassins, draenei, shiny Lordaeron knights or barbaric Arathorians, whatever floats the boat at that period of time. That's just the way it goes.

Khen is a traitor to his country.

Regiment are best! #samforking

Disciples of light are good but they need to let the light of the Lexadin into their hearts.

Shields... "no comment" As I dont really know them, they are Una fodder tho

Must admit I've been back all of a week and i cannot believe how good the guard situation is.

For the first time in ages we have a non-monopoly on guard orders and that's always great for flavour and choice.

I've got to say as well, that the quality and frequency of RP by both the guards and the criminals is excellent.

Huge kudos to both the guards and the criminals, I've really been enjoying myself.

I know this adds literally nothing to the topic and its subject, but i just wanted to put across a light hearted point.

o/ Fort!

The guard/criminal ratio always changes, just roll with it. I remember when Stormwind was a complete criminal hot spot with barely any guards in sight, people got mugged in the streets without anyone to report to.

It's always going to flux, so when there is plenty of guards try some more underground crime. The Underforge being a fantastic place for that (Gives Skarain creds).

As for metagaming, some people do it yes, there has always been metagamers, but a few metagamers do not represent a guild, Shields are great, Regiment are great, you'll find if you actually just talk to people it helps a lot.

My problem with authority guilds is that they tend to abuse their powers. For instance their characters shrugs off outright facts like laws and actual proofs and condemn you to whipping regardless of anything, just beacause. Guards harassing citizens (ICly, not OOC) without getting demoted/punished.

Laws should be applied on the guards too, unless they are corrupt, in which case they should hide it a little better.

Also death sentence is something that i do not accept. Only the player can decide when and how stop playing their character, and i strongly believe that punishments like detention, exile from the city, permanent wounds, marking and whatnot are strong enough of a deterrent for be acceptable consequences to one's RP. Death no, just no. Sitting in a dungeon for weeks, maybe innocent and having to quit your guild because someone had a bad day is outright terrible.

About the metagaming issue..it's a little complicated. If i see that someone is clearly new to RP, i forgive such things, but if someone is an officer or a clear veteran then i get -very- upset if he read my guildtag, come on man... i did started some drama about this and it wasnt pleasant, but i post it on the forum because i want those officers to know that -many- players like them want things to change because it's not funny anymore. I personally, just ask to be more sensible about your punishments, because it affects pepole RP in ways you sometimes dont realize.

but removing guards rights altogether? hell no.

Nihilia wrote:My problem with authority guilds is that they tend to abuse their powers. For instance their characters shrugs off outright facts like laws and actual proofs and condemn you to whipping regardless of anything, just beacause. Guards harassing citizens (ICly, not OOC) without getting demoted/punished.

Laws should be applied on the guards too, unless they are corrupt, in which case they should hide it a little better.

Feel like a guard is harassing you or abusing his IC powers? Take it up with me (Minister of Justice), my deputy Jeremias Blackwell or even their own superior and see to it that the issue is being looked into to. Laws do apply to guards, they are not above it.

Nihilia wrote:Also death sentence is something that i do not accept. Only the player can decide when and how stop playing their character, and i strongly believe that punishments like detention, exile from the city, permanent wounds, marking and whatnot are strong enough of a deterrent for be acceptable consequences to one's RP. Death no, just no. Sitting in a dungeon for weeks, maybe innocent and having to quit your guild because someone had a bad day is outright terrible.

The guards that decide the punishments keep a close OOC communication during the trial with the criminal to let them choose what punishment they want out of a few options. Noone will force a death sentence on you, but if your crime is henious enough you might be forced to choose between death or exile - but we can't just whip someone for committing High Treason, as that wouldn't make sense IC.

Nihilia wrote:I personally, just ask to be more sensible about your punishments, because it affects pepole RP in ways you sometimes dont realize.

The guards always ask OOC before deciding IC. The Regiment used to constantly maim people for crimes (normally finger-cutting), but that was only because most criminals allowed it OOC, they did not force it onto them.

What most "outsiders" (i.e. those that only see the punishment without knowing anything about the OOC communication) often thinks is that we, the guards, force these horrible consequences on characters, but whenever it's something that will permanently harm your character we always ask beforehand.

Nihilia wrote: I personally, just ask to be more sensible about your punishments, because it affects pepole RP in ways you sometimes dont realize.

but removing guards rights altogether? hell no.

Some guards are corrupt, its no fun to be fair and their will always be guards who enjoy beating up criminals and framing them all the time so they can do it. But their are IC ways you can stop it or report it, speak to the Minister Helrog or my character Jeremias and guard rights can be removed from that person.

As for punishments, I've never forced a punishment on any-one and try to avoid execution or exile unless the person OOCly tells me they want it. If they do say ''Yes execution is fine'' I give them 5 days to think about it so they have a chance to change their mind, or if an execution is issued I give them 5 days to think up of a fun event for an escape to get out of it. It is the reason why only a very small group of rpers are given the authority to hand out execution, any-one else doing it can be punished for it IC.

Nihilia wrote:My problem with authority guilds is that they tend to abuse their powers. For instance their characters shrugs off outright facts like laws and actual proofs and condemn you to whipping regardless of anything, just beacause. Guards harassing citizens (ICly, not OOC) without getting demoted/punished.

Laws should be applied on the guards too, unless they are corrupt, in which case they should hide it a little better.

Also death sentence is something that i do not accept. Only the player can decide when and how stop playing their character, and i strongly believe that punishments like detention, exile from the city, permanent wounds, marking and whatnot are strong enough of a deterrent for be acceptable consequences to one's RP. Death no, just no. Sitting in a dungeon for weeks, maybe innocent and having to quit your guild because someone had a bad day is outright terrible.

Guard Corruption:
This was something which I found was severely dull and frustrating when RPing. Not the corruption of the guards, but the whining of those who were abused ICly because of it. These people are low paid and have mundane lives of patrolling and consistently getting shit thrown at them; ontop of which, you're extremely likely to get a bad bunch of folks joining up because humans like a bit of power! So you should expect corruption. This isn't the real world where justice and order are so vast and corruption is so utterly stamped down upon that Police Officers have to be subtle. This is a world where there's a lot happening elsewhere, e.g. a bloody war every year, so naturally the Kingdom's coin is spread thin. Sure, a guard shouldn't go around stabbing folks in public but if someone is arrested for giving a guard lip and continues to do so on their way to the prison - expect that corrupt guard to say the person assaulted and tried to stab him. A guard's word should be considered of more worth than a criminal. It's great role-play and extremely engaging. As someone who played a successfully corrupt guard, I can say that it was bloody tough getting past all the bitching OOC from people who think they're immortal.

The whiners and white knights ruined this style of RP whilst I was about. I'm sure that hasn't changed since I last played Kyven, either. Because someone complained to a superior OOC, despite the fact they're known and dangerous criminals, their word has been taken above a guard (in a couple of cases, above two guards because Kyven started to get a bad rep). Criminals try to act like they're fucking Bane or the Joker throughout captivity and then as soon as they get a backhand to the face, they become Jimmy the Snitch - but what's worse is that they're always believed because they're the first to say anything. Then you have your white knights. I like a few because that's realistic. Not 90% of the people walking around. Why do you get so many white knights? Because everyone wants to be a hero - including lowly paid citizens/guards! I remember when Zalissa was taken to the cells and despite her being arrested for assault with intent to maim/kill, continous abuse towards guards and a few other crimes, as soon as she was slapped a couple of times for resisting - a few guards dove in to be the heroes who saved the damsel (the situation did end up a lot more tragic but that's another story altogether).

TL;DR: It isn't less corrupt guards that is needed; it's smarter criminals/citizens. Don't backchat and act all cocky to a guard and expect not to be backhanded or punished more severely. Think as your character would - this isn't the real world.


Death Penalty:
I agree that prolonged captivity in the cells is a flaw in guard RP. It's never fun to be stuck down there for a while and it's something that is consistently talked about. You're not wrong on that point. However, I went into being a guard with the opinion that the death sentence is too far because a player chooses when to die. That changed when I saw how many players abused it. I don't want to name and shame but there was several who got off far lighter than they should have; even people who complained after they have been arrested for the fourth time that cutting their hand off is too far and unfair. If you're an RPer, you're actively trying to make stories with others. If you're putting that other person (in this case a guard) in a position where they have to unimmerse themselves from the logical side of their character because you can't accept your character having a few fingers taken, then you're not a very good RPer (this isn't directed at the person I'm quoting). You're a selfish RPer that thinks the world revolves around their character. We had a few of those. Even characters that were known mass bloody murderers complained when they were told they would lose their head... We'd exile them but they'd show up in the city the next week. Leniancy can only go so far.

Agree with vaell, apart from exile which is a shitty thing to do.

Vaell wrote:

Nihilia wrote:My problem with authority guilds is that they tend to abuse their powers. For instance their characters shrugs off outright facts like laws and actual proofs and condemn you to whipping regardless of anything, just beacause. Guards harassing citizens (ICly, not OOC) without getting demoted/punished.

Laws should be applied on the guards too, unless they are corrupt, in which case they should hide it a little better.

Also death sentence is something that i do not accept. Only the player can decide when and how stop playing their character, and i strongly believe that punishments like detention, exile from the city, permanent wounds, marking and whatnot are strong enough of a deterrent for be acceptable consequences to one's RP. Death no, just no. Sitting in a dungeon for weeks, maybe innocent and having to quit your guild because someone had a bad day is outright terrible.

Guard Corruption:
This was something which I found was severely dull and frustrating when RPing. Not the corruption of the guards, but the whining of those who were abused ICly because of it. These people are low paid and have mundane lives of patrolling and consistently getting shit thrown at them; ontop of which, you're extremely likely to get a bad bunch of folks joining up because humans like a bit of power! So you should expect corruption. This isn't the real world where justice and order are so vast and corruption is so utterly stamped down upon that Police Officers have to be subtle. This is a world where there's a lot happening elsewhere, e.g. a bloody war every year, so naturally the Kingdom's coin is spread thin. Sure, a guard shouldn't go around stabbing folks in public but if someone is arrested for giving a guard lip and continues to do so on their way to the prison - expect that corrupt guard to say the person assaulted and tried to stab him. A guard's word should be considered of more worth than a criminal. It's great role-play and extremely engaging. As someone who played a successfully corrupt guard, I can say that it was bloody tough getting past all the bitching OOC from people who think they're immortal.

The whiners and white knights ruined this style of RP whilst I was about. I'm sure that hasn't changed since I last played Kyven, either. Because someone complained to a superior OOC, despite the fact they're known and dangerous criminals, their word has been taken above a guard (in a couple of cases, above two guards because Kyven started to get a bad rep). Criminals try to act like they're fucking Bane or the Joker throughout captivity and then as soon as they get a backhand to the face, they become Jimmy the Snitch - but what's worse is that they're always believed because they're the first to say anything. Then you have your white knights. I like a few because that's realistic. Not 90% of the people walking around. Why do you get so many white knights? Because everyone wants to be a hero - including lowly paid citizens/guards! I remember when Zalissa was taken to the cells and despite her being arrested for assault with intent to maim/kill, continous abuse towards guards and a few other crimes, as soon as she was slapped a couple of times for resisting - a few guards dove in to be the heroes who saved the damsel (the situation did end up a lot more tragic but that's another story altogether).

TL;DR: It isn't less corrupt guards that is needed; it's smarter criminals/citizens. Don't backchat and act all cocky to a guard and expect not to be backhanded or punished more severely. Think as your character would - this isn't the real world.


Death Penalty:
I agree that prolonged captivity in the cells is a flaw in guard RP. It's never fun to be stuck down there for a while and it's something that is consistently talked about. You're not wrong on that point. However, I went into being a guard with the opinion that the death sentence is too far because a player chooses when to die. That changed when I saw how many players abused it. I don't want to name and shame but there was several who got off far lighter than they should have; even people who complained after they have been arrested for the fourth time that cutting their hand off is too far and unfair. If you're an RPer, you're actively trying to make stories with others. If you're putting that other person (in this case a guard) in a position where they have to unimmerse themselves from the logical side of their character because you can't accept your character having a few fingers taken, then you're not a very good RPer (this isn't directed at the person I'm quoting). You're a selfish RPer that thinks the world revolves around their character. We had a few of those. Even characters that were known mass bloody murderers complained when they were told they would lose their head... We'd exile them but they'd show up in the city the next week. Leniancy can only go so far.

Word.

Nice post Vaell.

Also what i still don't understand is when criminals/cultists are chained to the wall and they carry on threatening to kill the guards and his/her family and doing the whole badass routine. Sometimes a guard just has to hit someone a few times to make them understand that they are not going to kill anyone but some people think OOC this is power abusing... Most characters would react the same way (unless they shit out the light) if someone was threatening to kill his/her family regardless of their IC role.

The majority of time in Guard RP though we are in contact with the people we arrest OOC and if you think we ain't just contact us.

Nothing wrong with a few slaps really, no lasting harm and it makes good RP. Nothing wrong with a kick in either as long as it is in the right place. IE someone who surrenders nicely and is pulled in to answer a few questions about tax dodging prob should not get their head kicked in XD.

And yeah if your guard is way out of line in public with 100 witnessess then he should be owned. I hate the conceot of concequences, it is a corrupt term for RP, but if a server is going to make loads of laws then they have to be for all, ministers big guilds and guards included.

Lexgrad wrote:Nothing wrong with a few slaps really, no lasting harm and it makes good RP.  Nothing wrong with a kick in either as long as it is in the right place.  IE someone who surrenders nicely and is pulled in to answer a few questions about tax dodging prob should not get their head kicked in XD.

And yeah if your guard is way out of line in public with 100 witnessess then he should be owned.  I hate the conceot of concequences, it is a corrupt term for RP, but if a server is going to make loads of laws then they have to be for all, ministers big guilds and guards included.

Obviously the laws are the same for everyone. Common sense and trying to solve things IC helps with a lot of problems in RP. If the guards get away with blatant corruption, then it's I would say it's mostly because the people aren't making a case for it IC. Officers and ministers aren't omnipotent and/or omniscient, you need to bring these things to their knowledge.

As for consequences in RP, maybe the term has a bit of a negative tone to it. Cause and effect might be a better way to describe it, but either way, it's not just very necessary and desirable, but unless you go out of your way to not have an effect, then it should be also unavoidable.

Cause and effect is good Khen. The concept of consequence is great and vital for RP but unfortunately with RP "Consequence" is often in the eye of the beholder. To often consequence is used as an attack on some ones RP to force something upon them, this is one problem on AD that is greater than on DB but it is here too.

The other part of my comment is that as a guard and a neutral too often I have seen people in big guilds think that they have protection from guards. The "scrub" RPers we pulled in were on the whole happy to play along with guards, they seemed to enjoy the RP and afaik that is still true now, the super hero newbs aside. But if as a guard you wanted to take in someone from a larger guild you end up with a protest and weapons drawn mostly, it is much harder than it should be.

But yeah, on the whole despite my negativity guards on DB are very professional, alot of the problems are in relating to guards rather than guards themselves. Guards bring something to a city and serve/create RP. DBs guards are excellent at this, all of them.

Lexgrad wrote:Cause and effect is good Khen.  The concept of consequence is great and vital for RP but unfortunately with RP "Consequence" is often in the eye of the beholder.  To often consequence is used as an attack on some ones RP to force something upon them, this is one problem on AD that is greater than on DB but it is here too.

The other part of my comment is that as a guard and a neutral too often I have seen people in big guilds think that they have protection from guards.  The "scrub" RPers we pulled in were on the whole happy to play along with guards, they seemed to enjoy the RP and afaik that is still true now, the super hero newbs aside.  But if as a guard you wanted to take in someone from a larger guild you end up with a protest and weapons drawn mostly, it is much harder than it should be.

But yeah, on the whole despite my negativity guards on DB are very professional, alot of the problems are in relating to guards rather than guards themselves.  Guards bring something to a city and serve/create RP.  DBs guards are excellent at this, all of them.

Yup. Forcing your RP on another isn't really acceptable, though if we think about it in the context of guard RP, I can understand why guards sometimes want to carry out punishments against the criminal's wishes. Both sides have good arguments and it's a tough thing to judge.

Larger guilds tend to stick together, if it's kept IC it's all fine and dandy though. Obviously when GM's and/or officers start whispering guards to let their members go for OOC reasons, it's out of line. But yes:

Lexgrad wrote:But yeah, on the whole despite my negativity guards on DB are very professional, alot of the problems are in relating to guards rather than guards themselves.  Guards bring something to a city and serve/create RP.  DBs guards are excellent at this, all of them.

This, so many times.

The whole issues stems from not communicating. Why don't people communicate in whispers but would rather act on hear say?

I don't mind if criminals act out against guards, if there are two guards and ten of you? then attack the guards. But don't expect the guards to forgive and forget, we do like a good hunt! Just think before you act, seriously! Consequences to actions.

Khendran wrote:

Lexgrad wrote:Cause and effect is good Khen.  The concept of consequence is great and vital for RP but unfortunately with RP "Consequence" is often in the eye of the beholder.  To often consequence is used as an attack on some ones RP to force something upon them, this is one problem on AD that is greater than on DB but it is here too.

The other part of my comment is that as a guard and a neutral too often I have seen people in big guilds think that they have protection from guards.  The "scrub" RPers we pulled in were on the whole happy to play along with guards, they seemed to enjoy the RP and afaik that is still true now, the super hero newbs aside.  But if as a guard you wanted to take in someone from a larger guild you end up with a protest and weapons drawn mostly, it is much harder than it should be.

But yeah, on the whole despite my negativity guards on DB are very professional, alot of the problems are in relating to guards rather than guards themselves.  Guards bring something to a city and serve/create RP.  DBs guards are excellent at this, all of them.

Yup. Forcing your RP on another isn't really acceptable, though if we think about it in the context of guard RP, I can understand why guards sometimes want to carry out punishments against the criminal's wishes. Both sides have good arguments and it's a tough thing to judge.

Larger guilds tend to stick together, if it's kept IC it's all fine and dandy though. Obviously when GM's and/or officers start whispering guards to let their members go for OOC reasons, it's out of line. But yes:

Unfortunately in my experience this has a huge affect on RP.  Guards will not do what they should due to fear of hassle and stress.  Which is what I mean, it has to be a laaw that fits all, goes for both guards and non guards.

Lexgrad wrote:

Khendran wrote:But yeah, on the whole despite my negativity guards on DB are very professional, alot of the problems are in relating to guards rather than guards themselves.  Guards bring something to a city and serve/create RP.  DBs guards are excellent at this, all of them.

This, so many times.

I am mostly right Khen :p

*wink*