Defias' current state, low activity, etc

What Coppers is saying, is the balance of RPers changes. Constantly.

The RP community is still quite huge, and the Cartel has grown sizable, just as other guilds have grown smaller. The Regiment also seem to have grown in numbers, compared to a very low point some months ago, when I was playing last.

In freelancers, where I'm spending most of my time, there is regular RP to be found, even if I've personally missed out on much of the day-to-day RP as I'm leveling. Just don't wait for there to be public announcements of "ATTENTION ROLEPLAYERS : THERE BE MEMBERS TALKING TO ONE ANOTHER IN CHARACTER! :O"

Lastly, I'd like to add:
Even if the numbers were going down as quick as you make it seem, Raen, I wouldn't mind. It's the small conversations, those times your character really bonds with another, that matter for me. Those are the most memorable times.

Raenmar wrote:Busy guild events =/= sprawling server. I had that many people at a guild event on Ravenholdt. This was when my guild was the only RP guild left.

How hard is it to understand? Is your head that far up your damned arse?

This was not a guild event. It was a long anticipated effort of multiple groups. And guess what. We left Stormwind! Ain't you proud of us now..?

I just realized what's going on!

The Black Hand killed everyone!

Since there has been a lot of wall-of-texts, I have not really read everything, nor do I know if my small idea has been already mentioned.

But if it is publicity you want, why not set up two threads on 1. The Blizzard Roleplay forums and 2. The Defias Brotherhood (Blizzard) forum where us roleplayers of DB update on events that has happened? It doesn't risk us being ganked by asshats since it is events that has already happened, yet it gives the public a insight in the roleplay activity and variety.

But as I've seen been mentioned before, this is something that we've been through since the early years of Defias. People think Roleplay is dying, and then in a few weeks it is blossoming again. Things go up and down, always. New games come out, people try them out. RL take over, but activity (as I've seen it over the years) usually do persist and come back on larger scales sooner or later.

Our server does have very dead moments and very rich ones. It does get repetative to always rp with the same people/characters. In fact, my main issue with the server is the lack of people who make alts to rp on!

Things will pick up and drop again.

I could post a wall of text, but someone who is better with words has written this lovely article:
http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/03/13/all-the-worlds-a-stage-how-to-keep-your-realms-roleplaying-al/

Dorik Thunderbelly wrote:I could post a wall of text, but someone who is better with words has written this lovely article:
http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/03/13/all-the-worlds-a-stage-how-to-keep-your-realms-roleplaying-al/

First good input in a while.
I've been thinking of starting a citizen guild in which new people interested to RP can be 'teached' and from which RP can be actively advertised so that people who are hesitant will be convinced Thing is, I don't have the time myself. Also, I think it would work best if various GM's of the larger guilds cooperated on it so it'll by a neutral thing.

Anyone interested in the concept..?

Hm, doesn't sound bad. I could spare something for it.

RP workshops? Introducing new rp'ers to the realm/server?

I suppose you that is what TTH does/did when we would gather up around Anvilmar/starting zone and rp the heck out of it, in case any new player/dwarf/gnome would spot ous and catch on.

Humans go for Northshire.
Night Elves for the trees.
Dwarves for Anvilmar (Gnomes too?)
Dranei for their space-shuttle.
And Worgen, well that's a bit harder.

Gnomes got Gnomeregan these days, or at least the surface part of it. Worgen have to stay with the tree-humping elves as well.

By the way, for those who wanted a realm thread for past rp happenings I tried to make something:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6893569356

Dorik Thunderbelly wrote:I could post a wall of text, but someone who is better with words has written this lovely article:
http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/03/13/all-the-worlds-a-stage-how-to-keep-your-realms-roleplaying-al/

Fantastic article, thanks for sharing. One of the best suggestions I believe from it is designating a weekend(or week) where we, as roleplayers, leave our 'comfortable' spots and go roleplay in places like Orgrimmar, Shrines of the Two Moons etc.

As usually Dorik saves the day. *Bavragor salutes*

I first joined this server on another account exactly a year ago, and played as a Tauren shaman. I joined the Shatterskull Marauders, and was amazed by what RP really was. I finally felt Azeroth is a dynamic place, a real living world. I'd go to Ratchet and RP with my guildies, I attended some events. Once there was some kind of a war Gathering in Thunder Bluff, leaders of RP-PvP guilds attended the gathering and discussed about war or something else. We were all warned to stay away from the members of the Vile Thorn, everyone said they're dangerous and Vile as their name suggests. I was amazed by how many RPers I've seen, I'll never forget seeing the leader of Thorns, umm...forgot his name...being held off from the meeting. And then I saw Dailor, he said he's come to represent the religion of the Forsaken. Ever since then I felt the server is full of RP, I felt this world is alive and fluid, and as long as I remember that day I will never leave Defias Brotherhood.

Also, there was some kind of IC attack on Stormwind in which I participated, there were many guilds and Thrakha took us on this raid to join the other warbands, we destroyed the Alliance forces in Goldshire, went over the Stormwind bridge but were stopped by an Alliance counterattack in the trade district. I was level 65 or so, but there were lowbies to kill...and merchant NPCs! I RPed torching one of the shops. I'll never forget that. It was my first RP event ever, it's the reason why I love Defias Brotherhood.

As time passed by, the server seemed to be more dead and dead...I started RPing on the Alliance side, eventually I left. Now I'm back for that feeling I had when I started, I won't give up until that's back, cause that was my best RP experience ever.

I will list out a few reasons why I believe role-playing is decaying on Defias Brotherhood, with some evaluation/personal experience behind each reason.

Reason number one.

DefiasRP. This forum has existed as a method of segregating the DB community into two (or more), the RP community versus "the rest" mentality is now completely ingrained within the mindset of most people. One only needs to flick through the DB realm forum to understand how cut off most players feel from those who actively engage in RP (in a general way) and what sort of perspective they have of us, (elitist, etc). I don't think that does anybody justice or promotes the realm in a better light.

DefiasRP has also been responsible for effectively killing the realm forum for multiple years, thus, highly cutting down on how people perceive the realm forum and in general make any first impression of the realm. PvP threads with retards whining at each other, yep, great first impression for possible role-players seeking to re-roll. The lack of using the realm forum has also dried up the amount of potential people to into role-play, for the reasons mentioned above (apparent project of exclusivity alongside lack of presence on the realm forum).

Reason number two.

A huge, and utter lack of reaching out to players to get involved. When I first started the Kingdom of Lordaeron role-playing guild in late December, I recruited perhaps five, maximum, people from DefiasRP. It was just Gogol and I at the beginning.

How did I recruit so many people? I whispered all guilded and unguilded Forsaken to get involved, it took some energy, it took some time, but it worked, and for me personally and in general, it paid off. I brought forward new members into the community over-all, as well as to my guild, without taking away from the activity of other guilds by having them re-roll alts.

I've never seen anybody else (aside from Dorik, back in DRS) follow this technique. The mentality seems to be that, "If a person is seeking RP, they will contact us", but more often than not, I found that people had no idea of who to contact, who to speak to, or even realize that RP was active and going on DB.

Put in the initiative.

Reason number three

Denying that RP is declining. Looking back to the original posts, and Gogol, I completely disagree with you on the irrelevancy of this thread. DB has been losing members while people have been in utter denial about any of these changes occurring, whether or not you have been doing so, I don't know, neither do I really care. What I care about is people who actively claim that nothing is changing and that people aren't quitting/leaving/realm changing, because whether any of you reading this like it or not, that's exactly what is happening.

Denying that the population of people declining is only undermining efforts to support and continue the prosperity of role-play. I find it almost sad that I know every single guild leader almost by name and have 85% of them on Skype, it has it's benefits, sure, but I'd like to see more fresh blood.

Reason number four.

Expectation of people to get involved in role-play. I have no idea where this completely ignorant and simple-minded concept has come from in the general DB RP community, but it seems to be extremely present in the minds of many. Do you all somehow expect folks to guess/assume that there is role-play on the realm and find you to contact you? No, of course not, that's ridiculous.

There's always a certain degree of showing people the right direction, and I repeat, not many do this at all. No miracle amount of role-players will suddenly migrate from any other realm, the key to success and future in DB's RP community lies in solidifying the presence of the current community and intertwining it with the rest of the DB community while converting as many of them as possible to role-play and gauging interest.

Reason number five.

Guilds only looking out for themselves. I'm so, so, so sick of this and I absolutely hate the selfish self centered bullshit that some guilds have.

"Our guild is doing fine, therefore we don't need to help the rest of the community". Like it or not, we're all on the same realm, and if the realm declines, then so will your guild. Heard of the butterfly effect? This is exactly it in motion, except with people. Mass migration will leave long lasting impacts, so take your thumb out of your asses and start helping.

Just because YOUR individual guild is active does not entitle you to go "lol, fuck the realm, my guild is fine, won't bother contributing". No, if the realm goes down, so will your guild.

Reason Number Six

Lack of general community spirit and the judging of efforts of people based on . Yo, we're all on the same boat on the realm, and if the RP population continues to go down then so will the potential population of each guild, and if that goes down, then so will the RP.

I don't want that to happen and I sure as hope neither do any of you who have decided to post on this forum.

On a final note, for those who complain about the lack of RP/decline of RP yet end up doing nothing, you can be declared absolutely stupid.

For those who have decided to move to Argent Dawn and role-play there, then go ahead and do so without troubling the rest of us.

Late night rant, complete.

If people respond positively to your post after all the shit I've been getting for making a lot of the same points, I'm going to be very butthurt. But I have to say that you put it into words better than I've done.

I don't really have a reply to most of your points (but you know I agree with them), except the one about reaching out and getting people involved. Your "Why don't you role-play?" thread made me think about something I hadn't given much consideration, which was the difficulty getting into RP for people new to the server (or hell, even people who have been here a while), hence the guide. I think it's improved a lot recently though - we have people from non-RP guilds in LFRP, which is a big start.

There's also the general opposition between RPers and PvPers. The TB RPPvP event was obviously a big step in the right direction in that regard, and a brilliant idea from you, Vangrel. I've been contacting PvP guilds on Alliance and it turns out there's a lot of PvPers interested in the RP aspect as well as the PvP, which came as a big surprise. It's nice to see respect between RPers and PvPers, and hopefully that'll keep growing.

I've even had a few people in big PvP guilds contact me about the tournament, which surprised me even more.

Honestly, I think DB is improving massively. Keep using the realm forums and hopefully Blizz will sticky some damn threads.

Vangrel Lansire wrote:
Reason number two.

A huge, and utter lack of reaching out to players to get involved. When I first started the Kingdom of Lordaeron role-playing guild in late December, I recruited perhaps five, maximum, people from DefiasRP. It was just Gogol and I at the beginning.

How did I recruit so many people? I whispered all guilded and unguilded Forsaken to get involved, it took some energy, it took some time, but it worked, and for me personally and in general, it paid off. I brought forward new members into the community over-all, as well as to my guild, without taking away from the activity of other guilds by having them re-roll alts.

What on earth makes you think you are unique in this regard?

From the 70+ members of Blooming Lotus, I am the only one who (frequently) posts on DefiasRP. It's the same for most guilds - DefiasRP is only a tiny, tiny segment of the playerbase. People just like to think it's representative of the server because they are personally members of it and they are very representative of themslves, who are in turn players of the server.

People weren't listening to Raenmnar because he sounded too angry. I don't think people are going to listen to you, Vangrel, because you sound too smug.

Both of you, Raenmnar and Vangrel, have been doing good things. Don't ruin it now by acting so pompous about it. Just stick to the programme and don't condemn others for not doing the same. Live and let live. Show some empathy for what the apathy.

Humility, especially if you are accusing others of pride, is important.

I am not going to adress the actual content of your post, because I feel I've already done my fair share of discussing on this subject and have absolutely nothing to add. My opinion on this matter is fairly well known.

By all means, keep figthing the good fight, but for the love of all that is holy don't act like such dramatic martyrs about it. It's unnerving and very off-putting.

I agree that Vangrel has been incredibly smug as of late. Have I though? I'd like to think I haven't. :3

Am I the only one who has been seeing growth?...
I whisper any char I haven't seen before. I began it because the cartel has a hostile attitude towards others, and so people sometimes think we're also hostile ooc (they do). Last month we've had a ton of ER 'immigrants', which is sad but also great, but also we had a ton of new RPers.
I think its partly due to vangrel's strong RP representing presence on the realm forums... His threads catch anyone's eye and he's to get some kudos for it too!

Only barely a few members of the Freelancers use DefiasRP, plus since i kinda follow the Radke-Dwyburn policy most things are suposed to be done ICly anyhow or In-game.

I've seen Growth too Sullee. A lot of new people too, which i may need to still give tips and pointers, but also more general members.

It's been nice for everyone that made more awareness on the forums. but events generally atract people. I mean at the Ironforge riot a random Dk who hasn't RPed ever in two years randomly joined us humans and he was pretty fun and i'd say better than a few of my newer members, so i think we're on a good path, but then again I myself am a lazy person.

I am not one of the "healers of role-play" and I probably will never try it in the future, mostly because I don't mind how many people I rp with atm and I don't see the point in putting extra effort in for a small hobby. So, with that point aside, I'd just like to address this one quote...

Vangrel Lansire wrote:
Reason number five.

Guilds only looking out for themselves. I'm so, so, so sick of this and I absolutely hate the selfish self centered bullshit that some guilds have.

This is like going and sitting beside a random group of people in a pub and expecting them to all welcome you with open arms. Some might, some will most definitely not. Is it selfish for them to tell you to bugger off? Of course it isn't! You're the one barging in on someone else having fun. Role-playing is a hobby to most (a job to Dru!) and being self-centered when you're relaxing isn't a bad thing.

Raen and Vang, you both need to stop with the superiority complex. It's like doing a cancer run and telling everyone who is standing on the sidelines, cheering you on, that they're all selfish and you're the one who has seen the light.

There are plenty of RPers still about. I think the only issue I have is that we have such massive guilds - Regiment, Cartel, Freelancers and Blooming Lotus spring to mind - and lack the variety of 6 months ago. That's both good and bad. Good in the sense that we now have large scale inner guild events frequently but bad because the guilds don't mingle as much as they used to (they still do, just not as much). I've found that most people who get into RP for the first time after whispering me have just seen me actively role-playing in a multi-guild event. That's just my input.

keep figthing the good fight, but for the love of all that is holy don't act like such dramatic martyrs about it. It's unnerving and very off-putting.

I used personal experience as I said I would at the start to outline and reinforce each point.

I will list out a few reasons why I believe role-playing is decaying on Defias Brotherhood, with some evaluation/personal experience behind each reason.

What on earth makes you think you are unique in this regard?

There's nothing unique about whispering people already on the realm to participate in role-play, just in my experience, I've found myself the only person doing so. If you do too, then great, keep doing it, it works.

I don't really like your consistent assumption that there's some sort of assumption about Martyrdom, but there is a huge lack of co-operation on enhancing the realm forum and a general atmosphere of "Why should I do anything".

This is like going and sitting beside a random group of people in a pub and expecting them to all welcome you with open arms. Some might, some will most definitely not. Is it selfish for them to tell you to bugger off? Of course it isn't! You're the one barging in on someone else having fun. Role-playing is a hobby to most (a job to Dru!) and being self-centered when you're relaxing isn't a bad thing.

This is an awful comparison. On DB, you can probably have a vague idea of most people you meet outside Stormwind by name of main/alts, there's a huge amount of familiarity, (something you have yourself have consistently posted as a beneficial thing to DB?). I'm glad you've decided to conveniently snip out most of the post and only focus in one part, while disregarding the fact that even if there's a tiny contribution from guilds which would completely and utterly avoid offering any assistance in general, it would over-all help everybody (including themselves).

A rising tide after all, lifts all boats.

Raen and Vang, you both need to stop with the superiority complex. It's like doing a cancer run and telling everyone who is standing on the sidelines, cheering you on, that they're all selfish and you're the one who has seen the light.

If putting down about the things we're currently doing is having a superiority complex, then sure, fine, I can live with that pretty well actually. I'm quiet happy to list out what I do.

I am not one of the "healers of role-play" and I probably will never try it in the future, mostly because I don't mind how many people I rp with atm and I don't see the point in putting extra effort in for a small hobby.

If you don't mind how many people you RP with then why did you move a character to AD?

Vangrel Lansire wrote:
This is an awful comparison. On DB, you can probably have a vague idea of most people you meet outside Stormwind by name of main/alts, there's a huge amount of familiarity, (something you have yourself have consistently posted as a beneficial thing to DB?). I'm glad you've decided to conveniently snip out most of the post and only focus in one part, while disregarding the fact that even if there's a tiny contribution from guilds which would completely and utterly avoid offering any assistance in general, it would over-all help everybody (including themselves).

Ok, we'll say a playground but with the same scenario. You're going over and joining the sporty kids and they're happily playing 5 aside football but you're telling them to stop, gather more people and get a big game going. When they say no, you're calling them selfish.

I didn't conveniently snip it out - my point just remained the same! It's no one's responsibility to renew role-play and if they don't want to do it, they won't. That's their business. It's their paid time.

Vangrel Lansire wrote:If putting down about the things we're currently doing is having a superiority complex, then sure, fine, I can live with that pretty well actually. I'm quiet happy to list out what I do.

As I've said, your superiority complex comes from the fact that (from the outlook of it) you're doing something 'charitable' just so you can boast about it. That may not be the case but that's the way it is coming across. Do good things because you want to do them, not to have others admire you for them.

Vangrel Lansire wrote:
If you don't mind how many people you RP with then why did you move a character to AD?

Variety. I'm an altaholic and love to create new characters every couple of months. My only issue with DB atm is the lack of variety in guilds - so for some of the characters I wanted to make, an alternative server was needed. Being able to play on two servers isn't difficult and works for me; so as I said, I'm happy with the amount of people I can rp with atm.

Ok, we'll say a playground but with the same scenario. You're going over and joining the sporty kids and they're happily playing 5 aside football but you're telling them to stop, gather more people and get a big game going. When they say no, you're calling them selfish.

Again, it is a poor comparison of DB.

It's more like the people in the past were capable of getting 11 a side, but now don't care about having 5 a side, yet agree completely that 11 a side were better. There's no great change coming in trying to motivate and initiate more RP on Defias Brotherhood.

As I've said, your superiority complex comes from the fact that (from the outlook of it) you're doing something 'charitable' just so you can boast about it. That may not be the case but that's the way it is coming across. Do good things because you want to do them, not to have others admire you for them.

What do you consider boasting?

"Hey guys, try this tactic, it works!" ? What have I personally asked for in return from anybody besides a little bit of support & assistance in getting threads seen and posting on the forum? Great recognition, statues or some sort of medal of honor presented to me by the Defias RP role-playing community in a great parade?

I think you have misunderstood things based on the fact that (let's go with the two you've named) that myself and Raenmar have superiority complexes because we voluntarily projected ourselves into positions of action. No, I disagree with that.

Variety. I'm an altaholic and love to create new characters every couple of months. My only issue with DB atm is the lack of variety in guilds - so for some of the characters I wanted to make, an alternative server was needed. Being able to play on two servers isn't difficult and works for me; so as I said, I'm happy with the amount of people I can rp with atm.

That is your personal taste, and, do whatever you enjoy. I've already outlined what I like doing, and among those things is putting the time and effort into helping DB not decay nor continue losing population to AD.