Draenei preaching in Stormwind

Greetings fair citizens of Stormwind! This question is mainly directed at you. I would have brought this issue up ICly with the Minister of Faith, but from what I know, Fortesgue doesn't seem to be all that active at the moment.

My question is a simple one: would Draenei priests preaching in the Cathedral of Light be welcomed, or shunned? I know the awnser of the Holy Chapter of Anethion already, of course, and have had to deal with it ICly many times. I am now however wondering about the more mainstream stance on this of the Church and the average citizen.

I ask this on behalf of the Draenei Anchorites in particular because, unlike the Night Elves, the Draenei faith is always stressed to be complementary to the Human faith. It is supposed to be the great binding element between the Draenei and the Humans. A mass held by a Draenei preacher would supposedly connect with a Human citizen, just as a good Human preacher would no doubt inspire a Draenei crowd.

Personally, I would love to have the opportunity to preach in the Cathedral of Light, as it is a great place to get new roleplayers involved in religious roleplay. I know for a fact that there are many Draenei roleplayers casually doing their thing in Stormwind, and it might be cool if they can have a mass or something of the like presented to them every once in a while. Don't get me wrong, I love preaching in Shattrath and the Exodar, but sometimes I feel it is just too insular, as it only is accesible for people who already have an "In" contact in our current circle of players.

So, what do you think? Draenei preaching in the Cathedral of Light every once in a while, a yay or a nay?

Definite yay from me. I don't really see an issue, Stormwind has become fairly multi-cultural regardless of whether it's actually meant to be that way. Whether you'd have to start with arranged masses, rather than random preaching however, I'm not sure.

Heck, do whatever makes sense I suppose.

Well, I think the church doesn't oppose the occasional preaching of a Draenei inside the cathedral, but the structural draenei communie within the cathedral that would be a different matter I suppose...

(though the chance of fort objecting is 3%)

Nay.

Random preachings? Sure, but arranged masses are different. In my opinion it dilutes the position of the Church of Holy-Light - as a corner-stone of human society - and its largest cathedral to some kind of inter-faith social club, how often do you actually see players preaching about the Three Virtues in the Cathedral? Not very often, sadly. I even have a problem with the Chapter, the guild which I preside over, holding such events for the same reason; I prefer to hold them in Northshire, but the difference between the Chapter and the Draenei-teaching in this case is that ICly we say that the Chapter has a following among the citizenry that would justify a mass in the Cathedral every now and then.

On top of that, you do not just have the opposition of the Church to what is essentially a foreign teaching attempting to take its faithful (which, even if its not Thelo's intention, would be the out-come if humans were to find the teachings of Naaruvada as resonant as you say they would); but also the extremely strong conservative elements of human society that would oppose to foreign elements trying to mix their culture with that of humans. You only have to do a couple of quests in the Borean Tundra to see that humans are not that fond of draenei yet.

Conflict arising between those who favor the multi-cultural, progressive movements, and those who hold on to a more conservative point of view seems like it could be an interesting thing to play out.

I see your point on establishing a steady communion or even insular masses in the Cathedal, Corleth. Would you, however, object to semi-arranged lectures? Say, a Draenei preacher coming over to speak on this or that topic, with the opportunity for questions afterwards. There would be no communion, no communal prayer, or any other active religious activity, apart from discussion on this or that subject. Similar in tone to those old Community of Light meetings we used to hold.

I believe this will still suit both my OOC and IC purposes, all while respecting the Cathedral's position as a bastion of the Human community. If so desired, we could always move outside of the actual Cathedral and hold a lecture at the fountain or in the gardens. This could still, I believe, cause the desired strife and generate the wanted roleplay, while not making it seem like the Draenei are invading the Cathedral in an attempt to convert Humanity to kneel before the Naaru

My main OOC desire is this: I wish to hold events that promote Draenei roleplay in places where players might accidently stumble upon it, rather than having to be invited by some arduous process. From what I have seen, the Cathedral and its surroundings are the optimal place to suit this purpose. The Exodar, while great, just doesn't have the same ammount of random people stumbling trough it.

There's always the gazebo though

Aye, I would settle for the Gazebo.

Thelos wrote:Conflict arising between those who favor the multi-cultural, progressive movements, and those who hold on to a more conservative point of view seems like it could be an interesting thing to play out.

The problem with that is, its the latter - the conservatie types - that hold the positions of power in human society, and I do not think they'd let such a thing go ahead for a conflict to play out in the first place. We get quite a micro-view of human society, as we the players (usually!) like to play the 'interesting' characters: the rebels, the outsiders, the eccentrics, the radicals or the hip, progressive priests (I'm looking at you, Fortesgue ), and so, the 'boring', status-quo upholding citizenry and rulers are left largely unheard, or unthought of, in some cases.

But thats a different matter, really. I don't really have a problem with them being held near the gazebo, or either of the cathedral square fountains. Holding them in Stormwind library could also be interesting.

Poo Thelos would just talk to them and they would change their minds! Ya know I am starting to wonder about the whole Thelos is KJ thing....

Jarric is a fat bigoted ass hat but he don't mind so long as your verson of the light requires minimum imput from him and he can still eat himself to a heart attack. /shrug. Ask the council maybe?

The council kinda doesn't have authority to grant who has the right to preach inside the cathedral and who doesn't.

Perhaps Amaryl, but other than asking Benedictus... wait... other npcs we got nothing else.

Amaryl wrote:The council kinda doesn't have authority to grant who has the right to preach inside the cathedral and who doesn't.

This.

Matters of the church are outside player control. The only way to handle things such as this is to see what makes the most sense at the time.

For me, I don't have a definite decision in this matter, I go for neither nay or yay.

However, the Light community are after all just that, a community. How about Thelos speaks to the leader of the leading Light groups (instead of Benedictus), get a meeting set, and see what he can do? I mean, it could be a great start to get some communications for faith around again properly, too.

Edit: And that way we don't need to bother the council.

Corleth wrote:The problem with that is, its the latter - the conservatie types - that hold the positions of power in human society, and I do not think they'd let such a thing go ahead for a conflict to play out in the first place.

I don't want to sound like a dick, but do you have any actual sources on this, or is this an assumption that one could question?

I do not see how you can say for certain that it is the conservative types hold the position of power in human society, especially with there being an actual Dwarven District, and with there having been a Night Elf district in the form of if the park, where the Night Elves were even allowed to build themselves a Moonwell in the heart of Stormwind's kingdom.

Regardless of that, I do definately see your point that the conservative voices are underepresented by the player-base.

I shall hold lectures on the square or at the gazebo, then, and we'll see how things develop ICly from that point onwards!

Do it anyway and see what the hell happens?

That's my motto when it comes to roleplay, worked out well so far.

Thelos wrote:

Corleth wrote:The problem with that is, its the latter - the conservatie types - that hold the positions of power in human society, and I do not think they'd let such a thing go ahead for a conflict to play out in the first place.

I don't want to sound like a dick, but do you have any actual sources on this, or is this an assumption that one could question?

I do not see how you can say for certain that it is the conservative types hold the position of power in human society, especially with there being an actual Dwarven District, and with there having been a Night Elf district in the form of if the park, where the Night Elves were even allowed to build themselves a Moonwell in the heart of Stormwind's kingdom.

It's just my interpretation, so of course it can be questioned; but you should take into account that segregating races into their own little districts and the Church endorsing; not just allowing, foreign culture and teachings to be preached in the largest CoHL cathedral is not that apt a comparison.

I dont see what the deal is really, loads of lore points to liberalism, the moonsell in SW, trolls in the harbour, the kings son is being taught by squid! I cant see an attitude of thats cool, but dont teach that shit here plox.

We even slaughtered the Scarlet survivers of Lordaeron rather than help them. if there is a hidden hardline lighty powerbase, where is it in lore?

Corleth wrote:

Thelos wrote:

Corleth wrote:The problem with that is, its the latter - the conservatie types - that hold the positions of power in human society, and I do not think they'd let such a thing go ahead for a conflict to play out in the first place.

I don't want to sound like a dick, but do you have any actual sources on this, or is this an assumption that one could question?

I do not see how you can say for certain that it is the conservative types hold the position of power in human society, especially with there being an actual Dwarven District, and with there having been a Night Elf district in the form of if the park, where the Night Elves were even allowed to build themselves a Moonwell in the heart of Stormwind's kingdom.

It's just my interpretation, so of course it can be questioned; but you should take into account that segregating races into their own little districts and the Church endorsing; not just allowing, foreign culture and teachings to be preached in the largest CoHL cathedral is not that apt a comparison.

Fair enough, I respect your interpetation, and on account of it being underepresented, will honor it.

I will do my preachings and hold my lectures outside of the Cathedral -- either in the Gazebo, on the Square, or some other clever place, like perhaps just outside of the City where that draenei Shaman is hanging out, or maybe that little patch of snug grass under the Mage Tower.

Stay tuned!

Hmm... To me it would seem the church of the Light itself would probably have a bit of a schism in this. While I'm not sure if it would be so clear cut, but I can imagine that there would be a notable difference between the "older" more traditional minded priests who feel they should adhere as strongly as possible to old ways. But then there would be a new batch feeling they should be more open, fall back on the essential teachings of the Light.

I would believe that the latter group would be more open and welcoming of the idea. However, I believe it would be more viable and realistic if they would place this in a context of trying to modernize the thinking on the Light (out of the box) without steering away from it. So... It would seem likely to me that even the more open minded group would announce it as a community event, with Draenei as guests to expand our knowledge of them, perhaps even deepen the understanding on the Light rather than them preaching the Light.

So.. The same action could take place.. given a bit of a more cooperative context. The Church of the Light... and its religion is still, in essence, a philosophy about doing -good-. Not being fascist rulers on some form of purity.

What JP said.

Though to add my own thoughts, it seems to me that the draenei have had enough time to be welcomed - not only by the night elves who found them but by the Church at large. It seems reasonable that many of the Church of the Light would admire and respect the draenei for their long years of wisdom and understanding of the Light, rather than rejecting them as foreigners.

So I see two camps here (maybe more than two), but in my imagining of things - including the opinion of my own Rohwyn - the draenei are great sources of wisdom, not something to be turned away.

Would a protestant minister be allowed to preach in a catholic church? They believe in the same god afterall.

There you have it

Debri wrote:Would a protestant minister be allowed to preach in a catholic church? They believe in the same god afterall.

There you have it

Yes, happens all the time.

Jeanpierre/Inias wrote:The Church of the Light... and its religion is still, in essence, a philosophy about doing -good-. Not being fascist rulers on some form of purity.

The religion is indeed, but the Church itself is different. It is a political body as well as a spiritual one, and so requires some degree of support from the populace which I believe it would loose by allowing Draenei to hold organised sermons in its cathedral. It would loose both support from the more conservative faithful but also from any of the people that find truth in the Naaru teaching and turn away from the Church. The fact that the Church also declares others heretics (even if they do little about it) shows that they are willing to judge which are 'pure' and which are deviating.

Lexgrad wrote:

Debri wrote:Would a protestant minister be allowed to preach in a catholic church? They believe in the same god afterall.

There you have it

Yes, happens all the time.

From personal experience I can say it doesn't happen 'all the time', and one only has to do a quick google to see the outrage it causes when a rogue catholic Bishop allows it to happen in his diocese. But thats beside the point.

Valerias wrote:So I see two camps here (maybe more than two), but in my imagining of things - including the opinion of my own Rohwyn - the draenei are great sources of wisdom, not something to be turned away.

There are also two OOC camps, I think. Those who choose to interpret RP in WoW as dark and gritty; resulting in a dark and gritty Stormwind and those who prefer a more... happy(?), not sure what word to use, but who's interpretation of human society is of a more tolerant place.

Lexgrad wrote:

Debri wrote:Would a protestant minister be allowed to preach in a catholic church? They believe in the same god afterall.

There you have it

Yes, happens all the time.

As a guest or as a regular thing? I'm guessing the former, and yes as Corleth said, the only accounts I could find myself of such events were catholic people whining about how much of an abomination this protestant faith is.

Internet doesnt = fact... defo in articals of religion. There are guests and there are groups who work to forming some general unity. Hell there are priests trying to end the Orthodox/Catholic and the Protty/Catholic skisms.

Yeah you will see 50 posts in a forum moaning, most people happy with it are not going to go to a website to post that. It is why on first glance 99% of people think WoW sucks (see their own forums) and yet it still has x million of subs.

Cross faith meetings and services are not that uncommon and lets not mix that up with WoW where the church of holy light has no prob with quids at all (publicly in lore)