Stormwind Assassins, Stormwind Regiment and RP in general

I would like to explain some things regarding my guild and certain encounters its members have had in the last few weeks with RPers from other guilds. My first intention was to only address them privately, but I think it would be more productive for everyone (directly involved or not) if I could explain myself in public so more people other than the respective GMs know what it's about, thus avoiding further misunderstandings. And yes, I know this post will be terribly, terribly, long, but I feel there's much to say and, well, if we were scared of text we would not be here, would we!

I will first start introducing my modest guild ("mine" as in "I'm their GM"), Stormwind Assassins. We have a recruitment thread in the official forums ( [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ) and our website is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] where you can find very similar information. Essentially we are a PvP-oriented rogue-only guild increasingly trying to complement our activities with RP, at least for a few players within the guild. The inspirational background for the guild can be found in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] , with the initial intention of portraying a subgroup within this organization.

While many of our members are relatively new to WoW RP (which doesn't necessarily mean new to RP), the first experiences of a few of them have been appalling so far. Our most recent source of trouble has been our presence in the SI:7 building in Stormwind, which as you may well know serves as base of operations for the guild "Stormwind Regiment". One of our rogues was in the building, alone, literally AFK, when he was told to leave, because Stormwind Regiment was RPing there. This came up in /g and since it had not been the first similar reaction we had met in the past, we started gathering there, which -I'm not going to lie, and I apologize for that- was deliberately done to push the situation. By the time I got to the second floor there was nobody there other than my guild mates, so we stood there for a while, sitting and chatting in /r (and exclusively in /r), but when a couple more rogues joined they were followed by a party from the regiment from downstairs, and that's when we had a brief "Azerothian standoff".

Now, our intention was NOT to RP there, but my people started to get touchy with a more than reasonable "so what if we wanted to". From our perspective we were not disrupting anything (the whole floor was empty and people hadn't even /said anything that could have confused anybody below), even less so at the very beginning and, lore-wise, our presence made sense in that location. However we were told the only possible outcome was for us to leave, we had to deal with quite a few whispers from/to different people (some extremely polite and understanding; a few not so much, although it was probably the heat of the moment), some from our side didn't behave optimally either, and I eventually told my colleagues to leave.

Let me assure you I understand the basis for the Regiment's position, because although I was told anyway I was already well aware of the situation. The larger RP guilds have a tacit agreement about their "bases", and in some cases this assignment has been going on for years. This is perfectly understandable and respectable, but from my experience it gets out of hand way too easily when people are overzealous about it. Just before our "encounter" I had been in the SI:7 myself taking pictures and video for future guild material (if you've seen our recruitment video you'll understand), only to be followed by someone who, although respectfully, basically invited me to leave saying I was "not supposed to be there IC", whatever that meant, considering I was again alone on the top floor, recording myself. After recovering from my stupefaction I told him I was obviously alone and not doing anything, we talked about it for a few minutes (very polite chap by the way), and he allowed me to continue. Before that, other guild members had had similar experiences in different locations with different guilds. Just a few days ago we got into this hilarious situation where we were in an inn and two people came in and told us to leave because it was "their" inn; when we asked what kind of inn did not serve drinks to clients, we got some confusing explanations that ended in something like "uh.. hmm... but... oh, ok.. you can stay..to drink.. I guess?".

Of course if one wants to be part of a community there must be some learning and adaptation process; see how everything works first, then how you can fit in. We totally get that. But try to think in our terms too. We are a relatively new guild trying to find its place, and when we intend to do so the first reaction everywhere is "get out". Nobody seems to ask what we could be offering that might make the environment more interesting, or try to figure out how the newcomers could be welcome. When we are asked about it it's only to reinforce everyone else's position, like when yesterday we were "invited" to explain our presence there IC, but only if we accepted the principles that we were not in fact in the SI:7 building but in Stormwind Regiment's base (which seemed to conveniently and necessarily comprise the whole building), and all NPCs were to be ignored but, for some reason, we were not, because our mere presence was generating an aura that prevented all RP in a 40-yard radius. Which is basically to say "you're not allowed in here, leave", because there's no possible IC response to that. Only after a relatively long conversation with someone particularly reasonable I was suggested to talk to their GM about it because, somehow, there was no other way to proceed.

I don't want to make this exclusively about Stormwind Regiment because it's not; while I did want to explain myself about this with a detail I wouldn't be able to in game (I expect to talk the Regiment's GM in private as well), I also wished to bring up this kind of conflict in public because it seems widespread, and I don't think many players are aware of the kind of reputation they already got for themselves and the RP community in general.

Again, obviously if you want to be part of a community you have to respect the consensus, implicit and explicit rules of behaviour, and that community is free to avoid contact with those who do not go with that. However one cannot play under the assumption that you can force everybody to immediately accommodate to your rules under the threat of ostracism. Not only because the server does not belong to anybody in particular, but because that attitude is harmful to everybody. You might be losing future good players and a richer environment if you basically discourage them by telling them it is not possible to RP without some sort of official approval and that they must RP in the woods on their own otherwise. Being part of a community is a two-way process, and if you don't allow any spontaneous or dynamic feedback you're missing something. Casual RP outside this corseted structure is also very important to many of us, yet some people seem to find pleasure in destroying it by considering it inferior in some way. Expecting everyone to have some sort of license to be in certain areas of the world is just insane.

My general advice to anybody finding themselves in the same situation (somebody randomly "invading your territory"):
- I'd approach them OOC first, via /w. If you go IC, at least cue them so they can come up with something interesting to say.  "You're not allowed in here" is the worst icebreaker ever because it leaves absolutely no room for the newcomer to proceed IC other than "ok, bye" - and that's only if you're lucky. If you're in a larger group maybe invite them over to a more secluded part or take them for a walk to talk to them alone, so they don't feel like they're being confronted or in inferiority.
- It may be obvious, but you'd be surprised: ask what they're looking for. Maybe they don't know just yet. Some just want some conversation. It could be they're just not aware of the etiquette. Surely you can spend a minute pointing a player in the right direction, where to look for information on how to RP or how guilds interact.
- Be flexible. Continuity is a choice: you can roleplay alternate realities in different situations. People are killed one day to be back to life the next day. We're just creating stories. Try to find common ground.
- They may not know your guild or what you're doing. Give them a quick context so they understand what's going on. Sometimes I've randomly come across other people's RP events "in the wild" and it's extremely enjoyable when they don't know you but they welcome you anyway, fill you in quickly and offer you the chance to be part of it. This kind of casual interaction makes players feel like they're in a real world and not just a collection of cults.
- You may not know their guild or what they're doing. "Do you RP on specific days of the week? If so, can we arrange things together, or maybe on the contrary organize them not to collide? Does your IC background fit mine? Could there be an IC justification for this interaction?"
- If you don't want to do any of the above, just pretend they are not there. If you feel they shouldn't be there and you can't explain it to them properly, just don't acknowledge their presence. It's what we do when non-RPers pass by anyway, I don't see why it should be any different with anybody else, and it can't be worse than being rude to them.

In our particular situation we never intended to displace anybody or tell them how they should play. We don't want to disrupt anybody's game, and in fact we could and we will play elsewhere because we take others' RP seriously, but we were hoping our sporadic presence would not be such an unbearable burden to have this kind of pointles confrontation.

In my opinion wanting to maintain a certain status quo is perfectly understandable; when you're comfortable playing with a certain group of people interacting with a new one you know nothing about can be awkward. However I believe approaching them with an open mind can be beneficial in the long run. If one can find a way to agree on something satisfactory (and even beneficial) for everybody, all the better.

Just my two -hundred- cents.

PS: Friendly advice to the people who think threats are the best first approach. First of all, don't talk on behalf of a guild when it's not really the case, because you ruin everybody else's reputation, not just your own. And as a general rule, don't threaten people you know nothing about. They may have nothing to lose, the consequences are unpredictable and it tends to backfire - especially when so many people play on both factions. I uuuusually prefer the diplomatic approach, but you never know how other people will react!

Eh, Regiment has never really had issues with sharing the building with SI:7 groups in the past.
Some of the newer members and such might not be aware of this however and tend to get slightly overzealous in chasing people away.

Shouldn't really be much of an issue here, I would just say holler at me or Irene to discuss it ooc if you want to.

As far as I've seen on my Regiment-char, it's mostly about clearing out people who aren't really doing something there, like random drunks looking for trouble etc. The building is small, and can quickly become a small spam-hell in /s and /e.

Pretty much same reason you rarely see too many guards there either, as groups are sent on patrols when it gets too crowded.

Ralegh and Irene will know stuff like this better though.

As far as I've seen on my Regiment-char, it's mostly about clearing out people who aren't really doing something there, like random drunks looking for trouble etc. The building is small, and can quickly become a small spam-hell in /s and /e.

Pretty much same reason you rarely see too many guards there either, as groups are sent on patrols when it gets too crowded.

Ralegh and Iriel will know stuff like this better though.

Kyph wrote:- Be flexible. Continuity is a choice: you can roleplay alternate realities in different situations. People are killed one day to be back to life the next day. We're just creating stories. Try to find common ground.

This is a valuable insight.

I've had had the same situation as Ralegh happen, where some members of my guild treat the kitchen of the Pig & Whistle as "our space" and shoo anyone that comes down there out of it, while I don't really have a problem with people popping down there.

Usually gets resolved without a fuss.

Hey! Thanks for the friendly chat we had ingame

Anyways, I only reacted IC to the presence of your people upstairs, when some of them came downstairs. Normally, when I rp, and I spot someone my char do not know (even whey they are oocers, I do this) I approach them IC, and ask if they need help, and such.

Your guildies responded IC, so I went with the assumption that they were RPers, and thus approached your people upstairs, when I followed one from downstairs. Now, I picked up rather quickly that most were fresh RPers, and that is why my char tried to calmly explain that he had been told IC to not let people he did not know, upstairs.

We discussed most of this in whisper, but what I can suggest, is that you contact our GM (Inneh\Iriiel) and sort it IC that she gives us an order that the Stormwind Assassins is allowed to use the second floor at their will. That way there will be no IC conflict either. Just have your people for example show a badge IC saying they are who they are. That way, out chars will go "Okay, sure!" As well as we ooc

(Hope that was not too confusing) That is at least my advice.

Now, I do apologize for the rude behaviour of some of our members. I had a talk to the person in question, and the person apologized for the agressiveness.

I actually don't like when people are ushered out of the CC. People flock there when they're bored because it's a hub of RP and Dwyburn is wrong in saying it just becomes a spamfest. It's a good place for RP.

I've not rped over the last month or so and therefore can't really comment past this but I've heard some of your members told the Regiment that they don't belong their because they're not SI:7. This might be wrong and miscommunication but try and resolve it on both sides! I can imagine some regi players ushering people out though because it's happened before.

Don't let that speak badly of the Regiment or anyone else who does it. It does call for OOC drama but at the same time, it's one of the things that makes this server great. There are hubs where you know hooligans await, hubs which guards frequent and then other hubs where the oddballs go. Our server lore is second to none, it actually has its own culture and it creates a whole new layer of immersion. Please do not be put off by a bit of OOC drama!

Vaell wrote:Dwyburn is wrong in saying it just becomes a spamfest. It's a good place for RP.

-can- become a spamfest, sometimes. When criminals and drunks come looking for dates and show off their cursing skills and whatnot else, can get hetic at times but things are managable i'm sure overall, though that's another subject.

More or less things needed saying were said so case wraped up good job.

Then the people that do not like the spam should go elsewhere. I'm fond of the spam. Sending away role-players for role-playing because you can't keep up with the role-play is ridiculous.

P.s. I was not describing an ideal situation, but rather the situation as observed from my point of view.

Dwyburn wrote:As far as I've seen on my Regiment-char, it's mostly about clearing out people who aren't really doing something there, like random drunks looking for trouble etc. The building is small, and can quickly become a small spam-hell in /s and /e.

Pretty much same reason you rarely see too many guards there either, as groups are sent on patrols when it gets too crowded.

Ralegh and Irene will know stuff like this better though.

And then they're difficult to remove because they think they're being pretty intelligent and creative with their curse words and threats and seek to undermine the IC authority with their OOC stubborness and thus the spam continues and you can't imprison them because well they'll just keep going, which leads to just a major headache that you have to look after and when you don't look after them they then complain OOC'ly. Fun times.

It's all about being considerate of each other as Roleplayers and the few who do cause these spam fests looking for trouble and being OOC'ly stubborn against the IC consequences and authority is just others being inconsiderate of other Roleplayers, which is the problem. Afterall why should someone leave to un-necessary spammage?

You're missing the point, yes it's not good sending just anyone away just randomly in the case being made by the OP.

But at certain times a drunk criminal comes up to you and flexes about and starts asking for a date or just walks around on a tour. Of course people will come and ask you to leave or ask if you need some help or what you are up to, moreso to the very obvious shady person, who may or may not (In the OP's case not really) and go just looking around (Not much atempted RP in that case) so of course those certain people would be escorted out or something.

People are sometimes wary becouse of such people or well in the past there was like randomly SI:7 people walking in and doing just anything. BUT to keep in mind you got to keep an open mind of course since A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE NOT LIKE THAT and calm chats and so on easily can settle things like here, sometimes bit of drama happens yes and as it was mentioned new members or people new to things usually aren't the best person to turn to first.

But yes Vaell you can stop white knighting since there is nothing to white knight, no one is saying to just send people away just becouse.

I'm not missing a point. I'm not white knighting. I'm saying that the majority of the time, as someone who has been in the Regiment for two years, when people send randomers away it's for little reason other than "they're in the CC." Yes, there are situations where troublemakers walk in and pick a fight, but that's more a rarity from what i've noticed. The majority of the time, there's few people rping elsewhere so they bring their characters over to get some role-play and they're asked to leave. It's become the norm for guards to usher out anyone who doesn't have a purpose in the CC. I've experienced it myself even when I have had good reason to be there.

Dwyburn wrote: it's mostly about clearing out people who aren't really doing something there

Siegmund wrote:no one is saying to just send people away just becouse.

This was the point I was making. People do that.

Yeah. When I rocked with Si:7 RP in the lore abiding building I got serious OOC whisper abuse from a few members of the regiment a few years ago. Since then when I RP Si:7 I follow the notion that the building is the public face of them and just RP'd using various safe houses.

A lot has been said about the claiming of territory throughout the years; and together with the death of RP and the ability to kill other characters are the most recursive topics on this forum. And considering I'm not going to be repeating those conversation throughout the years, you can read upon them yourself, I'm going to condense it for you guys.

1. Territory/zones/buildings/houses cannot be claimed, trying to do so is foolish.
2. Some guilds and guild types will flock to certain zones to RP there for years and years, because it makes sense; basically making it The spot to find them, examples are the command center/SI-7 building for guard guilds, the cuthroat alley for cutthroats, the stormwind keep for the council, and the people in them will generally make those places alive.
3. This however does not give the people using those buildings a monopoly on them.
4. When a conflict arrives regarding use of the building; a compromise must be made. This could range from "okay, we're going next door, you were here first today" to "we can share the building" to "we'll split the building up into sections" into whatever.

That's it. This has been the case since the beginning of the server, and the decent guilds have always searched for ways to accommodate each-other.


That said, there something that needs to be understood here: Conflict resolution doesn't happen at the drop of a hat, sometimes it takes a bit of time, and its best to keep your head cool about things when these issues arrive, so here's conflict resolution 101, when dealing with OOC problems for IC issues or OOC problems with OOC issues, or IC issues due to OOC problems.

1. have the two affected parties talk with each other oocly. I.e; the general members that meet each other and start the issue. If it's solved hooray, if not go to step 2.
2. have the guild leaders talk through the issue and try and come to a resolution. Most decent guilds will solve the issue here, it is important to know that when proceeding with step two, that the goal is not to Win the argument for either side, but to actually reach a workable compromise. if the issue is solved Hooray, if not go to step 3.
3. Ignore each other since both parties are probably being asshats to fail and reach a compromise in step 2.

Sharing is caring. Especially if the guilds are similar in format - guard guilds etc.

If an evil guild came along and claimed the CC, that'd be another story.

I am one of those people that went to SI:7 Base after one of my guildmates was told to leave.

First of all i apologize for deciding to go there in order to prove a point, however i would like to point a few things;

I never RPed, I didn't even know that RP existed before i joined your server in order to get recruited in Stormwind Assassins.
I am kind of interested in RP even tho i wont be really focused on it. On multiple occasions i have sat in SI:7 base and several other areas, merely observing people doing RP. Even if as of now i do not intend to focus on it, i must say that i do find it interesting.

I would also like to mention something that happened to me on this server which i enjoyed.

While leveling an alt in Darkshore i saw a group of RPers crossing a river. I stopped of course wondering what was going on, and i must say i did enjoy watching how they all were so much into it. Then, what impressed me the most is that i was invited to join. Being of course a bit skeptical about it i played the part that i was a person of few words and kind of got out of the situation, but i stayed there in stealth at a "safe" distance merely observing.

I mentioned this event merely because it was the total opposite of the way we were treated in SI:7 Base.

As i said, i again apologize for entering the building with the intention of heating things up and for the time being i will do as my Guild Leader instructed me to, and avoid the area. I do however find it rather irritating that such a nice area is currently "out of bounds" for me when i was so careful not to talk in /say in order not to disturb others, and even made sure i would walk in there and not run in order not to ruin the mood.

I do hope that there will be an agreement on this subject since i would definitely not be visiting SI:7 base frequently or for long. However i would very much like to pop by sometime in the future.

Thank you for your time and for allowing me on these forums.

Kishkue.

That is how most people start roleplaying. Personally I think that is the moment where roleplay feels best, just getting invited randomly to a group of strangers and start roleplaying.

Well, I have been talking to their GM just now and it seems once again talking things through is (generally!) the most productive approach from both sides We have some more conversations pending, but I'm sure we'll come up with something very positive. /bow