Re: Comic books: Because women are sexual objects in these too!

by **Jeanpierre** Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:10 am

Aye indeed. Though those would more often bear the name "cartoon" I think. Not sure about the difference. We have a pretty big culture in Belgium on those cartoons, but not on comics.

by **Vaell** Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:14 am

I've already said, there are plenty comics out there which don't depict women as sexualised, read those if you're interested in the comic world and get offended from something that was never intended as an offensive decision.

That is why I see no issue with this, it isn't posed as being an offensive statement, it is - as JP said - an over the top series of universes where people have magical powers and silly one liners. I've been a comic book reader since I was a little kid; my oldest brother was once given a stash of a collector that had hundreds for me to read. I was never a reader of books, so comic books were my source of reading material. Did I then go and think all women must have huge tits and that is perfection? No. Kids aren't as easily influenced as people make out to be. The whole media attack where children are used as a front is pathetic. "These tv shows are influencing our children" because the parents are in fact the ones effected.

As for comic books, it has already been said, it is a piece of creative works that has no influence in society. Anyone taken offence from it is overly sensitive. Marvel and DC are over the top worlds.

Take, for example, Planet Hulk. Every superhero in the marvel world teams up to put the unkillable Hulk on a different planet.
^
And people are actually going, whilst reading something as silly (but fun!) as that, "Jean Grey's tits are far too big." What?

by **Jeanpierre** Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:49 am

But Vaell... You did grow up to become a sexist pig. Razz

by **erwtenpeller** Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:52 am

So did I, and I only read euro comics (cartoons whatever)!

by **Amaryl** Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:12 pm

Thelos wrote:
I'd rather just reach a point in the discussion where we can agree to go like:

"All right, men are being over-sexualized too, but that doesn't change the fact that women are being over-sexualized, nor does it marginalize it, and that this is where the real problem is, the problem which we should be discussing"

A much more interesting question to me is to ask oneself what exactly the nature of the problem is, whom it concerns, and how it influences them.

Is the apex of the problem the easily corrupted youth, and how to protect them from bad influences?

Is it the degredation of having your sex objectified, and how to turn around this schewed status quo?

I'm just trying to figure out what exactly the problem is here, and I feel the whole tug-of-war on the matter whether men are also or equally over-sexualized as women to be distracting from the more interesting problems at hand.

The point is, that you're discarding the previous discussion by saying: "stop talking about this!!!!" While it's actually that part of the discussion that drives the argument onward, to potentially the questions you're posing now. Its not about "no you", its about futhering our understanding.

so not only women are over-sexualised. the entire super-hero comic book medium is a stereotypic portrayal of the "ultimate" man/woman.

Why is that a problem? ask those questions based on the discussion, don't assert a new discussion by telling everyone to shut up about a particular aspect, it makes you come off as childish, regardless of how interesting the follow up questions are. You don't suddenly get that epiphany without the build-up. next time actually ask the new question instead of dismissing the other discussion.

Now, lets explore the medium of super-hero comics. What is it?

It is escapism.

just like fantasy, sci-fi, soap-opera's, porn, movies,

Its purpose is escapism.

and what provides more escapism?

where the nerd is actually handsome and strong, and gets the beautiful lady, while the bully is visually ugly, or where the handsome bully, beats up the ugly nerd and gets the beautiful lady the nerd has a crush on?

where the orphaned millionaire gets to bang ladies, and fight crime by beating up, ugly small hook-nosed pale creeps, or the part where there's an orphan boy that gets abused by the small, rotund, hooknosed pale foster father after drinking and sleeping with your teacher?

there's a reason most young-adult fantasy is based on a boy/girl that's a loner that finds he's the hero that needs to save the world.

by **Shaelyssa** Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:16 pm

I was once playing with my 8 year old cousin (or maybe 10? she's small and short, I don't know how old she is ...) and she told me that she wanted to bleach her skin and hair when she was older to be white and pretty like Barbie and Fulla

those evil dolls need to be eradicated !!!

by **Grufftoof** Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:20 pm

Amaryl wrote:
It is escapism.

just like fantasy, sci-fi, soap-opera's, porn, movies,

Its purpose is escapism.

I agree with some points for sure. But porn as merely escapism? Surely porn's raison d'etre is (sexual) stimulation rather than escapism...

That's me just picking at words I guess. But seemed important in a discussion regarding sex/sexuality/gender and stereotypes.

by **erwtenpeller** Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:22 pm

This may be relevant. Movie Bob has done several interesting talks on the whole sexism thing.

The Escapist : The Big Picture : Gender Games

by **Grufftoof** Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:24 pm

Shaelyssa wrote:I was once playing with my 8 year old cousin (or maybe 10? she's small and short, I don't know how old she is ...) and she told me that she wanted to bleach her skin and hair when she was older to be white and pretty like Barbie and Fulla

those evil dolls need to be eradicated !!!

Barbie has only existed since the late 1950s and yet skin lightening is common in many (predominantly) Asian countries. And has been for a long time.

YOU LIE. Filthy Arab. I'm now going to dye my and further darken my skin so I can pass myself off as a Kuwaiti... I've always wanted to be like you.

by **Vaell** Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:34 pm

Jeanpierre/Ragnilde wrote:But Vaell... You did grow up to become a sexist pig.

Not my fault you didn't study Biology hard enough!

by **Rasonal Dranger** Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:39 pm

Shaelyssa wrote:I was once playing with my 8 year old cousin (or maybe 10? she's small and short, I don't know how old she is ...) and she told me that she wanted to bleach her skin and hair when she was older to be white and pretty like Barbie and Fulla

those evil dolls need to be eradicated !!!

Playing like arabs like to play with their cousins?

by **erwtenpeller** Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:41 pm

Vaell wrote:
Jeanpierre/Ragnilde wrote:But Vaell... You did grow up to become a sexist pig.
Not my fault you didn't study Biology hard enough!

Comic books: Because women are sexual objects in these too! - Page 6 Thats_what_she_said2_xlarge

by **Eowale** Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:59 pm

Morgeth wrote:Granted, this is one of my favourites.

Oh dear god, my eyes. x_x

by **Sanara** Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:59 am

Eowale wrote:
Morgeth wrote:Granted, this is one of my favourites.
Oh dear god, my eyes. x_x

Dat Captain America. What a Face

by **erwtenpeller** Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:42 am

Yet nobody seems to notice the positions of the male superheroes totally show off their assets too. Why arn't they portrayed showing their vulnerable, human side??

by **Jeanpierre** Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:57 am

That is reserved for the story Smile

by **Gesh** Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:43 pm

It just wouldn't hurt to see more of a variety in shapes, male characters tend to have more thought in their appearance! whilst female it's generally just.. dat ass, dat rack, dem lips.

Spoiler:

Just an example.
You'll probably all disagree till the cows come home.

Also Comics are made for men? Kinda sexist. I'm a man, but I don't particularly enjoy sexy gurlz. I know quite a few straight women and gay women who read comics as well, more vigilantly then I do.

by **Chase - Esou** Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:50 pm

Vec, do you regularly buy comics?

by **Vaell** Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:55 pm

Vec wrote:It just wouldn't hurt to see more of a variety in shapes, male characters tend to have more thought in their appearance! whilst female it's generally just.. dat ass, dat rack, dem lips.

Spoiler:

Just an example.
You'll probably all disagree till the cows come home.

Also Comics are made for men? Kinda sexist. I'm a man, but I don't particularly enjoy sexy gurlz. I know quite a few straight women and gay women who read comics as well, more vigilantly then I do.

No, Comics in general are pointed at a male targeted audience. That isn't sexist, it is a target market. That is like me saying Barbie Dolls are aimed at young girls which means it is offensive to elderly people. Women read comics a lot more in the last 10 years than ever before and it is a growing market for them, hence more female protagonists that aren't joint with males being introduced as characters and stand alones.

"Sexism" is too widely used, that isn't even in the slightest sexist. It is common sense.

by **Darilas** Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:18 am

http://www.smosh.com/smosh-pit/photos/funniest-comic-book-fails-ever
Unintentionally hilarious panels, but also, things like this: Comic books: Because women are sexual objects in these too! - Page 6 Comic-fail-ww-sexist

Comic books: Because women are sexual objects in these too! - Page 6 Comic-fail-ww-sexist

Comic books: Because women are sexual objects in these too! - Page 6 Comic-fail-latern-sexist

by **Jeanpierre** Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:10 am

Vec wrote:
You'll probably all disagree till the cows come home.

Now you're generalizing and making invalid short cuts. I expected more interaction in the debate, instead of assuming people should just agree without thinking. Making people think about this topic is part of your purpose no?
There's people who agree, there's people who disagree and there's a people who want to make it more pronounced.
In your original post, you had a stab at comics in general. Even now, you attack comics in general and then go "here, this is just an example". There's a difference and a problem with that in my opinion. Might as well say all males are barbarians and use a few criminals as example. Also Comics are all about extreme, out of proportion styles. To complain about them being out of proportion and extreme is to complain there's junions playing in junion competition or sick people in a hospital.

The artist's creativity and drawing style lies at the core of the comic. This means their style is iconic for that issue. To attack the style is to directly attack the artist. Is it your purpose to fire the artists? Is it your purpose to have all comics burned in a fire?
No... At least that shouldn't be. They shouldn't overdo (if at all) drawing women as pure sex or lust objects or have the comic placed in the fap-rack.
This means you may have to make a difference between each artist, each comic, each book... unless you want to imply that no comic drawer is capable of doing it right.

As examples, you pick some choices that.. well.. frankly aren't the best ones. There's a lot wrong with the "extreme" version of the Wonder Woman in your OP, but I find the extreme version far less attractive than the moderate "I'm a private detective"-girl drawing. The extreme version also -breaks- more stereotypes and gender patterns of our society more than the moderated version.
You also show reluctance to see some of the symbology. She's like the American Hercules... Swapping the gender of a hero figure is perhaps an outdated style of feminism but by all means.. I think there's worse things to fight.

Compare that to the rant against the Catwoman who's depiction is just empty. There's no personality, there's no strength, or none of the dark psychological attributes visible that are key to Catwoman comics. She's like a pin up girl in an anatomically impossible position. Criticism accepted. But that's one cover.

I don't think some moderation for the published comics is uncalled for... But keep the focus on improving the comics by adding character, not removing it.

Vaell wrote:That is like me saying Barbie Dolls are aimed at young girls which means it is offensive to elderly people.

Barbie is also laden with stereotypes which is found offensive by many. Bad example Vaell Smile

by **Shaelyssa** Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:20 pm

I dont get what the big deal is ... they're comic book artists, they can draw whatever they want. why do they have some sort of moral obligation to set "realistic standards" for women?

and even if if they are setting "unrealistic standards" then whatever, don't buy the comic books and parents can choose not to buy them for their kids too.

Also Comics are made for men? Kinda sexist. I'm a man, but I don't particularly enjoy sexy gurlz. I know quite a few straight women and gay women who read comics as well, more vigilantly then I do.

what? how is it sexist ... the target audience is men for most comic books, the same way how dolls are targeted for girls and toy cars for boys

Playing like arabs like to play with their cousins?

You freak I was babysitting!!!

by **Rae Wulfgnar** Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:30 pm

From an artists point of view, Personally, it can be done well and its just damn satisfying to draw anatomy that an artist will hate to cover up such damned glorious muscles/fat/veins/bones!! in the right context it works well.

Comic books: Because women are sexual objects in these too! - Page 6 Fathom-Blue-Descent-0

Comic books: Because women are sexual objects in these too! - Page 6 Fathom-Blue-Descent-0

Comic books: Because women are sexual objects in these too! - Page 6 Witchblade

and Red Sonja.

Comic books: Because women are sexual objects in these too! - Page 6 Red-sonja_288x288

same for men

Comic books: Because women are sexual objects in these too! - Page 6 Savage%20Sword%20of%20Conan%20comic%2049%204

so my 2 cents is...love it as art because that is what it is! and love nudity! cheers

by **erwtenpeller** Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:49 pm

Wulfgnar wrote:and love nudity!

* High Five! *

by **erwtenpeller** Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:00 pm

Also, movieBob talks about something interesting that's coming up in todays "The Big Picture". Again, relevant to this discussion.

The Escapist : The Big Picture : Tropes vs. MovieBob