Tythalos' death on 14.12 CoL

How exactly did the escape go down?

Sanara wrote:diplomatic immunity

You would go as far to declare your character so powerful in the world that it could do this? It could have large, ongoing consequences that echo into game lore, possibly denting the alliance between the humans and the Draenei.

So no. You couldn't just declare Diplomatic Immunity.

Delidah / Scuzy wrote:

Sanara wrote:diplomatic immunity

You would go as far to declare your character so powerful in the world that it could do this? It could have large, ongoing consequences that echo into game lore, possibly denting the alliance between the humans and the Draenei.

So no. You couldn't just declare Diplomatic Immunity.

Key word. Diplomatic immunity would MAYBE save her from the human nation of Stormwind. But it would mean nothing to the Grand Alliance, where everyone's a part, everyone's a member, and murdering those of this Alliance, you wouldn't be fondly looked upon. And since it's a greater establishment than just the humans, yes, that immunity wouldn't do much.

Not to mention the act itself already will have shaken the alliance between human and draenei (or draenei & alliance as a whole?)

Sanara wrote:[ as I have said before, at the time I did not know there even was a problem. I expected the player to object to being killed and would have immediately changed the outcome myself if asked. The "choice" made was the reaction made by the character Sanara at having guns put to her head.

How do you Change the outcome of "Sanara easily snaps Tythalos' neck" considering that emote is simply a statement of what has happened, and not an action sanara is/was doing?

I'm just saying there's a reason, why we emote actions in attempts.

Firstly, it's a testament to Tythalos' maturity that he accepted this fate, and a testament to Sanara's immaturity to force something upon him. You say that you didn't write 'attempts' simply because there was no way for him to get out of it. You're completely missing the point, the fact is, it doesn't matter what -we- do, we are always attempting it before it becomes a successful action regardless of the chances of success rate. By not giving him a chance to react, you was basically skipping ahead in time to a point when your action was already done. That's not cool.

Yet it's regardless, Tythalos accepted it whilst he had every reason to god emote his way out of it, I know I would have. By moaning about it now, tho', Ty, you're kinda ruining what you did, just move on.

Sanara should be punished ICly, but I agree that even in the light of this, he still has the right to refuse death upon his character. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind or two wrongs doesn't make a right, spring to mind here. Alas spreading a mere rumour about Sanara's death at the hands of the Chapter isn't something that's unacceptable, I think people forget that the rumour mill isn't a place to spread facts to a wider audience, but also spread lies and half truths, so by all means do this.

I think all parties have been rather rude and immature throughout this thread, especially Sanara, whom is really for the most part without a defense for the actions but who cares? People like being asshats when they're behind a computer screen.

Faralan wrote:Not to mention the act itself already will have shaken the alliance between human and draenei (or draenei & alliance as a whole?)

Sort of like the way that the Draenei nation has come to hate Stormwind for mutilating Draenei prisoners as a punishment? It goes both ways.

Sanara wrote:

Faralan wrote:Not to mention the act itself already will have shaken the alliance between human and draenei (or draenei & alliance as a whole?)

Sort of like the way that the Draenei nation has come to hate Stormwind for mutilating Draenei prisoners as a punishment? It goes both ways.

Except that was punishment for a crime. Not the unprovoked murder of a human expressing his opinion in a community meeting designed for expressing opinions.

Sanara wrote:As far as I'm concerned, I could declare diplomatic immunity and there wouldn't be anything any Human could do about it except file a complaint

Ahem, if the laws in WoW are remotely like what we have in our world, diplomatic immunity will not be a green card to do whatever you wish to do. The rationale of diplomatic immunity is to make sure a diplomat can do his or her work without the host country pressuring him with legal methods for whatever political reasons they might have. A person covered by diplomatic immunity can have this immunity 'waived' by his or her homestate, which is the likely thing to happen if the diplomat comits a serious crime such as murder. This bring up a few questions, is your character a diplomatic figure for the Draenei? And if so, would the Draenei revoke the immunity of a diplomat that murdered a human?

o/ Lawyer exit ->>>

Except nothing. It doesn't change how that affects diplomacy between the two nations to have it happen. If Draenei society was perfectly uniformly Lawful Neutral, perhaps the fact that the "law" was abided would change things, but that really isn't the case and Stormwind's legal system simply appears to be barbaric and unjust in their eyes.

Edit:

Emrys wrote:A person covered by diplomatic immunity can have this immunity 'waived' by his or her homestate, which is the likely thing to happen if the diplomat comits a serious crime such as murder. This bring up a few questions, is your character a diplomatic figure for the Draenei? And if so, would the Draenei revoke the immunity of a diplomat that murdered a human?

Yes, that's a very interesting question actually. You know what would be fun? To actually see where that argument goes in RP rather than complain OOC that it's not going the direction some people want.

How did you escape?

Sanara wrote:Yes, that's a very interesting question actually. You know what would be fun? To actually see where that argument goes in RP rather than complain OOC that it's not going the direction some people want.

Except that there is nobody to actually play the person who would be taking that decision.

Diplomatic immunity? In a world where orc's are green, a mage can conjure a puddle of water into a sentient being that will drown you?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the CoL will seek out Sanara and have her punished for doing that, which will end up in her most likely being ended.

Diplomatic immunity in a somewhat similar setting as WoW, would be laughed at if the diplomat had commited murder, and the diplomat would end up on the stage of a common market, with his head on the chopping block, for the general public to enjoy.

Let's try to steer clear of the "Off with her head!" demands.

Of course, I was just pondering what would be a rational decision IC, considering the offence

Right.

Amaryl&Nygarth, can you please watch your tone a bit. Especially Amaryl's post contained several direct deregatory statements. But I suppose something like that cannot be avoided in a discussion like this.

PS: this is not some 'warning +1, next time banhammer' but more of a moderating "hey, you are on a path to disaster. Turn back"

(not as moderator)

I think this situation can be resolved entirely through in-character means.

Stormwind wants Sanara on the chopping block, Sanara cleverly escapes. Stormwind rages, bashes a few walls and builds a few more statues for the King and decides to declare Sanara a persona-non-grata, end all relations with Ere Argus untill she is exterditioned(?), and hire tough bounty-hunters to go after her.

Or

Stormwind is secretely glad that there is one less Witch-hunter in the world, and goes "Oh sorry, Sanara escaped. we got no jurisdiction in Exodar. Tough luck, no justice for you!" (secretely: "hehe....PARTYTIME!")


....but we can of course continue a very complicated legal discussion OOCly as well.

I'm going with the one less Anethion thing

I will have Thelos in Stormwind around the Cathedral as much as my schedule allows the coming evenings. He will be attempting to mend Draenei-Human relations and resolve the matter in the most peaceful way possible. Either I can be at the Cathedral or at the Ere Argus embassy - whichever you feel suits the situation most, and be there to awnser any and all questions is negotiator.

As Melnerag said, I suggest we move from OOC and IC and from now on work to get the best roleplay possible out of the situation and let bygones be bygones

Let's roll(play), people!

Melnerag wrote:(not as moderator)

I think this situation can be resolved entirely through in-character means.

Stormwind wants Sanara on the chopping block, Sanara cleverly escapes. Stormwind rages, bashes a few walls and builds a few more statues for the King and decides to declare Sanara a persona-non-grata, end all relations with Ere Argus untill she is exterditioned(?), and hire tough bounty-hunters to go after her.

Or

Stormwind is secretely glad that there is one less Witch-hunter in the world, and goes "Oh sorry, Sanara escaped. we got no jurisdiction in Exodar. Tough luck, no justice for you!" (secretely: "hehe....PARTYTIME!")


....but we can of course continue a very complicated legal discussion OOCly as well.

Because that'd be praised in the Exodar under Velen's rule? Yeah, no. You're not Eredar anymore.
And Bounty Hunters? I'm fairly sure Mr. Wrynn Big Boss of Stormwind and the Alliance wouldn't hire bounty hunters when he could just say she's to be punished. It's the realistic deal, hand her over, or punish her yourself.

Faralan wrote:It's the realistic deal, hand her over, or punish her yourself.

From what roleplay I've done with Sanara, this is appears to be the path that we are most likely taking. You'll learn the details IC as they develop.

Handle it IC'ly please!

I'm back with some 7-day free gameplay thingamagig, so I'll do what I can to help resolve this IC'ly, in a manner which is suited for both parties involved. (If it's wanted of course.)

Holy freaking crap 9 pages since last night, wat

(this is a general point and not directly related to the event)

It would be good to move on and RP now. One general point I do have is to those who would say "your char did something silly, in this case kill a man in public, and that is bad rp" I disagree with this. We do not always have to do what is best for your chars, hell Lexy could be a well loved figure if I thought that. It is fine to do foolish things IC, even attacking and murdering out of rage, revenge or whatever. To say that my char will never do anything that wrong under any circumstances is probably worse RP.

Ofc after doing this you should face up to the RP and create more, a trial, split public opinions, cause talk in the bars ect. I make the shroud aware IC what the rules of SW are (no runemagic, necromancy ect) but ooc I wont make guild rules that them completely from doing it. There may be good reason (like dru saving someones life or self defence) provided they can escape from the law or face the law I do not care OOC if they do break the law or even kill provided they RP out the situation. (by escape i mean the scene of the crime not from the cells).

IMO anyway.

Melnerag wrote:(not as moderator)

I think this situation can be resolved entirely through in-character means.

Stormwind wants Sanara on the chopping block, Sanara cleverly escapes. Stormwind rages, bashes a few walls and builds a few more statues for the King and decides to declare Sanara a persona-non-grata, end all relations with Ere Argus untill she is exterditioned(?), and hire tough bounty-hunters to go after her.

Or

Stormwind is secretely glad that there is one less Witch-hunter in the world, and goes "Oh sorry, Sanara escaped. we got no jurisdiction in Exodar. Tough luck, no justice for you!" (secretely: "hehe....PARTYTIME!")


....but we can of course continue a very complicated legal discussion OOCly as well.

This one still hasn't been explained.

HOW did she make her escape? I've been curious to hear this once since I heard about it all last night.

I was planning on using purely physical means to escape, since Sanara's nature doesn't really permit her to accept imprisonment that she considers unjust. No-one properly searched Sanara so she still had medical supplies and a utility knife, not to mention her general sexy wiles in the event a guard showed up. I'd been told OOC that there were wards against magic (back when Dru was imprisoned).

As it happened though, I saw one of the guards use Holy magic on another prisoner inside the cell and discussed it with him briefly in OOC chat to clarify, he said that it did not completley hinder magic, just diminish it. Since Shaman magic is Divine (Like Holy and Shadow) rather than Arcane (Which I would assume would be what the wards are primarily there to combat) Sanara escaped with a few quick, easy Shaman spells.

Once outside, I have a Last Relic of Argus emergency teleporter.