Re: Siela/Elizabeth back in the RP community?

by **Jeanpierre** Mon May 30, 2011 6:22 pm

One note however. As much as I believe in success or failure of another chance... This will only work if we give it -some- tolerance. If the first misinterpreted word or miss step of this kid yields in a burn at the stake, no matter how justified, then we might as well give up now.

To give him a chance to get back in here, do it proper. If he makes a mistake, talk to his GM and let the GM/officers have a mature talk. If he isn't sincere, it will fail sooner or later. If he is sincere, try to hold on a little and it might succeed.

by **Rmuffn** Mon May 30, 2011 6:33 pm

Geneviève wrote:Ach! someone beat me to it. I did a forum search to see who I could narrow it down to and the "alt" mentioned in the OP is actually his main.

I've heard he's got a warlock alt in their guild / with 'em.

by **Rae Wulfgnar** Mon May 30, 2011 6:38 pm

The Warlock was Ephitos, but he was acting up and was swiftly booted by pestilence.

@Jeanpierre, It is why I made this thread, just to explain why I'm allowing him in my guild and...stuff! yeah!

by **Grufftoof** Mon May 30, 2011 6:58 pm

For what my onion is worth, I agree with Nayan and Gene. Gene on the basis of my "reasons for dislike" of the person behind the pixels. Which, sadly, or whatever, has definitely coloured my view of Celltrex/Siela. I also agree with Gene's view re the "kid" thing. It really isn't an excuse. No more so that stupidity is a true excuse.

I do have a, perhaps stupid or pointless concern (seeming as I am not in the guild, nor interact with them IC or OOC). The fact it is Siela, that name, in your guild will instantly effect people and their reactions. Simply because of his name. We know names carry weight, surely. Both the name of the guild (for good and bad) and that of the character. The name Siela has a whole myriad of negative connotations on here, in the realm and on the wider Blizzard forums (even across realms). That's something you'd have to deal with, and something I wish you well in, and hope it does not detract from your actions, as noble as they are.

I think it's likely he'll piss on your chips, and it's quite possibly another "great jape" he will soon embark upon as an utter twonk. But it's your call. That's it.

His views IRL are too much of an issue of mine to give a shit further to his actual "character" in WoW. He'd need a blessing from the Buddha himself to fix that view.

Or maybe not. But you get the gist.

by **Hellvern/Ben** Mon May 30, 2011 7:03 pm

Jeanpierre wrote:One note however. As much as I believe in success or failure of another chance... This will only work if we give it -some- tolerance. If the first misinterpreted word or miss step of this kid yields in a burn at the stake, no matter how justified, then we might as well give up now.

To give him a chance to get back in here, do it proper. If he makes a mistake, talk to his GM and let the GM/officers have a mature talk. If he isn't sincere, it will fail sooner or later. If he is sincere, try to hold on a little and it might succeed.

Agreed, but that is why I did add that I won't tolerate people trying to push other members of my guild or other guilds into trying and getting this person to react in a way that would make them look bad. I've already received signs some people are trying to sabotage this effort. These people are only making themselves look bad.

by **Rae Wulfgnar** Mon May 30, 2011 7:18 pm

@grufthoof, Of course, your opinion is appreciated. My only concerns are for the ingame rp community on this realm and to try and take a stop to his griefing. His reputation outside the game or on other realms does not bother me at all. I only care about the rp community here.

by **Morty** Mon May 30, 2011 7:26 pm

In all fairness, I believe it is a choice from person to person who'd like to accept him back into the society. Not many will acknowledge him at start but it takes some time for people to realize who the guy is, if he is actually sad about what he has done.

He'll stay off from this Forum atleast, untill such has been proven and he has gained the loyalty some claims he deserves.

The discussion of him doesn't really help his matter, seeing how many who is actually against this guy, and I've personally had so many encounters with the guy, which has been nothing but negative that I don't foresee any change in him.

by **Aadaria-Ioanna** Mon May 30, 2011 7:53 pm

Now keep in mind I have not bothered as I just got home and saw this to read more than the last page.

Long ago about 1.5 years ago I got to know his char Elizabeth. As I got to know the boy he kept telling me about all and various devestating sides of his life, including his ADHD. When others started to give up, I kept trying..

I kept trying. I even talked to his brother who also plays this game.

But this backfired. I cared of that little boy behind the screen, felt sorry for him, gave him chance by chance..

I swapped to horde. He made it his own agenda to gank any character of mine he could find. Because "I betrayed" him by not remaining his "friend". It is not more than a few months ago since he last did this, it is not days ago since Celltrex raged over general chat/yells.. I honestly do not see much of a change in the boy I "knew" a year ago.

Considering how he still seems to enjoy ruining others rp and fun.. I am reluctant to encourage you Wulfgnar.
Because I see every good reason for you to try and want this to work. I also see you risking to handle his raging selfdestructive episodes. When Elizabeth is happy all is good. When Elizabeth is not happy... I would rather sit down and get headaches watching Glamour seriers on the telly, like grandma used to do before she got too much headache of it too..

Elizabeth happy is a charming wonderful boy. And I know he does not mean things badly (except from direct stalking, ganking, hatred spam episodes, those he does mean), his usual behaviour spam, pranks, etc.. Is not ill meant.. Still he does not know when to stop, when to shut up, he lacks some social antennas? Unsure of the spelling there but sure you got the point.

So from one who did try over a long lenght of time, as in hours of hours each day with ooc talks....
Just.. be warned..

by **Rae Wulfgnar** Mon May 30, 2011 8:12 pm

Thanks Ajina for your input, I will definitly keep this in mind while talking to him. He has himself, warned me of his ''anger'' moments and I just think that if I can steer it away from the rp community then maybe he wouldn't start up another pvp guild just to grief rpers, hopefully. And I think what Dreth said earlier, has alot of truth to it.

by **Cid** Mon May 30, 2011 9:34 pm

So, it is confirmed that he has some sickness that can make him... less tolerable. Sortof suspected that but never had proof of it until now.

I won't hate him more or less because of this knowledge. Mayhaps feel a bit of pity, but not much else.

by **Grufftoof** Mon May 30, 2011 9:36 pm

Ok, Devil's Advocate bit here, maybe.

But, after the words of some people, here and maybe in private (I've no idea if people have spoke privately about this, just a thought)...

Why do you feel the need/want to do this Wulf? The "task" you're setting yourself. Of course there's an honourable quality to that, but we aren't Knights Errant, and this isn't a real fantasy land. There's (quite possibly?) a massive amount of shit/stress coming with this. Why?

I won't attack your decision. I wouldn't bother to whisper or attack Siela in game. I haven't done that on any character. Except to annoy Nayan and Mandui. And I am, and have been, leader of a guild, I know its a decision YOU make. For all the reasons YOU choose. This one... I dunno...

I'm even a positive, usually unjudgemental guy. I like people. Even here. But there's a point when even I go "hmm, bugger that". I dunno if "hmm, bugger that" would be enough with all this...

Yes, I have succeeded in jibbering nonsense! But, well...

I just think Siela isn't worth the hassle - personally I think he's a turd. However, within "the RP realm" I think he has as much place as anyone else, IF he proves himself. I fear he will have short shrift of that though, as he has burnt most, if not all, his bridges long ago.

by **Nayan** Mon May 30, 2011 9:46 pm

In regards to society and peer pressure, he's shown more than enough about his role in that. When he feels there may be consequences from peer pressure (see: irl), he behaves. When he feels he's untouchable (see: internet), he's showing the real face. That, to me, is nothing but hypocrisy. And I'll never close my eyes to the real face, because I don't believe in .. whatever the word is for what ostriches do, sinking their head in the ground and pretending all is fine.

Which only brings us to this: there will always be someone who will want to "give another chance" and it will always end up the same way, because he (and anyone in his place) only focuses on one input: "there will be another chance, so don't bother Very Happy

". He might not consciously think that (wouldn't surprise me if he did, mind you), but the process is undergone in his brain. And that is why no amount of second chances will help him.

I know it might not sound too pleasant and kind, but noone said the truth has to be pleasant and nice. In fact, given the countless lessons of the past, if it's pleasant and nice then beware. Cause it's most likely bullshitting you to achieve something.

PS: Reported for harassing, Gruff!!!1!!!11!! No, you can't have my babies. Shoo!

by Guest Mon May 30, 2011 9:50 pm

ADHD isn't a carte blanche to be an asshat, even though 50% of the people with the diagnosis ends up with a criminal record.

"Officer, he harrassed me on wow!" Very Happy

by **Geldar** Mon May 30, 2011 9:55 pm

To give a more elaborate reply here, I would more or less reflect grufftoof's own reply but I will write it down anyway.

Its my personal belief that people do deserve a second chance when they earn it, at times it might take weeks, months if not longer to show that they are willing to change. However it is my firm belief that there is a certain few who do not change and say stuff they say to make people drop the 'heat' from them so to speak.

There is just a gut feeling with this that he will not change, you can't say and do that crap several times and not change. It simply means (to me that is) that he is playing with those who are giving him a chance that he does not deserve (again in my opinion), most probably because this is the internet and you can do everything.

Hat off to you Wulf for trying this, a very noble act. Though you have to contemplate over the reasoning many people have given here. Would it in the end be a waste of your efforts and time, or would it bring something positive? I'd say that we will find out in the end, but I take everything with a pinch of salt.

I will not critisize your decision, or your guild but I will say this. Careful with the path you are taking, the person you are taking under your wing can cause you alot of headaches if he turns out that his intentions are indeed foul. I personally consider him nothing more than a waste of time, space, effort and air due to the things he has done and keeps on doing.

But to each one his own. I wish you all the good luck you might need, and if not. I look forward to the result this might bring, regardless if it will be positive or negative, even if we are hoping for a positive one.

PS: ADHD and Asperges are no excuses for acting like a douche as the above post states.

by **Ave/Sariella** Mon May 30, 2011 10:02 pm

Indeed as the above posts state, those disorders are by no means any excuse, in my current class, theres a lass with ADHD and shes fine, abit loud but nothing more than that. I've also known plenty of people with it before.

by **Rae Wulfgnar** Mon May 30, 2011 10:03 pm

Honourable? Im not so sure. I wont be putting myself out to try and force him not to do anything, I will simply ask and guide. He knows if he hassles people then he'll be out and thats it. I don't take bullshit from people and if he turns out to be foul then I wont take excuses.

Thanks Geldar, I do hope it will be positive! If not, I'll be eating my own hat.

by **Gogol** Mon May 30, 2011 10:16 pm

And here I was hoping for a stake burning, or at the very least, some public lashing.

by **Gesh** Mon May 30, 2011 10:33 pm

I've been ganked by him myself, many, many moons ago. Nevertheless it's good to see someone giveing him a second chance and I think people loose sight of this sort of stuff when it comes to gameing and roleplaying, even the internet for that matter. It's very easy to paint someone a villian and just be done with it, and alot easier to grab a pitch fork and join in the Lulage over someone elses disfuntional personality. I wish him luck.

by **Grufftoof** Mon May 30, 2011 10:37 pm

We can always chain you up and whip you Lazarus, if you want... no?

And as is said above, Asperger's / ADHD / AIDS / Piles is not an excuse to be a dick or a pain in the arse. Though the latter might actually be a pain in thee arse.

As an aside, and from personal experience, my cousin has Autism and numerous other "antisocial" "complications" he is a brilliant, witty, kind person. A completely annoying arse to be around socially, but not a prick. He MEANS well. And that's the difference. He is also 10.

I wouldn't expect anyone to treat my cousin (or anyone else) differently "because they have <INSERT NAME>". Unless you needed a special chair or something, you know, for the Piles. Or something. But I think people should be careful with the "he's a kid" or "he has ADHD/something else" line of reasoning... as it's not reasoned.

Anyway, enough from me. Hope that if a chance is given then Siela steps up and proves any naysayers wrong, me included. If he manages to change his IRL self at the same time, that'd be a bigger boon. But I doubt either, really...

by **Muzjhath** Mon May 30, 2011 10:53 pm

One of the nicest people I've met had ADHD, to the most severe level there is.
As long as he was able to control himself he was the nicest guy around, you just had to watch yourself a bit at times and not say anthing he might missunder stand or hit him. Since then he could snap very, very violently.

But no, not a dick at all. So Cell shouldn't use maybe having a diagnosis to hide behind, make's life hard for others with it.
Same as using "people with dyslexia" as a reason not to try and spell correctly while using propper grammer. The more bad language they see, the harder it is for them to use the good.

by **Nayan** Mon May 30, 2011 11:07 pm

Also, on that note, I can understand "has x syndrome" to a degree, when one refers to a snappy reaction.

But when we refer to someone who's been going out of their way for months (or is it years now?) to try and actively grief, harass, troll and be an asshat, I can't for the life of me see wth any syndrome has to do with it. No, sorry, this isn't a syndrome. It's plain right being an ass. No excuse there.

In fact, attempting to attribute it to a syndrome is a bit of an offense to people with the syndrome. A bit like saying "Yes, I stabbed him in the back, because I only have one arm. I lost my left arm in an accident. Ever since, I've always liked stabbing people, because of that lacking arm. See, it's not my fault, really. I'm an angel otherwise."

by **Geneviève** Mon May 30, 2011 11:47 pm

Does anyone else see the irony in a guy who confesses to being 'angry' using 'u mad bro' as a response to every criticism or plee for compassion?

by **Braiden** Tue May 31, 2011 12:44 am

Now the million dollar question is: How many pages does this topic deserve?

by **Ledgic** Tue May 31, 2011 1:02 am

Not as many as it already has, to be frank. Either Wulf'll do good by the kid and he'll actually stop being a shithead, or it won't work.

Either way, it hardly matters to anyone. The server is laughing at the guy anyway. The truth of it, really, is that even he does "change" and proves as much, I highly doubt anyone is going to change their mind about him, allow him into their guilds or bring him into the community properly.

I'm cool with the idea, as I said before, and I respect people who go about this sort of thing. I am, however, beginning to wonder what good it'll do even if he stops being an arse.

Also, yes, please stop going on about the ADHD stuff being a potential excuse, it really isn't. My brother has it and he doesn't go around being a wanker to people. Well.. okay, outside of his family anyway :p

by **Shaelyssa** Tue May 31, 2011 6:40 am

Nayan wrote:In regards to society and peer pressure, he's shown more than enough about his role in that. When he feels there may be consequences from peer pressure (see: irl), he behaves. When he feels he's untouchable (see: internet), he's showing the real face.

Nayan, I don't think it's that simple that you can just assume how he behaves on WoW reflects his "true" personality. There is still peer-pressure over here in the game. Whenever I've spoken to him, he's always gone on about how his friends here in his guild cheer him on and expect him to uphold his "reputation". Also, I'm sure he has so many bottled up emotions or whatever inside of him from the real world that aren't really translating well into WoW.

I've never really been so affected by his "shenanigans", except for once when he was corpse-camping SGE members, so maybe that's why I'm being so "lenient" when talking about him; but either way, does he really deserve to be vilified so much?

I'm not English, I don't know what the EDL is or whatever, but when I was like around 12 or something, I thought everything older people told me was right, and my Islamics Teacher told me that I should want to stone adulterous women and whip homosexuals, and that I shouldn't be making friends with people who aren't Muslim. So using your "I joined the army at 15" thing isn't really fair, Gene, because different people "mature" differently.

Yes, he is relatively young, and yes, he does have ADHD or whatever. No, it should not be an excuse for his behavior, but it definitely should be taken into account.

If you keep alienating him and treating him like a villain, I don't think that's really encouraging any sort of positive growth in him or whatever. Of course, everyone is perfectly entitled to just tell him to stfu and piss off; we're not his parents and we don't have to mother him. We just want to play this game in peace without any drama.

But let's also try to be good Samaritans and give him another chance? :) Maybe all the other times didn't work out because in reality, nobody really gave him another chance? I'm not saying we should all be friends with him or anything; I know I can't be friends with him. I remember this one time I was talking to him, he annoyed me so much I actually felt like punching him in the face or something lol ... but I think just trying to tolerate him might go a long way this time?

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