[A]The Community of Light - date: December 14th

[Gahalla]

The Community of Light

Date and time: - December 14th. 20:00 servertime.
Location: Stormwind Cathedral, outdoors chapel.
Chairman/woman: Doctor Gahalla Rose, third session of four.

Forumtopic for discussion:
https://defiasrp.forumotion.net/t2236-community-of-light-setting-it-up

Intended session length:
1-2 hours, max.

Topics of next session:

The requested topic of this eve is the Shadow. What is it? How do we best face it?

What is this?
The Community of Light is a regular meeting and organisation about the faith in the Holy Light. It's supposed to be a rp platform for all kinds of religious rp within the alliance and a common ground between guilds.

IC the community of light is an ecumenical organisation. It is not and is not supposed to replace the church of the Light and does not claim to have authority over it. The Community of Light is it's own organisation, created by the attending parties for it's attending parties.

It is Fortesgue's creation, but me and Jeanpierre decided it simply was too awesome to allow to die because he's taking a break.

The official and full Ic name is: The Ecumenical Council and Community of the Holy Light

Who may attend:
Anyone may attend and any organisation may have a representative. Lore organisations and the neutral point of view can be accepted following a motivation (this is because we don't want to recognice anyone's exclusive right to these).
Standing invitations are given to:
Disciples of Light
The Shining Strand
Holy Lightbringers
Kingdom of Stromgarde
Lordaeron Alliance
The Chapter of Holy Anaethion
The Three Hammers
Ere Argus
The Dieudonne Seal
Friars of the Holy Word

We would like to invite but are unsure who to contact:
The Greymane Resolve

Anyone else is of course welcome. If you want a standing invitation just contact me and I'll make sure you're added to the list. Allthough we will probably attack and kill members of the horde.

The council
The council consists of the chairman and the representatives. The point is to discuss religious matters and if it comes down to it vote about the enactment of decisions for the Community. The chairman has no vote but the representatives have one each. Each organisation is responsible for the choosing of it's own representative and it is his or her duty to speak on the behalf of their organisation.
This to easen the load as lots of people all speaking together would be difficult to follow. The representatives are expected to confer with their organisation about their wishes.

The council has no authority in secular matters, nor does it have any enforceable will. All decisions taken are for the community itself and attending parties are free to decide wether they want to adopt it or not. All that is asked, but not required, is that the decisions taken are respected.

Rotating chairmanship
The chairman has no vote. But gets to delegate the word to representatives requesting it, members of the audience wishing to ask a question or for a decision and decide future topics for the duration of the term. The chairman sits for two months, three to four sessions, and then will have to be relected.

The election process works in that the representatives may nominee who they would like to serve as chairman, the nominees answer the nomination (accepting or declining it) and the representatives then vote for the accepted nominations.

Location:
The meeting will be held in one of the following locations:
Stormwind - Cathedral of Light/Behind the cathedral
Ironforge - Temple of the Makers and the Light
Stromgarde - The Sanctum
Gilneas City - Cathedral of Light
Tyr's Hand - Scarlet Basilica (warning - phased)
Western Plaguelands - Uther's Tomb
The Exodar - somewhere...

More suggestions are welcome. The location will vary between meetings, to bring the rp across the world

Goals:
The goals as we have envisioned it is that it is to be a platform for fun and collective rp. Something you would want to be a part of, but not have to be. Everything enacted by the community of Light is not to supercede the sovereignty of guilds but to be offered to all members of the alliance, upon their choosing.

Contact:
OOC organiser: Exaythe (Primary - chairman) Gahalla/Jayanti (Secondary), Jeanpierre (secondary)
Send a letter, pm, /tell if you have any questions, requests or such.

Previously discussed topics:
A common community of Light educational platform
The nature of a soul
The morals of healing
Tolerance and it's limits
Essence of the Holy Light
Should the Community of Light be more active?

[Osmand]

Wish I could go but I am currently timeless, I look forward to hearing how it turns out though.

[Drustai]

We would like to invite but are unsure who to contact:
Ere Argus
The Greymane Resolve

You may contact either myself, Sanara, or Exaythe. Exaythe is a priest, so she might be the best point of contact, but any of us will do.

[Lexgrad]

Are guildless Priests welcome to fill a seat?

[Gahalla]

Past meetings Isabis had been allowed to take up the role as a "Neutral representative". So basically: Yes, as long as your motivation for it is good enough.

[corleth]

Woo! was thinking about the state of TCoL the other day, glad to see its still going ahead. As the Chapter's only active Lector at the moment, I will most definitely be attending these.

[Melnerag]

The reason I never attended these meetings in the past on Exaythe, is due to them being on tuesdays 20:00, which is a No-game time for me. (and ironically, the only available day for Fortesgue. No, I am not Forte's alt ;( )

[Lexgrad]

Tuesday is council day to. I got a goody goody wimpy pacifist priest who im sure would love to come and RP

[Morgaan]

I might represent the Lordaeron Alliance...Being the only active priest in the guild at the moment.

[Lexgrad]

My priest can come and give you a sermon on peace and love? Any one?

[Gahalla]

Updated with a date now. Poke me or Jeanpierre for an invite to the calendar event if I miss to invite you

[Lexgrad]

add me! Arkson is the name! also it is my irl birthday

[Jeanpierre]

I gave the clerical ranks some thoughts. I sincerely doubt we'll manage to find a list of "requirements" and "standards" that will suit anyone, and I think it would ruin a lot of conflict RP if we impose such a standard.
So I brought the ranking system back to an 'evaluation by the community' system. Whomever is then a speaker in a meeting of the community of Light will then 'evaluate' the requests for promotions/ranks. This means we are all equally in control of this.. more or less

That's the TLDR version..

Now in more detail

There's 2 principles or key concepts throughout this proposal.
1) A flexible system. While the ranks offer a natural progression, they aren't hardwired to follow up on eachother and there are many shortcuts available so players can choose their own level of depth in the RP of the progression. Established characters (ICly or OOCly) can thus jump straight for a priest title.
2) Point back at this community. By bringing the requirements or judgement of candidates back to the community, we reinforce the community meetings. It provokes more open debate and lets the (not so subtle) differences between the different philosophies contribute to the RP.

I fully separated 3 types of titles/ranks, for each of the following categories:
- Development as a light practisioner
- Political titles
- Professional / Duty based titles
Why?
First of all, I've seen nothing but clusterfucks happening when these concerns are intermixed in ranks. Secondly, I believe parallell systems allow people to develop their own char in a way more true to their character instead of true to some system (which can't capture all forms of RP anyway).. And lastly, because some people might want to choose themselves on which part of the RP they wish to focus without being bothered with the rest.

Some 'constructions' and terms

Neither level, age, playtime or class are apt measures in a structure, so I built these 'building blocks' which will be used throughout the ranks. I only give 2, trying to keep this as simple as possible.

Report, or witness of an act
I believe in a medi evil setting, promotions or acknowledgements were given on actions and demonstrations rather than scheduled exams and course material. To incorporate that in the rank system, most of the requirements will thus be based on 'reports' talking about a person's actions or by a witness of the action presenting himself.

This offers some advantages:
- It's easy to make new events/actions/reports. The level of depth can be chosen by the players.
- Characters with a long history on the server can use past actions to justify a new promotion
- New characters with a long IC background can write their own reports and stories that are part of their character's background (ie: a mayor of Lakeshire could report about the works of the priest there).

An evaluation

Evaluations will form the core of the 'community' RP in these ranks. They always take place at a meeting of the community of Light and the judgement is performed by the speakers of that meeting. A concensus between the speakers must be reached, more or less, for an approval.

Why public? Simple: debate & RP. It's an excellent place for one order to say 'aye' and another to say 'naye' or 'heresy!'. A priest apprentice could walk up with a list of reports of his benevolent acts. One order could shout a delighted approval. Another could shout "that didn't prove anything". If these are community based ranks, they should be judged by the community at all times.

Development Ranks

These ranks offer a natural progression but -anyone- is free to call themselves whatever they want. It's only when they want to progress or reaffirm their rank within the Light community that they could do these things. For example, an experienced priest (even a level 1 who roleplays an experienced priest) can directly request the Light community to confirm his 'priest' title. He'll be subject to the requirements of priest only, and not forced to go through each rank. Our purpose is not to limit RP but to encourage doing more of it!

Novice
Definition: A cleric in the learning.
Requirement: A single report that testifies the person to have at least very, very basic Light knowledge (what are the Virtues and their definition) as a demonstration of their intention to follow this path. This doesn't have to be evaluated by the community. ANY Light clergy, no matter rank, can then hand out the Neophyte title.
Ceremony: If this rank system is approved, I'll write a tiny ritual a person can perform to initiate the new apprentice.

Acolyte
Definition: a priest in learning, but mastering the light philosophy and capable of demonstrating good practice of the philosophy in the field .
Requirement: Three reports(/witnesses/whatever) demonstrating the person has thorough knowledge of the Light philosophy and the will/character to contribute to the community within this philosophy. These reports have to be presented at a Light community meeting and evaluated. If judged sufficient, the title is awarded.
Ceremony: If this rank system is approved, I'll write a tiny ritual which can be performed after the Light meeting to initiate the new acolytes.

Priest
Definition: a fully educated priest, having mastered the philosophy and having performed many tasks and contributions to the community. The title is awarded to mark their abilities to act independently, without guidance, to some degree.
Requirement: Five (seven?) reports of demonstrations of the candidate's contributions of the community. One of these reports should include a testimony/proof of the person's in depth knowledge of the Light's philosophy. These reports are then evaluated by the community and declared sufficient (or not).
Ceremony: I was thinking a server wide ceremony for this in one of our churches/cathedrals. If this system is approved, I'll write one out and post the suggestion.

Notes
What are these reports? Well.. basically anything you deem fit within the works of a Light follower: healing sick or injured, helping poor, fighting evil, offering guidance, making excellent archives on Light books, demonstrating in depth knowledge to such a point it becomes an asset to the community, you name it!
"Priest X comes forth and presents his works. 1 of healing prisoners in jail, 1 of preaching in Eastvale and converting people, 1 of battling demons.. etc. Does he acquire the priest title?"

The point is simple: you do things, have someone witness it or write your own report, present them to the community and then the IC debate begins. The politics within the community itself could influence the system, but isn't that the point?

Political Ranks

These titles, I think, should be reserved to political RP. They don't necessarily demonstrate the person's aptness to handle/study light, but have a structural or governmental value.

High Priest
A high priest is a rank to someone who holds or manages a certain clerical order. This could be a guild master, this could be a village priest with his students, this could be a priest from a school, the head priest of the orphanage. Surely, you get it.

The title is requested if it's a community based position (ie: orphanage) or is simply declared (ie: I started a school for confessors, I'm the high priest).

Bishop
This is an official title, and I pray only a few (one?) will hold it. A bishop is bound to a region or field. I deem it interesting to let it play a role in our community. It could increase the depth of political RP. We have one for Stormwind, that I'd like to see remain in place (*admires his Fortesgue fanposter*).

But similarly we could have some positions related to Ironforge, Exodar, Lordaeron, Gilneas, ...
It doesn't necessarily have to be a large region. We could assign one for Eastvale, and then grunt at what a peasant farm that "so called Bishop" is managing. Just a thought.

Other positions
I limited it to these positions from above but obviously this can be expanded. I just think I spammed enough text for now.

Professional Titles

These ranks do not define what a character can or can't do. They are simply titles acknowledging a person's efforts and progression in a certain field within the community of Light.

Note: These requirements are soft. Why? Because I think people should choose whether this title or that one fits them. If someone rolls an expert preacher, who are we to deny them that title?
The purpose isn't to encourage people acquire many titles. The purpose is to offer a community oriented format for handing out titles. How much depth someone gives to this RP is their own choice. If 2 people want to play confessors, then our structure shouldn't slow them. If they want to RP the progression path of confessors, then our community should cater for that too. If someone wants a challenge, then the community will be gratefull to give the man a challenge!
I think one title per character is more than enough but that doesn't mean we should hardwire that as a rule.

Confessor
The person demonstrated several acts of helping confessions and bringing salvation or redemption to the criminals who confessed.
Requirement: 3 reports, to be evaluated at a community meeting.

Preacher
The person has traveled to different villages, or worked actively within the city with delivering the message of the Light.
Requirement: 3 reports, to be evaluated at a community meeting.

Healer
The person has demonstrated great healing abilities throughout 3 campaigns. (A disease event, for example, could classify as one)
Requirement: 3 reports, to be evaluated at a community meeting.

Exorcist
The person has demonstrated great knowledge on curses, afflictions and possessions. The person should have exorcised or cleansed someone at least once.
Requirement: 1 report on an exorcism/cleansing, 1 report proving their in depth knowledge.

Teacher in ....
The person has demonstrated basic skills in the subject, very thorough knowledge on the subject and its philosophy and some teaching skills. A personal followup by someone may be required at the start (trial period perhaps?) and a teaching programme may be requested of the candidate.
Requirement: A report on the depth of the candidate's knowledge, a report on the candidate's teaching abilities and a teaching programme. These need to be evaluated at a community meeting.

Other professions
I limited it to these professions from above but obviously this can be expanded.

Questions? Doubts? Opinions?

[Amaryl]

I have a few concerns,

first, is this a proposed system that is still to be vetted ICly by the community? or is this the frame-work in which the community will exist by next meeting?
(if it's still to be vetted icly, what happens if the ic vote comes back negative?)

but my main concern is that the community of light would be a platform for different light philosophies to come and debate on issues, ask for help on certain situations without the need to hierarchically enable it, since that is icly impossible and counter-productive.

( with exception of the speaker role, since otherwise its a clusterfuck)

in the last meeting i think there was a vote that the community of light, as in all the different philosophies on the light had no moral problem with KoS to preach their ancestors stuff. but it was a ruling without the force of law behind it. and neither should it be.

the thing is, my char would never vet any Anethionean for whatever position, since their views of the light don't match. which will make this whole thing a political mess. which is alright if people want that.

on what level do we put a dreaenei vindicator with 100k years of experience?

imo, if you want an hierarchy. role-play the church of light. not a community that is supposed to open lines of communication with all the different forms of light worship.

[Gahalla]

The system will have to be voted through yes, Amaryl. If it comes back negative then we'll deal with that then and think through where we want to take the CoL.
This hierarchy was meant to add a cooperative dimension outside of the meeting, make it more than a philosophy discussion hour. The meeting itself is one of peers and these ranks will only be taking into account in the form of address. No other privilieges.

One of the reasons we won't try to rp the church of Light is to keep that atmosphere of no compulsion. Everything about the CoL should be volountarily and just adopted if the participants want to. A priest should be able to stand outside this community and enter when -they- want to and never "not be part of the Church of Light".

But this is just another side of the CoL. One for us to help rp the religion together and acknowledge each others more easily.

[Amaryl]

One of the reasons we won't try to rp the church of Light is to keep that atmosphere of no compulsion. Everything about the CoL should be volountarily and just adopted if the participants want to. A priest should be able to stand outside this community and enter when -they- want to and never "not be part of the Church of Light".

that's my point... so why the need of a hierarchy within the community of light beyond the speaker to smooth out the meetings?

why does the ranks of all the different takes of the light need to be put under a common denominator?

is a vindicator then equal to a shadowbreaker and a paladin? how do they relate to each other?

why do we need more "titles"? or "proper form of adress"?

what's wrong with a meeting of equals discussing their needs and wants from different light followers without the need to muddy it with rank and title?

if the strand wants to sends light envoy's to exodar, this meeting is the perfect place for that. if the chapter wants to get a prisoner from dol based on "blasphemy", this is the perfect place to ask for extraditing.

however if you want to have a community driven system to promote human acolytes what the fuck would draenei be there for? why would a dreanei warrior need to be vetted by humans to become a vindicator? why would a man or woman that's going to be annointed as a knight of the silverhand need the approval of dreanei, dwarves en anethioneans?

if you want a community driven system to orchestrate the rise of priests from novice upto bishop, outside of your respective guilds, make the church of the holy light.

[Gahalla]

It was just an idea me and JP proposes because we think it could enrichen the CoL a bit. Add another side to it. Provide some more for the community.

And no. It was not the idea to put all positions under a common denominator. This is intended as a CoL rank that you'd have in addition to your normal/guild one.

[Lexgrad]

I like the idea, what is a church without politics!

[Osmand]

I like the idea however Jp mentioned having to know basic light tenants etc for promotion, I presume us professing the true Anethonian faith will not have to take part with the test on three virtues part. Those silly things do not get into our faith.

[Lexgrad]

see politics! XD

My wimpy hippy priest is gonna love you guys i think. Mind you he loves all living things

[Jeanpierre]

that's my point... so why the need of a hierarchy within the community of light beyond the speaker to smooth out the meetings?

why does the ranks of all the different takes of the light need to be put under a common denominator?

Hmpf. No offense, but I think you're looking at a hierarchy in a military system which exactly the kind of fuck up I've wanted to avoid. "OMGz, I AV HIGHER RANK tan U!" is totally not the point of this, nor do any of these titles hold value in that sense.
Think of it as an academic situation. There's student, researcher, doctor, professor. There isn't a direct hierarchy like in the university, so to speak. There simply aren't exams, and any evaluation is nothing more and nothing less than a discussion of the speakers at the community where all are equal.

"Would the community welcome this man's demonstration as proof that he is a priest?" If so, why. If not, why not. It's debate provoking, without giving clear cut rules.

I like the idea however Jp mentioned having to know basic light tenants etc for promotion, I presume us professing the true Anethonian faith will not have to take part with the test on three virtues part. Those silly things do not get into our faith.

This is a very interesting point and not something I wanted to exclude. 'Someone has to report' on your faithful actions. Nobody says it can't be your best friend. The community is free to decide themselves whether they accept that as sufficient requirement. Chances are some will, some won't. But isn't that interesting RP wise?
I mean, in the end, it doesn't determine what your char can or can't do. It adds some stimulus for people wanting to declare their efforts within the community.

So far the CoL can only handle "problems". I can see this as a way to add a more constructive and still debate provoking item.

The titles are nothing more than, say, a degree. It doesn't define who you are. It's just an acknowledgement of a community that you demonstrated a certain ability. How you choose to handle those titles, *shrug*, who am I to decide that?

[Amaryl]

that's my point... so why the need of a hierarchy within the community of light beyond the speaker to smooth out the meetings?

why does the ranks of all the different takes of the light need to be put under a common denominator?

Hmpf. No offense, but I think you're looking at a hierarchy in a military system which exactly the kind of fuck up I've wanted to avoid. "OMGz, I AV HIGHER RANK tan U!" is totally not the point of this, nor do any of these titles hold value in that sense.
Think of it as an academic situation. There's student, researcher, doctor, professor. There isn't a direct hierarchy like in the university, so to speak. There simply aren't exams, and any evaluation is nothing more and nothing less than a discussion of the speakers at the community where all are equal.

"Would the community welcome this man's demonstration as proof that he is a priest?" If so, why. If not, why not. It's debate provoking, without giving clear cut rules.

so firstly you want this be a peer-review scientific approach to handing out commendations of capability? that is something i can see as interesting if you like political clusterfucks. (( and don't get me wrong, if you're a masters or even a bachelor trying to convince someone with a PHD that you don't know on a personal level, about something related to his field, while he's wrong... good luck with that.))

i'm not saying its a bad thing, i'm saying entitlement comes with a title, no matter how little power it has. Which will make this a political game.

secondly; you say you want to avoid clusterfucks of "OMGz, I AV HIGHER RANK tan U!" yet there are "Political ranks" in your proposal that:

Political Ranks
These titles, I think, should be reserved to political RP. They don't necessarily demonstrate the person's aptness to handle/study light, but have a structural or governmental value.

have structural or governmental value. can you clarify your idea's regarding that?


and thirdly, since both you an gahalla missed answering several of my questions:

how do these "ranks and titles" relay to paladins, draeneis, shadowbreakers, worgen?


And lastly,

don't start your sentences with "No offense" while debating on issues.since that's always used as a pretext just before you insult or think you're going to insult someone. its like the the two words you used when you want to insult someone without insulting them, its just bad form . be a proper debater and just state your points without getting personal.

[Jeanpierre]

(( and don't get me wrong, if you're a masters or even a bachelor trying to convince someone with a PHD that you don't know on a personal level, about something related to his field, while he's wrong... good luck with that.))

Wouldn't be the first time.

secondly; you say you want to avoid clusterfucks of "OMGz, I AV HIGHER RANK tan U!" yet there are "Political ranks" in your proposal that:

Political Ranks
These titles, I think, should be reserved to political RP. They don't necessarily demonstrate the person's aptness to handle/study light, but have a structural or governmental value.

have structural or governmental value. can you clarify your idea's regarding that?

Throughout every proposal and concept of ranks proposed until now, people always built up ranks ascending beyond normal priesthood. That often lead to issues: people wondered how such a progression could be permitted, and what rights were linked to it, or who would acknowledge such an authority. Therefor I separated the development entirely from ranks that held "a more authoritative sounding title". This separation is further emphasized at the start of my post. What I mean is that I don't want a player's RP around his character development as a priest to be related to another player's personal ambition to become, say, Confessor or Bishop. Something a player can not escape is debate with the community. Can someone who follows the ways of Anethion be accepted as a priest by the community? Well.. let's see what he did, shall we?

and thirdly, since both you an gahalla missed answering several of my questions:
how do these "ranks and titles" relay to paladins, draeneis, shadowbreakers, worgen?

I guess I didn't answer it because I don't understand the question.

If you are referring to titles such as Confessor, then I don't see how race/class/profession are relevant. The question this system proposes is that the community asks itself whether or not they judge this person valid for the position.
If, on the other hand, you are referring to the progression from neophyte to priest, then... well I don't see how race/class/profession are relevant. Does a Draenei want to be acknowledged as a Priest by this community? Then what would this community ask of such a Draenei to prove his worth?
Does this system prohibit paladins? If you want a paladin development path parallel to this.. Feel invited to make one!

don't start your sentences with "No offense" while debating on issues.since that's always used as a pretext just before you insult or think you're going to insult someone. its like the the two words you used when you want to insult someone without insulting them, its just bad form . be a proper debater and just state your points without getting personal.

You didn't start that stab at me with "No offense". One would expect at least that much curtesy from a proper debater.

[Lexgrad]

That aside, the Friars of the pure word are like totally there!

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