Re: Middle-East & North African Discussion

by Guest Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:07 pm

~~And for the ohl of freedumb~~ I didn't type that Middle-East & North African Discussion - Page 2 Teehee10

I had hoped that the egyptians had more sense than starting to burn and loot. Oh well, something good may come of it yet.

by **Nithel** Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:08 pm

The only thing that makes me laugh is how every american newschannel is going: "Yeah this was obama's speech that set this in motion." "Nah this was Bush doing afghanistan in and showing the world that if you don't go democratic, we'll come fuck you up" "OBAMA'S SPEECH HE EVEN SAID HE WAS A BERLINER DAMNIT.. oh wait.." :') silly americans thinking they take credit for everything

I wish Belgium was added to the list. We could use a revolutions, maybe it'll give us a government. Sad

by **Antistia** Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:18 pm

Nithel wrote:The only thing that makes me laugh is how every american newschannel is going: "Yeah this was obama's speech that set this in motion." "Nah this was Bush doing afghanistan in and showing the world that if you don't go democratic, we'll come fuck you up" "OBAMA'S SPEECH HE EVEN SAID HE WAS A BERLINER DAMNIT.. oh wait.." :') silly americans thinking they take credit for everything

I wish Belgium was added to the list. We could use a revolutions, maybe it'll give us a government.

Surely you mean Fox and MSNBC? Probably Huffington Post too.

In reality it's due to complicated factors which are unique to each and every country. Some of which are infused by foreign influences, either which prop up the regime or which prop up the protesters. One can't completely count out foreign (American influence, or in the case of Tunisia, French influence) but they're far from the major factor which is causing this.

by **Antistia** Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:19 pm

Saali wrote:~~And for the ohl of freedumb~~ I didn't type that

I had hoped that the egyptians had more sense than starting to burn and loot. Oh well, something good may come of it yet.

Some citizens did organize in a militia to help the army in defending one of the biggest museums in Caïro iirc.

by Guest Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:21 pm

Antistia wrote:
Saali wrote:~~And for the ohl of freedumb~~ I didn't type that

I had hoped that the egyptians had more sense than starting to burn and loot. Oh well, something good may come of it yet.

Some citizens did organize in a militia to help the army in defending one of the biggest museums in Caïro iirc.

Yeah I noticed. The looters still managed to destroy two mummies though Mad

by **Antistia** Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:24 pm

Saali wrote:
Antistia wrote:
Saali wrote:~~And for the ohl of freedumb~~ I didn't type that

I had hoped that the egyptians had more sense than starting to burn and loot. Oh well, something good may come of it yet.

Some citizens did organize in a militia to help the army in defending one of the biggest museums in Caïro iirc.

Yeah I noticed. The looters still managed to destroy two mummies though

Damn shame, really.

by **Shaelyssa** Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:31 pm

There are about 80 million people in Egypt and like 90% are dirt poor ... when you are living in poverty with 8 children, dead people wrapped up in tissues don't really matter much (edit: besides all the moolah they sell for).

And please, what is all this about "French/American/whateverthehell" influence encouraging them to protest ...

by **Kristeas Sunbinder** Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:33 pm

Shaelyssa wrote:
And please, what is all this about "French/American/whateverthehell" influence encouraging them to protest ...

A "the simpsons did it first" case, French and American are quite known for having some revolutions in their history, they want to make sure they get the cred for revolutions *nods*.

by **Antistia** Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:35 pm

Shaelyssa wrote:There are about 80 million people in Egypt and like 90% are dirt poor ... when you are living in poverty with 8 children, dead people wrapped up in tissues don't really matter much.

And please, what is all this about "French/American/whateverthehell" influence encouraging them to protest ...

I'm not saying the French/American/whateverthehell influence is propping up the protesters. I'm saying Egypt receives about $1 billion in military aid from the United States a year and that France, usually a defender of human rights, was awfully silent about Tunisia's Ben Ali and his repression. Now the US is in quite a bind in Egypt (and their wording seems to show they think Mubarak is finished) so we'll have to wait and see. US is also implicitly supporting the protesters.

by **Shaelyssa** Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:37 pm

I know that Obama had spoken to Mubarak and warned him about whatever and he had a speech about him too, but as for FOX or whatever news, I would not know ... I stopped watching american news now blegh. I mostly just read the Kuwaiti newspapers here now or just BBC.co.uk/mid-east or whatever

by **Antistia** Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:39 pm

Shaelyssa wrote:I know that Obama had spoken to Mubarak and warned him about whatever and he had a speech about him too, but as for FOX or whatever news, I would not know ... I stopped watching american news now blegh. I mostly just read the Kuwaiti newspapers here now or just BBC.co.uk/mid-east or whatever

Fox sucks, Reuters, AP, Time and CNN is where it's at.

by **Shaelyssa** Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:40 pm

Only good thing that comes from fox is Fringe :p

by Guest Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:41 pm

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:
Shaelyssa wrote:
And please, what is all this about "French/American/whateverthehell" influence encouraging them to protest ...

A "the simpsons did it first" case, French and American are quite known for having some revolutions in their history, they want to make sure they get the cred for revolutions *nods*.

Meanwhile, in Sunny Ol' England..

Spoiler:

by **Kristeas Sunbinder** Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:43 pm

Antistia wrote:
Shaelyssa wrote:I know that Obama had spoken to Mubarak and warned him about whatever and he had a speech about him too, but as for FOX or whatever news, I would not know ... I stopped watching american news now blegh. I mostly just read the Kuwaiti newspapers here now or just BBC.co.uk/mid-east or whatever

Fox sucks, Reuters, AP, Time and CNN is where it's at.

Does the 4th panel describe it well enough?

Middle-East & North African Discussion - Page 2 Comic711

by **Antistia** Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:47 pm

Saali wrote:
Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:
Shaelyssa wrote:
And please, what is all this about "French/American/whateverthehell" influence encouraging them to protest ...

A "the simpsons did it first" case, French and American are quite known for having some revolutions in their history, they want to make sure they get the cred for revolutions *nods*.

Meanwhile, in Sunny Ol' England..

Spoiler:

With all due respect... Wait, who am I kidding? How to put this semi politely.. Assange is a criminal. His actions only bring damage and do no good.

by **Ralegh** Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:55 pm

Antistia wrote:
Saali wrote:
Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:
Shaelyssa wrote:
And please, what is all this about "French/American/whateverthehell" influence encouraging them to protest ...

A "the simpsons did it first" case, French and American are quite known for having some revolutions in their history, they want to make sure they get the cred for revolutions *nods*.

Meanwhile, in Sunny Ol' England..

Spoiler:

With all due respect... Wait, who am I kidding? How to put this semi politely.. Assange is a criminal. His actions only bring damage and do no good.

Really? what crimes has he committed?

by **Antistia** Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:03 pm

Ezlbag wrote:
Antistia wrote:
Saali wrote:
Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:
Shaelyssa wrote:
And please, what is all this about "French/American/whateverthehell" influence encouraging them to protest ...

A "the simpsons did it first" case, French and American are quite known for having some revolutions in their history, they want to make sure they get the cred for revolutions *nods*.

Meanwhile, in Sunny Ol' England..

Spoiler:

With all due respect... Wait, who am I kidding? How to put this semi politely.. Assange is a criminal. His actions only bring damage and do no good.
Really? what crimes has he commited?

As he has not been convicted yet I shall use the word alleged and variations thereof.

Assange has allegedly raped two women, though I shall say that this one is dubious.

Furthermore, the stealing and dissemination of classified information is a crime. PFC Manning has allegedly stolen this and Assange his organization has disseminated this secret information. As Assange is the boss there he is accountable.

by Guest Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:04 pm

Antistia wrote:With all due respect... Wait, who am I kidding? How to put this semi politely.. Assange is a criminal. His actions only bring damage and do no good.

I wouldn't call his whistleblowing criminal. In some cases it was needed and it was supposedly what started the revolt in Tunesia, but this article published today shows what kind of person he is quite nicely.

by **Antistia** Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:12 pm

Saali wrote:
Antistia wrote:With all due respect... Wait, who am I kidding? How to put this semi politely.. Assange is a criminal. His actions only bring damage and do no good.

I wouldn't call his whistleblowing criminal. In some cases it was needed and it was supposedly what started the revolt in Tunesia, but this article published today shows what kind of person he is quite nicely.

Other say the catalyst was a guy putting himself on fire. And no, it was not needed. If people even paid a bit of attention to the news they would have learned nothing new about Iraq/Afghanistan. The diplomatic cables are interesting but also damaging to the workings of international diplomacy, a thing which is just terrible.

by **Jomir** Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:54 pm

It's not rape if you shout suprise....

by **Nithel** Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:58 pm

The only American news worth watching is Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart. There I said it Sad

PS Shael, there's really no ruckus where you live? I heard a lot of countries had little things. We are worried Shael!!

by **Kil'drakor** Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:01 pm

Terrible to whom? I doubt anyone doesn't relate to what's been said in those cables. Kicking in open doors, that's what it is. We -all- knew Berlusconi is a feckless, vain and ineffective leader, for instance.

And regarding Assange, well, that's kind of dependent on what frame you give it. In other words, the spin you give the story.

It's a bit like the 'freedom fighter' vs. 'terrorist' debate. It depends on which structure has the most power, and thus can influence discourse more.

by **Antistia** Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:19 pm

Gnash wrote:Terrible to whom? I doubt anyone doesn't relate to what's been said in those cables. Kicking in open doors, that's what it is. We -all- knew Berlusconi is a feckless, vain and ineffective leader, for instance.
.

JAnthony
Julian.
I am a former British diplomat. In the course of my former duties I helped to coordinate multilateral action against a brutal regime in the Balkans, impose sanctions on a renegade state threatening ethnic cleansing, and negotiate a debt relief programme for an impoverished nation. None of this would have been possible without the security and secrecy of diplomatic correspondence, and the protection of that correspondence from publication under the laws of the UK and many other liberal and democratic states. An embassy which cannot securely offer advice or pass messages back to London is an embassy which cannot operate. Diplomacy cannot operate without discretion and the
protection of sources. This applies to the UK and the UN as much as the US.
In publishing this massive volume of correspondence, Wikileaks is not highlighting specific cases of wrongdoing but undermining the entire process of diplomacy. If you can publish US cables then you can publish UK telegrams and UN emails.
My question to you is: why should we not hold you personally responsible when next an international crisis goes unresolved because diplomats cannot function.

Julian Assange:
If you trim the vast editorial letter to the singular question actually asked, I would be happy to give it my attention.

This diplomat puts it very well. There has been a breach of trust, which makes the jobs of diplomats that much more difficult. That is a terrible thing because diplomats (as revealed by the cables, ironically) usually work hard to solve international problems, to solve crises, to preempt problems before they truly emerge.
Source of quote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/dec/03/julian-assange-wikileaks

A good example is the prime minister of my country, Mark Rutte, the Netherlands, who has essentialy stated that if American diplomats can't guarantee him it won't leak he will be less open about it. Now imagine that happening when, say, the Saudis have important information on the Iranian nuclear program but they get their doubts about telling the Americans because it might get leaked. What if it is important info regarding nukes? What if it's about the Iranians having a secret nuclear plant?

Source for the claim about Mark Rutte (in Dutch): http://www.nu.nl/politiek/2423121/rutte-voorzichtiger-wikileaks.html

There's also the fact that wikileaks shows no respect to an individual's privacy by publishing the screenshots of Sarah Palin's private e-mail address, in which you can actually find the contact list (Including the private e-mail of, say, Bristol Palin) etc. I can only wonder how Assange would feel if people were to show everyone the website of his mother's company...
So there's the privacy issue too.

by **Ehrfürchtige Bennedict** Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:30 pm

Saali wrote:
Antistia wrote:With all due respect... Wait, who am I kidding? How to put this semi politely.. Assange is a criminal. His actions only bring damage and do no good.

I wouldn't call his whistleblowing criminal. In some cases it was needed and it was supposedly what started the revolt in Tunesia, but this article published today shows what kind of person he is quite nicely.

I hate you... That article is nine pages long, and I just had to read it all... Laughing

by **Kristeas Sunbinder** Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:32 pm

That whole Assange thing sounds to me like "The people need to be able to know what their government, that they have chosen, is doing. If they do not know what their government does, then how can the people make good choices regarding their government". It just appears weird to me, that it's a crime to let the people know, what their government is doing. That the people would not like that their government is doing something and then vote against it when they can, and the government tries to stop this from happening.
But I admit, politics isn't something I study extensively, or at all.
Wouldn't the best thing for governments be, to just not do what the people that voted for them, don't like? (idealisme olololol?)

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