OOC Letter to Stormwind Council discussion

EDIT from Ovelia: Take the OOC discussion here instead please since it seems to be an amassed ooc discussion.

Discussion comes from this topic : Letter to the Stormwind Council.
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OOC: Mandui would reply if she hadn't been kidnapped by the trolls. Even then though, there would be nothing new to say. It has already been said a hundred times and is by now clear that:

a) Mandui was not in shadowform when she arrived in Darkshire. She went into shadowform only after she got stabbed and shot, in order to survive.
b) Imanuel told his men repeatedly to not attack, because he recognized her immediately, but they ignored his orders for about five minutes and kept attacking. They did so even after she was unconscious and carried away by the Disciples.
c) Her undead steed is only one amongst a thousand death knight and warlock steeds that walk the streets within the alliance. I still fail to see why only her horse is the one to draw all attention.

Also, something which should be common sense. The Chapter, after what has happened, must restore the damage to at least a minimum, before it keeps on with their plans. It makes no sense to have the three responsible go on with their lives after what they did. This would never come to pass under realistic circumstances. Actions should have consequences, even ICly, if we want to uphold a realistic feeling to it all.

So please, before getting into a never-ending circle letters, to which Mandui will reply the same way again and again, someone from the Chapter should appear and handle this. The fact that she still gets chased by the Chapter once she's in Duskwood obviously shows that nothing has been done. I'm almost happy she got kidnapped by the trolls, to be quite frank >_>

Mandui wrote:
c) Her undead steed is only one amongst a thousand death knight and warlock steeds that walk the streets within the alliance. I still fail to see why only her horse is the one to draw all attention.

?????????

This is allowed?

Tasjin wrote:

Mandui wrote:
c) Her undead steed is only one amongst a thousand death knight and warlock steeds that walk the streets within the alliance. I still fail to see why only her horse is the one to draw all attention.

?????????

This is allowed?

Yes And to be quite frank, it's just a mount. It won't bite your face off or something. If anything, it's highly practical in combat situations, since it won't go down as easy as a normal, living mount when shot at or pierced with a lance or the likes. Of course, most of the people with such mounts try to avoid riding them within Stormwind, but not outside of it. Mandui agreed to not use the steed within the city walls as well, but obviously that's not enough.

Mandui wrote:OOC: Mandui would reply if she hadn't been kidnapped by the trolls. Even then though, there would be nothing new to say. It has already been said a hundred times and is by now clear that:

a) Mandui was not in shadowform when she arrived in Darkshire. She went into shadowform only after she got stabbed and shot, in order to survive.
b) Imanuel told his men repeatedly to not attack, because he recognized her immediately, but they ignored his orders for about five minutes and kept attacking. They did so even after she was unconscious and carried away by the Disciples.
c) Her undead steed is only one amongst a thousand death knight and warlock steeds that walk the streets within the alliance. I still fail to see why only her horse is the one to draw all attention.

Also, something which should be common sense. The Chapter, after what has happened, must restore the damage to at least a minimum, before it keeps on with their plans. It makes no sense to have the three responsible go on with their lives after what they did. This would never come to pass under realistic circumstances. Actions should have consequences, even ICly, if we want to uphold a realistic feeling to it all.

So please, before getting into a never-ending circle of letters, to which Mandui will reply the same way again and again, someone from the Chapter should appear and handle this. The fact that she still gets chased by the Chapter once she's in Duskwood obviously shows that nothing has been done. I'm almost happy she got kidnapped by the trolls, to be quite frank >_>

With regard to a), I wasn't there at that particular time, but I had previously seen you in Darkshire and you sure as hell looked more like a cultist than most of the cultists do.

With regard to b), Imanuel seems to have a very lose control over his people. He also seems to have a very duplicitous nature. Shriyaro never saw him act anything but noble, even despite the misbehaviour of his subordinates so she doesn't have this opinion, but there are rumours in Darkshire that he privately condones what he publicly condemns.

It would be foolish to be distracted by point c) of that list since, in the instance under discussion, point a) completely supersedes it. If you weren't riding the horse at the time of the attack then it's attention drawing capacity (or lack thereof) is completely irrelevant. That said, I think there is a marked difference between walking the (comparatively) open minded streets of most of the Alliance towns and the closed borders of cult infested Darkshire.

Yes, there should be consequences, but does Stormwind have the military or political influence to impose any kind of sanctions on the Chapter should they utterly ignore Stormwind? Currently the Chapter seems inclined to do exactly this. I commented in another thread that it sounds as if they've declared independence (effectively) in the name of the Light and I think that still stands. If Stormwind couldn't motivate itself to expel the cultists by force from Duskwood in the first place it seems unlikely that they would be motivated (capable?) of expelling the Chapter by force either, meanwhile the Chapter seems inclined to ignore any political pressure applied to it. Their letters seem like they're stalling any chance of action until the problem goes away naturally, a very valid, practical and often successful political move.

OOC:

a) She was clad in dark robes with a staff that physically glowed black. That is more than enough to warrant your attack, even without the mount, simply because the use of Shadow magic is outlawed within the Kingdom of Stormwind. No matter how many times you put your hands over your ears and shout "LALALALA" that fact will not change.
b) Imanuel was ignored ICly on the grounds that what he was saying went against what the people present were seeing. Wielders of Shadow are known to have spells that afflict the mind and so it was only logical that the parties involved thought that that was what had happened; it makes a lot more sense than a Draenei Shadow Priest being a minister within the Stormwind Council, anyway.
c) Warlocks are outlawed just like cultists and Shadow Priests; that's why they hide in basements inside of casting their spells in the public eye. Using them as an example doesn't hold up. Death Knights of the Ebon Blade are permitted their mounts because they're just that - Death Knights of the Ebon Blade. The King allowed them to stay in Stormwind as allies, not citizens, and so the same rules don't apply.

***

You say that actions should have consequences even though you RP a character which is incongruous with the lore without any adverse effects. I honestly can't take you seriously; have you never heard the saying, "don't throw stones if you live in a glass house"? Only once your character has been removed from the Council and executed will I bother with your hypocritical drivel.

I would prefer any discussion regarding Mandui's shadow magic and mount if needed to be posted in an own topic rather than in a letter sent to the council. Which is to be responded by the council not with ooc discussions about a ic "topic".

I see many, many things which are wrong with this. I will very soon give my two scents and the laughter which will ensue will of course be funsies.

And I'm sorry Berathil, but what ye're saying is simply a load of bullshit. Except an explanatory post, of an OOC nature, tonight. Happy-poli-logies for the delay!

Mandui wrote:
b) Imanuel told his men repeatedly to not attack, because he recognized her immediately, but they ignored his orders for about five minutes and kept attacking. They did so even after she was unconscious and carried away by the Disciples.

Just a comment on this:
The entire point B is non valid in this OOC list of things that went wrong. As it clearly shows the chapter leader can even be overruled by his own men when they think he made a mistake. The mistake was here stop telling what to them appeared to be a cultist and for this he got arrested and put in chains. He was not ignored in any matter as we don't do that without any reason.

I completly agree with Berathils arguement, nothing personal Mandui ofcourse, but running into a town of light-crazed zealots in shadowy robes on an undead horse and expecting a welcoming is like a black gay Jewish Englishman running through Berlin in World War 2 and expecting a nice welcome.

Berathil wrote:OOC:
a) She was clad in dark robes with a staff that physically glowed black. That is more than enough to warrant your attack, even without the mount, simply because the use of Shadow magic is outlawed within the Kingdom of Stormwind. No matter how many times you put your hands over your ears and shout "LALALALA" that fact will not change.

At first, the reason for the attack was the shadowform (which wasn't there to begin with), now it's the staff. What's next? Mandui's scent implying she's a shadow magic user? Please, wielding a stave implies absolutely nothing, unless she actually uses it to cast a harmful spell, which she did, but only after almost being killed by the three of you. The more you support the argument of a character is to be judged by their appearance, the sillier you sound, both ICly and OOCly. I trust that Berathil and the other attackers are old enough to know how childish this is by now.

Berathil wrote:b) Imanuel was ignored ICly on the grounds that what he was saying went against what the people present were seeing. Wielders of Shadow are known to have spells that afflict the mind and so it was only logical that the parties involved thought that that was what had happened; it makes a lot more sense than a Draenei Shadow Priest being a minister within the Stormwind Council, anyway.

Again, I never mumbled a spell, I didn't move my hands, I didn't even winced, but according to you, I somehow managed to cast a spell and take over one's mind. You are simply making baseless and wrong assumptions and act upon them.

Berathil wrote:c) Warlocks are outlawed just like cultists and Shadow Priests; that's why they hide in basements inside of casting their spells in the public eye. Using them as an example doesn't hold up. Death Knights of the Ebon Blade are permitted their mounts because they're just that - Death Knights of the Ebon Blade. The King allowed them to stay in Stormwind as allies, not citizens, and so the same rules don't apply.

You are obviously RPing in the middle of a community while disregarding its rules. Warlocks and shadow priests are not outlawed. They are limited to use their powers only outside the city and against foes. That's pretty much it. Stormwind is full of them.

Berathil wrote:
You say that actions should have consequences even though you RP a character which is incongruous with the lore without any adverse effects. I honestly can't take you seriously; have you never heard the saying, "don't throw stones if you live in a glass house"? Only once your character has been removed from the Council and executed will I bother with your hypocritical drivel.

My character has been on this realm for over two years now. Barely anyone has complained before, although Mandui had a high position amongst the RP scene most of this time. Of course there were IC doubts, accusations, attacks and the like in the past. However, none of those went to a such OOC extend as in this case. I have to admit that I'm a bit disappointed by this.

I'm afraid I will have to disappoint you too by saying that I don't intent to change Mandui's personality (which has come to be what it is today through those two and a half years of RP on the realm) and/or the way she has dressed, just because it doesn't fit your ideals. If people were to think like you do, why would anyone ever agree to accept a character such as yours? Blinded so much by the Light fanaticism that it can't even tell friends from foes? I think that Berathil is a much bigger threat in these regards than Mandui to be quite honest

If people were to think like you do, why would anyone ever agree to accept a character such as yours? Blinded so much by the Light fanaticism that it can't even tell friends from foes? I think that Berathil is a much bigger threat in these regards than Mandui to be quite honest

The Chapter of Holy Anethion are like the church of England in the middle-ages, dont belive in the Light (Christianity)? We dont like you. You use Shadow magic (Witchcraft)? We purge you. In our mind, users are Shadow magic are enemies, and how is he a much bigger threat than you? He is one of the leaders of a major advancement into Duskwood, and you are big enough of a problem to cause this topic.

I have only one hard setting against all of this, and It's Undead and Demonic steeds.
I believe it to be foolish to roam around in the Holy Capital of Stormwind or similar areas upon such unholy, unclean and disease carrying monstrosities.


Becouse namely, A skeletal horse, is directly affiliated with The Scourge apart from already being a Supernatural, unclean and rot filled create of Nightmares.

People are frightened, Humanity is a strict believer in the Holy Light which damns Demonic magic and Unholy, Necrotic fizzles, as the people would be angered or fearful, Guards and the Authorities would be forced to involve, and frankly to see things logically. Heck, King Varian acknowledged the Death Knights back into the Alliance, but I am certain that he'd swiftly banish them would he be given a proper reason to.

Upsetting the people through their abominable visages and openly roaming Steeds of Undeath, Disease and Nightmarish visage, is good enough reason for such, or for a Wielder of the Light to simply confront.

I attempted to do something similar ICly with a specific Deathknight, always being in the central of the Cathedral Square, upon his Deathcharger, I gathered equally angry people or acted fightened when lone. Didn't work out though, but I believe that The Mount matters as much as if a Warlock for walk around with Demons summoned and horns sprouting from the forehead in the midst of a zealous and angry mob. :I


Evil mounts are evil! Cosmic and cool yes, ICly acceptable, No. *Sniffs an Undead Steed, passes out and reawakens deathly ill with a nifty hunger for .... brainz... Q

Mandui, in spite of being on "your side" (IE against the chapter ) I really feel that I have to point out a few things. Please read this in good faith. It is not a personal attack or an attempt to harm you, trashtalk you or in any way undermine you as a person or a roleplayer.

I think you are mixing up OOC and IC.

Berathil says ICly: I'm a fanatic, I attack people that looks like cultists or wears something that implies shadowmagic (great examples: Black robes, a staff glowing black, an undead horse, etc.)

Yes that is a flawed and illogical way of thinking, but heck, the guy is a fanatic! He does not think rationally or logically.

Berathil says ICly: She has done evil magic to take over Imanuel's mind.

Yes, he makes "baseless and wrong assumptions and act upon them." Exactly. Because that is how his character works.


When you say that you will not change Mandui's personality and clothing style, that is your choice.
But to echo yourself, the choices we make has consequences. When you dress like something that looks evil, expect some characters to think that she is evil.

You don't have to change anything, you just have the accept the consequences of not changing.


I hope this is being read in good faith as it is an attempt to solve the OOC part of the matter OOCly. The IC conflict should be alive and RPed out!!

P.S:
I also urge people to remember that this is, in essence, an event between The Dark Sphere and The Chapter of Holy Anethion. True, everyone is really encuraged to come by, but if you don't like what you see, you don't have to

I just decided for once to read a topic. And what i choice I made. Considering the open disccusion I'll give my try into posting a decent and valid opinions before someone yells " DK HES EBUL!! KILL!!11 D: ( Yes people don't wub me ;_; )

But back on the tracks.

Darkshire and Duskwood are under siege by dark forces, not only cultists and the Horseman but now it seems there are trolls patrolling the area, I presume the reason why Mandui is now "invited" to enjoy the sun of Stranglethorn Vale.
Under this circunstances and under the fact that the Chapter members are under a clear pressure to put an end to this happenings it is possible and much more like since we are dealing with zealots that innocents are targeted.

However, Mandui is a known member of the Council, some would clearly know who she is and thereby stop the attack. Unless that is she was a primery target, not that I have anything to do with it.
Point A and C. My opinion? Valid. Apply it to a Draenei known Council member. Makes me Meh a bit.
But still no reason to go bollocks on this. It's Pixels, they represent fun and the character we would like to represent ingame.

The Chapter made a mistake. Fine. Kick them off comand, send someone as advisor. Make a certain Blood Elf Death Knight Supreme commander. (*cackles*).
The thing is, I've targeted so many times in my life, really. However, to keep targeting people due to cliché's most likely on an OOC manner, makes me meh again.

But still! everyone has a valid point, now, Berathil targeting OOC the character's personality on this forum... I don't approve there are ways to deal with it. Personally and ingame whisper or a PM expressing your constructive opinion is a valid way. I know don't Mandui that well on IC regards but from what I've seen and more currently on my poor beaten warrior I see a great will and effort to Roleplay a character hard to do. I see merit and contribution for many things this realm has in Roleplay matters.

Back on the tracks. Cultist zealots rule the area targeting people. Fun. Exept Death Knight increase on the Area , yesterday we started to rebuild Raven Hill, feel free to show up on your Death Knight. You are alliance? Get Xfire, even you can help! (Shammeless Propaganda.)

*Salutes*

Mordazan wrote:Mandui, in spite of being on "your side" (IE against the chapter ) I really feel that I have to point out a few things. Please read this in good faith. It is not a personal attack or an attempt to harm you, trashtalk you or in any way undermine you as a person or a roleplayer.

I think you are mixing up OOC and IC.

Berathil says ICly: I'm a fanatic, I attack people that looks like cultists or wears something that implies shadowmagic (great examples: Black robes, a staff glowing black, an undead horse, etc.)

Yes that is a flawed and illogical way of thinking, but heck, the guy is a fanatic! He does not think rationally or logically.

Berathil says ICly: She has done evil magic to take over Imanuel's mind.

Yes, he makes "baseless and wrong assumptions and act upon them." Exactly. Because that is how his character works.


When you say that you will not change Mandui's personality and clothing style, that is your choice.
But to echo yourself, the choices we make has consequences. When you dress like something that looks evil, expect some characters to think that she is evil.

You don't have to change anything, you just have the accept the consequences of not changing.


I hope this is being read in good faith as it is an attempt to solve the OOC part of the matter OOCly. The IC conflict should be alive and RPed out!!

P.S:
I also urge people to remember that this is, in essence, an event between The Dark Sphere and The Chapter of Holy Anethion. True, everyone is really encuraged to come by, but if you don't like what you see, you don't have to

I fully agree here. Like I said countless times before, I don't mind IC accusations, attacks, attempts of murder, etc. However, in this case, the matter went OOC not by me, but by certain people who actually whispered me in game and OOCly told me to change my character's personality because it doesn't fit them. Sorry, but that I won't accept. Just like I don't dictate anyone how to RP or not to RP their character, so should people refrain from doing this to me.

The problem here is that the people mentioned above, are somehow so upset OOCly that not only do they drag this to the OOC field, but they also use the rage ICly, and thus destroy the RP. I really can'T do anything to change that.

I do not know the full scale of this conflict, but when you accuse them of using their OOC rage against you IC, I really think this is a matter between you, the guild's officers and the people involved, not a matter that should be discussed in a public forum.

Public and public, It's the forum for us Roleplayers. :3

Mandui wrote:
c) Her undead steed is only one amongst a thousand death knight and warlock steeds that walk the streets within the alliance. I still fail to see why only her horse is the one to draw all attention.

Warlocks is very strict in the Alliance and their magic practicly forbidden unless someone keeping a check on it.
Death Knights is allowed since they're not fully a part of the Alliance and its what they do.

A skeletal steed on a draenei suggests having used the forbidden art of Necromancy or trading with Forsaken which both if high treason to the Alliance.

I fully agree

So you accept that attacking you was the right thing to do for their characters and only object, formally and in character to the act? In that case, I don't think there's anything more to be said.

That isn't how your original OOC response reads though, it reads as an attack against the motivations of the other player characters. ie, you telling them it was wrong of their characters to attack you because it is not what their characters would do (or any characters). It also imposes a requirement for IC consequences that you have no OOC right to demand and no IC power to enforce, excepting a mass invasion of Darkshire from Stormwind to overthrow the Chapter and impose your own rule. Something that you can certainly try, but would rather ruin the RP fun actually going on there.

They acted their characters, that is what they had been trained to do. Attack cultists. Everything pointed that she was one, regardless of their leaders weak mind at the time.

Agreed.

Death Knights is allowed since they're not fully a part of the Alliance and its what they do.

Yes, they're given allowance to aid the Alliance and be respected enough not to be thrown fruit at or let the population gather up and confront them.

But they're not wanted, not wanted to roam the streets of the Capital upon disease filled monstrosities, and I cannot fathom the fact that some even walk openly into the Cathedral Square, dressed like the dark lord himself upon nightmarish steeds and then not expecting or accepting that the people rises up against them. >_o

Mandui wrote:
At first, the reason for the attack was the shadowform (which wasn't there to begin with), now it's the staff. What's next? Mandui's scent implying she's a shadow magic user? Please, wielding a stave implies absolutely nothing, unless she actually uses it to cast a harmful spell, which she did, but only after almost being killed by the three of you. The more you support the argument of a character is to be judged by their appearance, the sillier you sound, both ICly and OOCly. I trust that Berathil and the other attackers are old enough to know how childish this is by now.

Where on Earth did I say that the reason for the attack was due to Shadowform? I've not spoken to you prior to my last post; all your lying helps do is discredit you. But I digress - of course wearing cultist robes with a bloody Shadow-glowing staff implicates membership of an illegal cult, especially in a place like Duskwood. This is the world of Warcraft, not a modern, 21st century setting; assumptions based on clothing, race and overall appearance need to be made in situations like this one. Furthermore, we were not the ones to begin whining about an IC occurrence OOC; you're the only one here making infantile remarks.

Mandui wrote:
Again, I never mumbled a spell, I didn't move my hands, I didn't even winced, but according to you, I somehow managed to cast a spell and take over one's mind. You are simply making baseless and wrong assumptions and act upon them.

No, my character was making logical assumptions based on what was happening. It didn't matter to him whether or not you mumbled some dramatic incantation; all he saw was that there was an obvious cultist standing there and Imanuel defending her. I'd assume the same thought process went through the minds of the other people present.

Mandui wrote:
You are obviously RPing in the middle of a community while disregarding its rules. Warlocks and shadow priests are not outlawed. They are limited to use their powers only outside the city and against foes. That's pretty much it. Stormwind is full of them.

Take a look at where the Warlocks are. They're in a basement, hiding. Why? Because they'd be executed if they were found. Just because you wave your hands and shout that practicing the forbidden arts is all fine and dandy doesn't make the statement true, even in the slightest. All the lore given indicates that the use of Fel and Shadow is outlawed.

Mandui wrote:
My character has been on this realm for over two years now. Barely anyone has complained before, although Mandui had a high position amongst the RP scene most of this time. Of course there were IC doubts, accusations, attacks and the like in the past. However, none of those went to a such OOC extend as in this case. I have to admit that I'm a bit disappointed by this.

Barely anyone complained before because of your high position. There was another thread on this here forum pertaining to exactly that. And me, taking this to such an OOC extent? I'd have left it completely if you hadn't been so arrogant as to pour all the blame on the Chapter when you yourself are the main person at fault. I have to admit that I'm a bit disappointed by this debacle.

Mandui wrote:
I'm afraid I will have to disappoint you too by saying that I don't intent to change Mandui's personality (which has come to be what it is today through those two and a half years of RP on the realm) and/or the way she has dressed, just because it doesn't fit your ideals.

No, my qualms come from certified lore and not my own ideals. And did I ever mention personality as being a problem? What I have trouble grasping is that you insist on RPing an outlawed Shadow worshipper who dresses like a cultist and rides around on a skeletal horse whilst being the supposed Chairlady of a human Council.

Mandui wrote:
If people were to think like you do, why would anyone ever agree to accept a character such as yours? Blinded so much by the Light fanaticism that it can't even tell friends from foes? I think that Berathil is a much bigger threat in these regards than Mandui to be quite honest

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and, in your own words, baseless. Berathil instigated an attack on an outlawed cultist, not an ally. He has absolutely no problem working alongside the other orders within Stormwind and Ironforge; he simply doesn't align himself with blasphemous characters.

We must not forget though that Mandui plays an influental character and which takes alot of effort to handle, and we the community are often keen upon engaging oneanother especially those with higher positions.


Just saying, we ought to think about Taking and Giving, even though our characters are mad asses, we also ought to at some point also think about the engaged ones situation, ''always'' being picked at, complicating things might grow into an unpleasant experience eventually.

Same also goes that one might want to avoid to constantly wear and give viable excuses for zealots or whatnot, to suspect and confront oneself.

Alas, taking and giving, keeping things somewhat balanced for an overall symbiotic and common experience!


EDIT: '' I HATE DEMONIC AND SKELETAL STEEDS RIDDEN AT ILLOGICAL PLACES OR CIRCUMSTANCES! Goes fer all of ye!

Gorge&Clay wrote:
A skeletal steed on a draenei suggests having used the forbidden art of Necromancy or trading with Forsaken which both if high treason to the Alliance.

One can also have acquired the horse by killing its rider, no?

Shriyaro wrote:

I fully agree

So you accept that attacking you was the right thing to do for their characters and only object, formally and in character to the act? In that case, I don't think there's anything more to be said.

That isn't how your original OOC response reads though, it reads as an attack against the motivations of the other player characters. ie, you telling them it was wrong of their characters to attack you because it is not what their characters would do (or any characters). It also imposes a requirement for IC consequences that you have no OOC right to demand and no IC power to enforce, excepting a mass invasion of Darkshire from Stormwind to overthrow the Chapter and impose your own rule. Something that you can certainly try, but would rather ruin the RP fun actually going on there.

Like I said before, the Council doesn't wish to control other people's RP. That's why the cultists are still there, not because Stormwind doesn't have the military power to wipe them out.

Moreover, I said already that I do agree with their IC attack, although the manner with which it was done was rather overwhelming. My character has been attacked often in the past, so I expect this to happen from time to time. In this case, Mandui got attacked by three people, who are blatantly ignoring their superior's orders, she refuses to fight back until she's wounded twice and is forced to flee to avoid certain death. Now, from an IC perspective, all is fine and dandy to this point. What follows as a natural reaction is of course Mandui's anger towards them. Yet, nothing is ICly done to punish the attackers, as far as Mandui knows that is. Two of them are still in Darkshire, freely running around, the third one is gone. On top of this comes the fact of the OOC whispering and so on.

I'm really tired of all this to be quite honest. I caught myself repeating what I said so many times already. I don't know what else there is to say to clarify the current situation.

@Berathil: Warlocks are not hiding at all, I suggest you take a better look around Stormwind. As for what I said, that obviously makes no sense to you, I'd suggest you have a convo with your fellow guild members, then you will understand. Do me a favor and speak with them, because it's rather tiresome to fight in two different battlefronts about the same matter.