The discussion about the Shields gathers here.

Dahian wrote:Any organisation takes a LOT of work to run, I remember running a Raiding Alliance and the hate I'd get for that because this wasn't right or this wasn't, it drains you emotionally and in some ways physically. I know how the Council guys feel even if I don't like what they do, I respect them for taking the time.

I feel undrained, untired, unemotionally affected. Infact I am loving this discussion, it is very relieving for me to express my thoughts and perhaps it is something the council would like to know and can work with.

I don't have OOC hatred or grief, infact I love this discussion, I find it very fruitful.

Ugh, that sounded dirtily sarcastic and fake >_> it's not. I find this discussion actually interesting and I hope it can lead to something.

The council contributes to creating RP just like RP guilds do, so I cannot see a reason for them being excluded. And for as many groups, if not all, to have certain agreements as to what seems fair and good to everyone would be beneficial to all parts involved. At least that is how I see things.

Well! I'm now definitely out of this convo, since the contradictions are really close to instantly imploding every single healthy braincell I possess.

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:
1. Exactly. They can't speak for anyone, really, so what good can they do anyway? With planning and whatnot? They cannot do anything and have no real use aside from organizing events and such, and should stay out of guild business. Because if there's guild business and guild events, actual guild leaders, who have actual RPers under them will discuss it ANYWAY. Without a council mid-party.

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:
The only thing that can happen is if they both get together and solve it in a peaceful IC way. I.E. "What does the council want from the Shields?" "What do the Shields want from the council?". We should work on answering these questions together instead of answering each others hatreds with hatreds, wich I am guilty off myself, and perhaps make some inter-action rules between the two factions.

So yeah, was a nice discussion but eh...I'm too tired of spending tons of my free time to contribute to the council, only to get this repeatedly and over the past 3 years. Good fight, good night.

Netherian Helmsley wrote:The council contributes to creating RP just like RP guilds do, so I cannot see a reason for them being excluded. And for as many groups, if not all, to have certain agreements as to what seems fair and good to everyone would be beneficial to all parts involved. At least that is how I see things.

Well welcome to the REAL defias RP Alliance-side; The council doesn't talk to anyone OOCly. ESPECIALLY not to me, infact, all they have done is pass me rules and tell me what to do IC, I've never once recieved a single OOC request or agreement from the council. "Would you be okay with X and Y?" instead they go "Now it's X and Y, go along with it.".

So I have no idea what you're talking about. The council includes themselves, by force, because they have already been decided by the majority as the ruling body. This means they find that they can do things without discussing with whatever guild involved.

I am not afraid or pissed at all, because the council cannot do anything if you do not let them. People seem to misunderstand it, they see the council as some sort of RP-mafia, they are not. They cannot even do shit, all they can do is what you let them do and what you agree with.

There is no reason why everything should continue as it has so far, though. I am fairly certain the council would be open to discussion, to have more OOC communication, ultimately to make a better community. The question is if others are, I know I am at any rate.

Mandui wrote:So yeah, was a nice discussion but eh...I'm too tired of spending tons of my free time to contribute to the council, only to get this repeatedly and over the past 3 years. Good fight, good night.

Either you like it or you don't. Once again I remind you this is not OOC grief, this is an gamerelated (Gah, it's late xD) discussion I'd like to have. You're a councillor, you choose it, if you cannot handle the non-stop criticism, perhaps it's not cut out for you. Remember you choose to be there, no-one is forcing you, so you're liking being a councillor and the work.

For example! You state you get so tired and pissed by the draenei-shadowpriest thing that you hate it. So.. don't play a draenei shadowpriest, for example? It's the same thing. Either you find your RP worth it, and having the fun, to take the whine especially at your position, or you don't. And you clearly do on both subjects.

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:

Netherian Helmsley wrote:As I see it, the community can only suffer from people sitting on their rock and doing their thing rather than trying to get together and make things work smoothly as one large body rather than several cliques as it were. No one should be forced to work together, but I think we would all do well to consider it.

I rather arrange things myself, with the various guilds and people, than via the council. I do not want to give anything to the council, without recieving anything in equal amounts back. I have no problem communicating with the community and I -know- most, if not all, RP-guilds are behind me and with me and respect us Shields alot. Because I've been recieving alot of whispers during this discussion.

We can handle ourselves just fine. The council might be needed for some, but to me, they are something that holds me back and something I give something too without recieving anything but negativity in return.

And for the decision of being independant, managing myself without needing the councils help due to being a mature well-experienced roleplayer, I feel I should not recieve hatred or be bad. I feel the council should be like; "Hm. That's your choice, good for you.".

Well I'm not quite certain what your actual opinion is since it seems to differ in every post, but if you don't want the council involved in your business, then I think you have the right to turn them down, and don't let them affect you. If you think that will create more fun, less drama and enrich your experience then by all means do so, I know I would.

Just like any criminal, has the right not to let you interfere in their RP.

Gabriel Delaney wrote:Just like any criminal, has the right not to let you interfere in their RP.

My opinion has been very clear in every post and it doesn't count for just me, it counts for more in general in my eyes;

Either the council and us work something out we can both happily agree on and live with, or they can piss off and we both do our own thing. That's all I've been saying. And adding that I currently prefer pissing off and doing our own thing. And yes, every criminal has the right not too.

The current thing of them forcing and you -having- to work with them doesn't work for me any longer. Either it's a multi-functional relationship, profitable for both parties and both parties being equals, or there is no relationship at all. That has been my whole opinion on the councils' things.

The rest was anti-Saihna's hateful comment about us being OOC metagamers spam.

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:
Either you like it or you don't. Once again I remind you this is not OOC grief, this is an gamerelated (Gah, it's late xD) discussion I'd like to have. You're a councillor, you choose it, if you cannot handle the non-stop criticism, perhaps it's not cut out for you. Remember you choose to be there, no-one is forcing you, so you're liking being a councillor and the work.

For example! You state you get so tired and pissed by the draenei-shadowpriest thing that you hate it. So.. don't play a draenei shadowpriest, for example? It's the same thing. Either you find your RP worth it, and having the fun, to take the whine especially at your position, or you don't. And you clearly do on both subjects.

Well, I could turn it around and throw it right back at you, Ath. Let's see...

For example! You state you get so tired and pissed by the council thing that you hate it. So.. don't play a guard in Stormwind, for example? It's the same thing. Either you find your RP worth it, and having the fun, to take the whine especially at your position, or you don't.

See? It's really easy

As for choosing to be in the council, yes. I did choose to do so. However, I expected the community overall to be as generous with commendations and praises as they are with criticism, to have a certain healthy balance between the two, you know? I'm merely disappointed to see that this isn't the case, wouldn't you be? That doesn't mean I don't enjoy being in the council. As a matter of fact, the past year has been the best in terms of internal communication and the general atmosphere within the council and its members, even OOC wise. I can still be disappointed at certain people in the community though.

But since we're obviously not able to communicate, let's just leave it here, shall we? Ayup.

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:

Gabriel Delaney wrote:Just like any criminal, has the right not to let you interfere in their RP.

My opinion has been very clear in every post and it doesn't count for just me, it counts for more in general in my eyes;

Either the council and us work something out we can both happily agree on and live with, or they can piss off and we both do our own thing. That's all I've been saying. And adding that I currently prefer pissing off and doing our own thing. And yes, every criminal has the right not too.

The current thing of them forcing and you -having- to work with them doesn't work for me any longer. Either it's a multi-functional relationship, profitable for both parties and both parties being equals, or there is no relationship at all. That has been my whole opinion on the councils' things.

The rest was anti-Saihna's hateful comment about us being OOC metagamers spam.

Fair enough.

*goes to bed*

Mandui wrote:

For example! You state you get so tired and pissed by the council thing that you hate it. So.. don't play a guard in Stormwind, for example? It's the same thing. Either you find your RP worth it, and having the fun, to take the whine especially at your position, or you don't. And you clearly do on both subjects.

See? It's really easy

Except there is no problem with guard RP or criminal RP and things have been going fine and dandy untill Saihna calls us OOC metagamers and you council whine at us for not reporting it all to you. You want us to report to you, you have issues with us. So I'm saying, if you have issues with us, here I am giving you the terms to solve these issues you have with us;

- We both agree, as equal parties, on rules and regulations.
OR
- Piss off, let us RP whatever we want, let us have awesome friends and the awesome community between ourselves we have right now.

I'm even offering you multiple choices.

Do not forget, I did not start this, I did not start a thing. I respond to you guys starting the fact you want us to report to you and work with you. I can handle you councillors by just giving you back, what you give me. I.E. alot of crap in a purely in-character way and a purely in-character manner without adding any OOC, just the way you do it. I am not tired of this discussion and slander, I am not tired of dealing with you guys, I love being creative and acting on it.

Personally I consider the entire "criminal-event" as a IC one, and that it should not be ignored.
As long as the RP rules are accepted and respected, why would it not be okay.
Seen those argue against this that them selves have more than one IC character.

Do I like the Shields? Yes.

I don't even know why this discussions has arisen. Why should we have to script everything and predetermine all outcomes? That'd be like watching a movie or reading a book when you already know everything that's going to happen - boring. People keep bringing up this scheme to "glorify the Shields." So what if they did? What's your point? I saw many RPers on both sides of the fence enjoying themselves tonight, and that's what matters - if you didn't like what was going on, then don't join in. The Blazing Shields have to deal with spontaneous crimes on a daily basis; they don't have criminals whispering them OOCly saying "Okay, I'm about to assault somebody outside the Blade in the Dwarven District. Afterwards, I'll head towards the Cathedral where we can engage each other!" and, to be honest, it'd be very boring if it were like that (for both Shields and criminals alike). The Sanctuary was aware of the Shields leaving the city and an attack would've been arranged whether the Shields created alts or not. The Shields aren't expected to ask us before ten of them burst into the tavern we're RPing in and arrest us, so why should criminals ask before attacking guards? Of course, civilians are another matter and should be perhaps consulted first, giving them an option to opt out if they so please, whereas if you play a guard then obviously you're expected to engage criminals, since that is the whole point of your role.

As far as I see, it's simple. Lots of fun, enjoyable and engaging RP was created. What difference does it make if the Council were informed or not? I really don't see the problem here - though to some extent I see why people might be upset that they weren't informed.. I really don't see it as a big deal. Besides, if they were informed it wouldn't have been a surprise and they would've been ready - defeating the point of a sudden attack. Either way, it's happened now and I don't see how any harm has been done; if I was playing my guard character I know that I would've loved this event.

I have a suggestion - Why don't you respond ICly instead of OOCly to this.. e.g. have a crackdown on local criminals, or heighten security around the city with your own events. I'm not going to be upset if you don't tell me about it first, I promise

Netherian Helmsley wrote:

Sinclair/Unathi wrote:If guards left a city there would be an influx in crime, wouldn't there?

One would assume, but there wasn't last time that was the case even though, as I said, far more lawful guilds left.

The Cartel -really- wanted to do one then but for two weeks you completely drained Stormwind of all good RPers and potential opposition.

Regarding yesterdays thing, it would have happened anyway as people have said now is the logical time to strike. If you are going to ignore it and deem it OOC then step forward so I can ignore all your RP events in the future.

Fun was had, that was the objective. Objective completed on most fronts. If the Lighties are going to complain then let them do so, Shields. They dont do crimes, you dont RP withem so leave them to their own devices. You guys have more respect among the criminals with the event and thats what matters because its us you RP with anyways

Jomir/Nastor/Gannas wrote:

Netherian Helmsley wrote:

Sinclair/Unathi wrote:If guards left a city there would be an influx in crime, wouldn't there?

One would assume, but there wasn't last time that was the case even though, as I said, far more lawful guilds left.

The Cartel -really- wanted to do one then but for two weeks you completely dranined Stormwind of all good RPers and potential opposition.

Regarding yesterdays thing, it would have happened anyway as people have said now is the logical time to strike. If you are going to ignore it and deem it OOC then step forward so I can ignore all your RP events in the future.

Ah yeah, that was something I forgot to address. We would've definitely increased the crime rates, however there was nobody to RP with in Stormwind - almost everybody joined the campaign, so there was pretty much no RP left in the city.

And agreed. Why did you bother putting replacement guards in place if you're just going to ignore our attacks anyway?

After reading through too much of this thread, I can only say two things.

@Mansfield/Ath: get your head out of your arse and stop being a douche and drop the steriotype that you've made of the council and stop the "LEAVE US ALONE FFS!" Bickering. (I don't know you ooc'ly or ic'ly btw - This is all from the thread.)

@The rest of you lot: Seriously, the fuck are you doing up this time of night when you could be out getting wasted?

Bennedict wrote:After reading through too much of this thread, I can only say two things.

@Mansfield/Ath: get your head out of your arse and stop being a douche and drop the steriotype that you've made of the council and stop the "LEAVE US ALONE FFS!" Bickering. (I don't know you ooc'ly or ic'ly btw - This is all from the thread.)

@The rest of you lot: Seriously, the fuck are you doing up this time of night when you could be out getting wasted?

Well that's the community told.

From reading this thread, I can only call on the blessed shield you hide behind in justifying last nights events. 'Fun', surely if you was interested in maximising 'fun', in a rather utilitarian-sense, you'd have considered the 'fun' of the replacement guarding guilds. For I'm in one, and unfortunately, completely missed my call of duty due to a little thing I call, real life.

If I had been informed, an event been made, then perhaps I could've had some of this 'fun', Ath seems to preach about. Or the rest of my members, or Bloodwind's (whom do I need to remind you, saved the Shield's arses from Horde during your new events).

Yes, you do deal with random crime on a daily basis when you're in town, but this event wasn't random crime. It was organized crime, with double the amount of criminals due to your sudden (and understandable) morality shift in your alt crime guild. Alas, when I say it's organized, I mean it's not organized ICly...I mean, ofcourse it was on the most part but it was organized OOCly, by the brilliant OOC friendship and co-orporation between the Shields and the criminals. Hence OOCly, it would've been nice to be informed myself.

For my 'fun'.
For the criminals 'fun', interacting with a more prepared guard.
For the event's success.

It seems to me, the only 'fun', you was interested in having was that of chaos and was rather selfish in your getting of such. Considering you're the guards most of the time, you should drop the vindictive attitude and stop the crap, OOCly.

disclaimer: didn't read past page 4 yet. Too. Much. Drama.

Anaei/Vezullia wrote:The only thing I have to say about that event was that it was just like the riots, level 1 alts to mask the IC identities of others. However I really cannot be bothered to aruge therefore I wasen't present and don't have all the details.

They were on higher-level alts, but that is unimportant. What matters is that it was well-known or at least establishable after the event that Bloodhound Gang = Blazing Shields. So they were definatly not hiding behind alts to escape responsibility.

Eloresh wrote: I of course am not saying that you guys cant make events of your own, and leave the city when ever the fuck you want, of course you can, but when you do so, you should also take the consequences of your actions (yes, I know guards from other guilds were left behind, but it seems that was not enough, and the consequences go to you guys, SW main guards guild), dont you think?

Strictly-speaking, I agree. But this logic will carry us to unpleasant consequences. Every-time some guild organizes a w-pvp event, they will be blamed for dragging men out of SW and leaving it undefended. This is a matter where I think realism has to make way for fun RP.

Julia wrote:Yes that was totally the intention. That's why only one side got to be let in to plan it, or have a word about it, or even say whether or not they thought it was a good idea.

I remain unconvinced.

I want to point out that when Council decided to outlaw and arrest the ENTIRE CHAPTER they did not contact us either. Basically, all RP plans we might've had and all got suddenly ruined in five minutes without prior warning. We did not cause drama over this, we organzied, saw it through, contacted the Shields to arrange a proper detention (as nothing was organized by Council for it either) and organized our own trial. So, should we now go claiming that entire arrest was OOC and Chapter is innocent and no trial ever happened and go burn Ovelia?



Strictly speaking, Blazing Shields should've informed the parties involved (KoA, DoL, Bloodwind) that the event was going to happen at such and such time and would involve a crime-wave. However I can say that there are good arguments for making it a spontaneous outbreak. Blazing Shields however were fully vindicated by the conduct of the event itself; Four major evil guilds participated, we had 2-hour-long discussion beforehand to make sure none of our members god-emoted or griefed other RPers, and that organization paid off as there were only isolated cases, and in the end people directly involved with the event had reasonable ammount of fun. Although organized not in an ideal way, this event has generated Enjoyable RP.

On the other hand, let me point a finger at Mr. T. Wat; Mr Wat is an unknown person rolling a level one alt to spam General and using other means to make the shields look bad and encourage people to , not only not participate in the event, but ignore it completely. Now, not participating in the event is perfectly acceptible - I've skipped tons because I either didn't like the organizer, thought event was not fun, thought it was stretching boundaries of what I think is acceptible RP; but I never motivated others to ignore it or avoid it. Now, mister T. Wat did exactly that. In the end, he contributed to the event being less fun as it could've been as there were simply less guards there, and he turned people away who would've most likely had a fun evening RPing in SW.

Conclusion: Shields were wrong, T. Wat was wrong; but event was great fun and generated good RP, so Shields are far, far, far, far less wrong that Mister Wat!

As long as criticism will be done by those who RPed with the Shields once in their lives and not from those who RP with them on a daily basis, these criticism are surely not to be taken as truthful.

Julia, our bad, next time we'll ask for you permission and make sure the event makes sense and we receive a proper stamp of approval.

Netherian, during the last campaign we didn't organize anything that big for our own reasons, like having few people online, not having almost anyone to RP with in Stormwind and being in the middle of a guild reorganization. And also, crimes have been done as usual, it's just that you guys weren't there.

I hope these days showed some people how hard being a guard or a criminal can be, and how much efforts those who choose to play such roles have to put in their RP.

And, to make the flames go away...can we all started blaming bad stuff on Mr. T. Wat instead of each other? Its his job to take the blame after all. Woosh, the heat in this thread...

Nygarth wrote:Yes, you do deal with random crime on a daily basis when you're in town, but this event wasn't random crime. It was organized crime, with double the amount of criminals due to your sudden (and understandable) morality shift in your alt crime guild. Alas, when I say it's organized, I mean it's not organized ICly...I mean, ofcourse it was on the most part but it was organized OOCly, by the brilliant OOC friendship and co-orporation between the Shields and the criminals. Hence OOCly, it would've been nice to be informed myself.

Not organized ICly? Myself I met outlaws, cultists, fanatics and random yobs as well in order to arrange this event, and targets like important people and buildings have also been given IC to my men.

Alas, when I say it's organized, I mean it's not organized ICly...I mean, ofcourse it was on the most part but it was organized OOCly, by the brilliant OOC friendship and co-orporation between the Shields and the criminals.

I was trying to draw the line between the IC view of the term, 'Organized Crime' and ICly organizing it to refrain from people saying 'Organized crime? Well they're a crime syndicate! ofcourse it is'.
In comparison to the OOC organization that must've happened within the criminals, but not the rest of us.

Nygarth wrote:

Alas, when I say it's organized, I mean it's not organized ICly...I mean, ofcourse it was on the most part but it was organized OOCly, by the brilliant OOC friendship and co-orporation between the Shields and the criminals.

I was trying to draw the line between the IC view of the term, 'Organized Crime' and the OOC organization that must've happened within the criminals, but not the rest of us.

Yet the event has been seen as purely OOC by many.

Regarding not having informed you, why should have we? To have us steamrolled, once gathered dozens of people? And trust me, I don't write this to claim that you would, but because I know some of the things, let's say, that happened in the background.
And also, did anyone inform us that Bloodwind, Disciples and KoA guys were going to become the new guards, not giving us enough time to contact them and know their policy about arrests, imprisonment and punishment?

Nygarth wrote: It seems to me, the only 'fun', you was interested in having was that of chaos and was rather selfish in your getting of such. Considering you're the guards most of the time, you should drop the vindictive attitude and stop the crap, OOCly.

I don't see why you being prepared is such a big deal either - if I was playing a guard during the event I would've found the abrupt attack to be rather exciting; it wouldn't matter if I was prepared or not because it doesn't matter if you win or lose, it's about the RP. As a guard you have to deal with spontaneous and unexpected crimes. So what if it was organized? It just gives you a challenge to rise up to.

The only OOC organization I'm aware of really was "Meet here at this time." and establishing ground rules with our members to reduce any drama due to power emoting and what not. Also, the attack was supposed to take the guards by surprise - if you planned OOCly for an event your character was unaware of, it'd defeat the point of a "surprise" attack. I wouldn't say anything we did was selfish at all. A lot the crime my guild carries out is planned/organized OOCly and ICly, that doesn't mean we have to consult the guards each and every time we carry out such a plan.

If the guards had completely overpowered us, I'm pretty sure none of them would be complaining.