The discussion about the Shields gathers here.

Netherian Helmsley wrote:

Mallea/Trollmeat wrote:Making some fairly huge assumptions there, Neth.

Please elaborate.

Firstly, seeing this as anything other than the Shields getting a taste of the other side of their RP. We know that they're taking some time to do new stuff and break the monotony of guarding endlessly, yet you've leapt rather alarmingly to the conclusion that they're terrified of being replaced and concocted an elaborate plot to win back the respect of the Council and the rest of the stormwind lot by destroying rp and terrorizing the locals.

You also assume this is all a quest for "respect", when frankly the Shields seem rather well respected in the community they RP with, moreso than one would expect in a climate so fraught with accusations.

Oh, and assuming that the event is OOC and metagamed (possibly because it doesn't suit your particular brand of noble RP, I don't know, I won't make any assumptions on that). The Shields left the city quite publicly, and only the most braindead of criminals could have failed to notice the sudden abundance of fresh-faced guards and lack of angry thugs in blue armour. Thus making a surge in crime almost a certainty, really...

That's my only problem, honestly.

Netherian Helmsley wrote:It is fairly sad how people seem to care more about their personal prestige and comfort than making an effort to create more quality RP for the general population. This seems to be a tendency on the server as of late, and until recently I believed it was largely a horde phenomenon. Seems I was wrong.

I do hope this is not aimed at the Shields as ALL our very guild is about and all it stands for is bringing roleplay to others. Bringing roleplay to the community. Most our events are open for everyone, all our roleplay is based on roleplaying with others, we are a guild that offers roleplay to everyone else. A community guild. ALL our RP is based on providing it for others. Be it a lawyer, a cleaner, a random civvy, crooked criminal, we can RP w/ you and offer you RP. It's what the Shields are about.

What I also notice. It's always the same people on their side. Always the same people defending each other in the same ways, making sure their friends cannot be wrong and always agree with each other.

Eh...okay. I apologize but I give up after seeing points being brought up, which I already mentioned in my reply. I won't reply anymore and will just watch, hoping you guys will be able to solve it sometime within 2010

I forgot an essential part of my original post, which I lost because I was an idiot and clicked "home" when sent to the confirm page, I'll blame the beers on that one. About a month ago the Shields and many other lawful guilds left Stormwind for a fair amount of time. Where was the crime wave then? Would sure have made more sense then. No? As for the respect I "conclude" that the shields want, they have already said in this thread that they do. I have no problem with that. I just think it is handled the wrong way. As for the prestige part, I am not pointing fingers, it is the feel this entire thing gives me.

And you are assuming a lot if you think I have a problem with things because they do not fit with my plans. I joined in stepping up to keep things calm, do you think I had planned that or it suited me? Not likely. I have all the understanding in the world for Shields wanting to do something different for a while, I have no problem with that at all. I do however feel people should have been informed beforehand, and I felt it pretty underhanded of them to contribute to making Stormwind more of a mess than usual during their absence. That to me, felt like they were trying to prove some point.

Mandui wrote:Eh...okay. I apologize but I give up after seeing points being brought up, which I already mentioned in my reply. I won't reply anymore and will just watch, hoping you guys will be able to solve it sometime within 2010

There isn't even anything to solve but the random accusation of us being OOC metagamers with the purpose of griefing the whole community, a ridiculous far-fetched and outright insulting statement. Incase you haven't noticed, the discussion is about this;

- Shields RP leaving SW and purposely doesn't inform the council, IN CHARACTER, as they, IN CHARACTER, gave the Shields all sorts of shit and hatred. (Wut, there's only a "Blazing Shields are leaving Stormwind!" thread.)
* Some people from the council get pissed cause they weren't informed but swiftly deals with the issue by assigning random guards, avoiding conversation with the Shields.
- Shields have casual RP for three days. They host their own criminal event, bringing ALL the crime guilds together, having crazy fun and different RP. It's not the first open-community event they have hosted without telling the council. I.E. the public humiliation event. The public training-with-the-Shields day.
* Some people of the council gets angry, call the event OOC, slander the Shields some. Saying stuff that shouldn't be said.
- The Shields get angry and defend themselves with harsh words and making points aswell as saying stuff that shouldn't be said.

Rage erupts from both sides, slandering each other, nobody realizing there's nothing to solve, there's no issue. The only thing that can happen is if they both get together and solve it in a peaceful IC way. I.E. "What does the council want from the Shields?" "What do the Shields want from the council?". We should work on answering these questions together instead of answering each others hatreds with hatreds, wich I am guilty off myself, and perhaps make some inter-action rules between the two factions.

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:

There isn't even anything to solve but the random accusation of us being OOC metagamers with the purpose of griefing the whole community, a ridiculous far-fetched and outright insulting statement. Incase you haven't noticed, the discussion is about this;

- Shields RP leaving SW and purposely doesn't inform the council, IN CHARACTER, as they, IN CHARACTER, gave the Shields all sorts of shit and hatred. (Wut, there's only a "Blazing Shields are leaving Stormwind!" thread.)
* Some people from the council get pissed cause they weren't informed but swiftly deals with the issue by assigning random guards, avoiding conversation with the Shields.
- Shields have casual RP for three days. They host their own criminal event, bringing ALL the crime guilds together, having crazy fun and different RP. It's not the first open-community event they have hosted without telling the council. I.E. the public humiliation event. The public training-with-the-Shields day.
* Some people of the council gets angry, call the event OOC, slander the Shields some. Saying stuff that shouldn't be said.
- The Shields get angry and defend themselves with harsh words and making points aswell as saying stuff that shouldn't be said.

Rage erupts from both sides, slandering each other, nobody realizing there's nothing to solve, there's no issue. The only thing that can happen is if they both get together and solve it in a peaceful IC way. I.E. "What does the council want from the Shields?" "What do the Shields want from the council?". We should work on answering these questions together instead of answering each others hatreds with hatreds, wich I am guilty off myself, and perhaps make some inter-action rules between the two factions.

Wrong on two points that I would like to point out. First of all, there was accusations from the shields side about meta gaming because people from the "council side" if you want to call it that, got to know about the friday event ICly. Because it was "just a callendar event", the criminal who spilled it could not know. Ok, so how do they suddenly know on friday that they are all getting together for crime?

Second point is you say there is no issue. That is obviously not the case. If there was no issue we would not be having this forum drama right now. As I see it the issue is lack of cooperation between various guilds.

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:
Rage erupts from both sides, slandering each other, nobody realizing there's nothing to solve, there's no issue. The only thing that can happen is if they both get together and solve it in a peaceful IC way. I.E. "What does the council want from the Shields?" "What do the Shields want from the council?". We should work on answering these questions together instead of answering each others hatreds with hatreds, wich I am guilty off myself, and perhaps make some inter-action rules between the two factions.

You could have suggested this from the start and avoided the above shitstorm If this had happened, it would also not leave me all about the part you keep mentioning that involves Shieldhate from the council.

Anyways, I'm all up for that, although no idea about the rest of the ministers. And yes, I posted again. I saw this as a sign!

Just jumping in before I depart for my vacation to say that regardless of everything said here, or what happened tonight I more or less enjoyed the event on a alt of mine that got dragged in it. However, I think it would have been pretty epic if something was arranged between the baddies and the good guys beforehand, as clashes between the two forces like the LA riots some years ago.

I do however see there is alot of tension between people here, finger pointing on who is good or bad.. (ALRIGHT I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING RIGHT NOW, DONT CLICK "POST" ON THAT HATEFUL COMMENT O_O) and people tend to forget that RP is for everyone to enjoy, be it criminals, cultists, lighties, good guys, bad guys, you name it we are all players, enjoying the same game, playing in the same enviroment - and I do not see why we should make it anymore difficult than it is right now. So shape up people, put the keyboard away, take a deep few breaths and stop calling out who has more fault.

Noone is without it, everyone makes mistakes the important thing is to know how to admit and fix those mistakes if its in your ability to do so and let things run their normal course afterwards, we are a one community. Do. Not. Forget. THAT

Netherian Helmsley wrote:Second point is you say there is no issue. That is obviously not the case. If there was no issue we would not be having this forum drama right now. As I see it the issue is lack of cooperation between various guilds.

Between the council and the Shields. And they are both as guilty as one another, if disrespect and lack of communication. People who don't WANT to co-orperate or work with the council should feel free not to do so, without issues or without being "wrong" for not working with the council.

I for one have no interest in it, I only did it out of politeness. I rather just do my thing and not bother about the council at all.

However, if they have something positive to actually offer us, I am all in.

As I see it, the community can only suffer from people sitting on their rock and doing their thing rather than trying to get together and make things work smoothly as one large body rather than several cliques as it were. No one should be forced to work together, but I think we would all do well to consider it.

If guards left a city there would be an influx in crime, wouldn't there?

Sinclair/Unathi wrote:If guards left a city there would be an influx in crime, wouldn't there?

Read my post and stop initiating a circular discussion!

Netherian Helmsley wrote:As I see it, the community can only suffer from people sitting on their rock and doing their thing rather than trying to get together and make things work smoothly as one large body rather than several cliques as it were. No one should be forced to work together, but I think we would all do well to consider it.

I rather arrange things myself, with the various guilds and people, than via the council. I do not want to give anything to the council, without recieving anything in equal amounts back. I have no problem communicating with the community and I -know- most, if not all, RP-guilds are behind me and with me and respect us Shields alot. Because I've been recieving alot of whispers during this discussion.

We can handle ourselves just fine. The council might be needed for some, but to me, they are something that holds me back and something I give something too without recieving anything but negativity in return.

And for the decision of being independant, managing myself without needing the councils help due to being a mature well-experienced roleplayer, I feel I should not recieve hatred or be bad. I feel the council should be like; "Hm. That's your choice, good for you.".

Sinclair/Unathi wrote:If guards left a city there would be an influx in crime, wouldn't there?

One would assume, but there wasn't last time that was the case even though, as I said, far more lawful guilds left.

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:I rather arrange things myself, with the various guilds and people, than via the council. I do not want to give anything to the council, without recieving anything in equal amounts back. I have no problem communicating with the community and I -know- most, if not all, RP-guilds are behind me and with me and respect us Shields alot. Because I've been recieving alot of whispers during this discussion.

We can handle ourselves just fine. The council might be needed for some, but to me, they are something that holds me back and something I give something too without recieving anything but negativity in return.

Again you assume I mean everyone should listen to the council, that isn't the case at all. I am saying that it would in all likelihood be beneficial for the entire server, both for guilds represented in the council and those not to have some form of cooperation/communication. I believe that such could only strengthen the community.

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:
And for the decision of being independant, managing myself without needing the councils help due to being a mature well-experienced roleplayer, I feel I should not recieve hatred or be bad. I feel the council should be like; "Hm. That's your choice, good for you.".

Then why coming to the council and asking for guard rights in the first place? o_O

Netherian Helmsley wrote:Again you assume I mean everyone should listen to the council, that isn't the case at all. I am saying that it would in all likelihood be beneficial for the entire server, both for guilds represented in the council and those not to have some form of cooperation/communication. I believe that such could only strengthen the community.

Maybe, if the council was a representation of the major guilds.

Netherian Helmsley wrote:

Sinclair/Unathi wrote:If guards left a city there would be an influx in crime, wouldn't there?

One would assume, but there wasn't last time that was the case even though, as I said, far more lawful guilds left.

A failure to initiate rp then should not limit the community now, in my humble opinion.

Mandui wrote:Then why coming to the council and asking for guard rights in the first place? o_O

Falrock has because otherwise he felt we would get shit, a looong time ago. And the last time he literally told the council to "fuck off" in a letter and leave him alone OOCly all the time, you guys took his guard rights and slandered him all over. So he felt he either had to ask guard-rights or suffer your wrath.

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:

Netherian Helmsley wrote:Again you assume I mean everyone should listen to the council, that isn't the case at all. I am saying that it would in all likelihood be beneficial for the entire server, both for guilds represented in the council and those not to have some form of cooperation/communication. I believe that such could only strengthen the community.

Maybe, if the council was a representation of the major guilds.

1. The council doesn't represent a single guild.

2. What are these major guilds you speak of?

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:

Mandui wrote:Then why coming to the council and asking for guard rights in the first place? o_O

Falrock has because otherwise he felt we would get shit, a looong time ago. And the last time he literally told the council to "fuck off" in a letter and leave him alone OOCly all the time, you guys took his guard rights and slandered him all over. So he felt he either had to ask guard-rights or suffer your wrath.

Are you aware of how Falrock ICly behaved towards the council during that time? Just asking, because you don't seem to be and I think that's the time where the Shields-council clash first came to be, about a year and a half ago, maybe two.

*sigh*

I thought 2 years away the DB community would have been past all this crap by now.

I wish I'd never bothered saying anythng now, I really do, even more annoying since what I said was trying to be positive and give some good scenarios for everyone to RP. But well done DB Alliance, you've kicked the shit out of that and my own will to bother.....

RP should be spontaneous, it should also be fair, tonight IMO was, and I bloody well enjoyed it and wanted to have some aftermath RP, but I probably won't bother which IMO is a shame.

I've never liked the council, I have reasons that go back a long way, but they do a lot of work, very rarely thanked and for that I never publicly criticise them. Any organisation takes a LOT of work to run, I remember running a Raiding Alliance and the hate I'd get for that because this wasn't right or this wasn't, it drains you emotionally and in some ways physically. I know how the Council guys feel even if I don't like what they do, I respect them for taking the time.

Unless anyone has anything to post in my IC thread about this I'm out of this subject.

Gabriel Delaney wrote:1. The council doesn't represent a single guild.

2. What are these major guilds you speak of?

1. Exactly. They can't speak for anyone, really, so what good can they do anyway? With planning and whatnot? They cannot do anything and have no real use aside from organizing events and such, and should stay out of guild business. Because if there's guild business and guild events, actual guild leaders, who have actual RPers under them will discuss it ANYWAY. Without a council mid-party.

2. Any leader of a guild that would consider themselves a RP guild in equal manners.

All right, was just slightly confused as to why there was this big debate over crime happening in a guardless city. *Nabs Mandui's popcorn*

I do rather like the idea of the council being formed of representatives from a bunch of major guilds. Wasn't that the idea for the Horde council people were thinking of?

But of course, our current council is a longstanding thing, and that would constitute a pretty huge upheaval.