Re: [H/Blood Elf] Silvermoon Council meeting no. 14.

by **Antistia** Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:47 pm

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:
Antistia wrote:
Considering Forsaken have threatened Blood Elf children

I feel like you're talking about Antistia.

All forsaken are equal, but some forsaken are more memorable.

by **Kristeas Sunbinder** Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:49 pm

Gor'Thrak Frosthowl wrote:
Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:
Gor'Thrak Frosthowl wrote:
As for what Factions Leaders would and wouldn't do, that's a long discussion.
Which is a lot of what I'm getting at, it should be avoided for that very reason.
If we shouldn't get involved in things that in some way involve a faction leader, then we'd have to move all rp-pvp efforts to private efforts, nothing on behalf of the horde or the alliance. Clans that aren't under the Warchiefs command, but not enough of a risk to warrant force on his behalf, rich nobles that hire mercenaries so they can fight for his bragging rights.

Edit: *points at character sheets* under such regulations, Sin Belore would have to be outlaws or mercenaries.

It is rather rare that faction leaders themselves deal with battles, there are many regiments and military forces around. There's also a difference between that and things that may change the structure of entire races.

Small things can have great effects, especially if several small things are stacked.

by **Solanum** Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:31 am

Lots of whispering and discussion has taken place over this subject, in my opinion it is rather simple.

You can whine nag and moan that the Council is making decisions for an entire nation, but no-one else will. And I for one, find it bullshit that the bloodelven race would ignore an event which would have drastic consequences just because our Regent Lord happens to be an NPC and thus won't react to anything. The Council was OOC formed as a backdrop for RP, their entire purpose is to react to things like this.
They serve RP by enabling the Bloodelven race to respond to players.

I've been with the Council for some time, and unless things have drastically changed, viable arguments and opinions brought by the Bloodelves attending are always taken into consideration.

You can always nag, moan and rant that they're preforming unfitting RP because they claim the Council to have been brought in existence by the Regent Lord. This is nothing but a tool to explain their existence IC, and never have I seen it used nor abused to advocate personal opinions.

This aside, I would also point out, that the grand horror, the decision made by the Council to banish an entire race, AND ALL PLAYERS OF THAT RACE <-dramatic voice- is actually just to clarify characters will be registered, IC actions are taken to avoid further attacks, to minimize risks.
Get a bloody pass and you're free to roam around in our city again.
The only thing it stops you from doing, is dropping plague and not being a suspect, boohoo.

by **Swan Emperor Arenfel** Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:15 am

Get a bloody pass and you're free to roam around in our city again.
The only thing it stops you from doing, is dropping plague and not being a suspect, boohoo.

It still seems like red tape that would discourage a player from roleplaying in Silvermoon, rather than prohibit them from roleplaying in Silvermoon City as a direct result of that law.

Forcing players to undergo procedures just to exist in a certain area is unrealistic, and Forsaken roleplayers who either do not use Defiasrp.com may be left bewildered why they're suddenly being ushered out of the city or forced to apply for some imaginary permit.

Wouldn't it be more fun for both sides to allocate a guard to follow suspect individuals, or make an effort to kick-start a recruitment drive and boost the number of Blood Knights and other law enforcers? Having characters go for one of these permits seems like a way of keeping characters in check, without placing effort into watching them to ensure they do nothing volatile.

This is all gleamed from what I've read on the forums; the in-game situation may be totally different. Apologies if this is so.

by **Kristeas Sunbinder** Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:38 am

Arenfel/Mikhael wrote:
Forcing players to undergo procedures just to exist in a certain area is unrealistic, and Forsaken roleplayers who either do not use Defiasrp.com may be left bewildered why they're suddenly being ushered out of the city or forced to apply for some imaginary permit.

Or the realm forum :3 http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6160898584?page=1

The only other things would have been to spam /1 more or individually whisper every forsaken player ingame.

by **erwtenpeller** Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:48 am

If I had a forsaken character, I would simply ignore your stupid pass. It feels like a silly bureaucratic compromise, where you could just RP an angry mob and attack any forsaken you see. Much more sensible solution.

by **Gor'Thrak Frosthowl** Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:49 am

making decisions for an entire nation

I generally dislike this.

no-one else will.

And I'm happy for this.

To put it simple: I'm not fond of people taking administrative positions outside of personal circles in such a big way.

This aside, I would also point out, that the grand horror, the decision made by the Council to banish an entire race, AND ALL PLAYERS OF THAT RACE <-dramatic voice- is actually just to clarify characters will be registered, IC actions are taken to avoid further attacks, to minimize risks.
Get a bloody pass and you're free to roam around in our city again.
The only thing it stops you from doing, is dropping plague and not being a suspect, boohoo.

I've never really been on about that it's "impossible" for Forsaken to get in, or that it's hard. It's more the side/chain effects and a basic principle that I myself like to follow (Which I've put forth in previous posts). I don't think it's possible to pull off in a sensible way. Having said that, I'm just voicing my opinion and you're of course very free to keep on with this, I'm of no position to deny you that. I won't recognize these actions myself though.

To make a last point: It'd be nice if you didn't go forth in such an offensive manner, that hardly supports a discussion (Or anything else for that matter) and I really didn't expect to see that from you. You might know me as Cenalia.

by **Solanum** Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:39 am

Offence wasn't directed towards you, but towards Vangrel, whom dramatized for over a good hour during whispers.

Did not mean to attack you, or your opinion, for I do not consider you whining, you bring up a subject, state your opinion.

I can also respect that you do not recognise the actions yourself.
Though there is a huge difference between "I ignore the whole forsaken ban" and "I disagree to this RP, but instead of avoiding the issue I have with it and just claiming that I have a pass, I'm going to visit the Council meeting, and cause as much ruckus about it as possible in Character."

This sort of behaviour led to my agitated way of voicing my opinion.

In regards to the Council their position, or any other "high" position making drastic decisions, as long as it is done while keeping it as realistic and logical as possible while keeping the fun in the game, it is all good in my opinion. The moment people use this position to strengthen their ego they should be removed as soon as possible.

by **Gor'Thrak Frosthowl** Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:01 pm

Ah, misunderstood.

by **Solanum** Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:06 pm

Mea culpa, I should've read the entire thread before making my post, and I could've avoided it being misinterpreted.

by Guest Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:28 pm

Offence wasn't directed towards you, but towards Vangrel, whom dramatized for over a good hour during whispers.

If you don't want an opinion that does not match your own then do not approach somebody first?

I can also respect that you do not recognise the actions yourself.
Though there is a huge difference between "I ignore the whole forsaken ban" and "I disagree to this RP, but instead of avoiding the issue I have with it and just claiming that I have a pass, I'm going to visit the Council meeting, and cause as much ruckus about it as possible in Character."

Yeah, the difference is I went there and made role-play and instead got OOC whispers about how I don't conform to what "Loth'remar would do". But hey, let's not make role-play out of things and just complain about each other instead. It's way more productive.

Considering I've tried to attend as many Silvermoon Council's in order to uh, you know, role-play - I didn't see why this time should be different. For not conforming ICly I got whispered OOCly. Seems like a legitimate standard of role-play.

For that matter, I think I was told I'd be ignored OOCly if our delegation didn't leave ICly.

by **Solanum** Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:42 pm

I would be lying if I claimed that I got the impression your actions were purely based on in character motivations.
Was it you whom stated something along the lines, that to escort you out, a writing of Garrosh would be required?

The reason I whispered you, is because others whispered me, amongst them was one remark that you wanted to start emote fights, and such, in the middle of the Council Meeting.

I did feel that with current behaviour I got the impression people were struggling to take you serious, and were annoyed by having your misbehaviour stuffed down their throat combined with "pffft, you can't touch me." attitude.
Hence that I warned, it is not entirely impossible others would give up dealing with you, and would just ignore you all together.

You also seem to bring up the fact they would be in character placed in their current position by the regent lord.
Let's disregard this for a moment, let's disregard their IC position entirely.
Forcing your presence onto a group, is generally not accepted behaviour.
It was made very clear you were not welcome to the Council meeting.

If someone behaves in this fashion in a gathering of the Arcane Conclave, they are removed.
If an elf just barges in on an event of the Cult of Shadows, they are probably removed.
The opinion you OOC'ly have on the Council, (no one should speak for a lorefigure) would not mean your character is deprived of common sense.

To me it is very simple, one group of forsaken covers an elven village in blight. Because NPC's cannot react to these events, the players do, and have in fact, a Council in Silvermoon so that racewide responses, laws, and such, can be agreed upon to create a sense of realism and stability.
Forsaken are since then distrusted, and temporarily need to register their arrival and departure to the city.
If you do not like the Council RP for whatever reason, do not get involved in it.
But don't show up to just sabotage it.

But enough OOC discussion. IC Solanum considers your character mentally incapable and would gladly assist in removing you from the scene next time. Both for our peace of mind, as well as to stop you from further disgracing your race by your behaviour.

by Guest Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:53 pm

I would be lying if I claimed that I got the impression your actions were purely based on in character motivations.
Was it you whom stated something along the lines, that to escort you out, a writing of Garrosh would be required?

Keep it IC.

The reason I whispered you, is because others whispered me, amongst them was one remark that you wanted to start emote fights, and such, in the middle of the Council Meeting.

Keep it IC.

I did feel that with current behaviour I got the impression people were struggling to take you serious, and were annoyed by having your misbehaviour stuffed down their throat combined with "pffft, you can't touch me." attitude.

I'll role-play an ambassador that bends over to the whim of other people next time, but wait, no, that is not how political role-play works. He made his point and he stood by it. If nobody was capable of ICly responding and had to resort to OOC whining and complaining then that's really a poor etiquette of role-play from YOUR behalf.

Forcing your presence onto a group, is generally not accepted behaviour.

Well this statement is at the height of ironies - But forcing people out of role-play or for that matter banning the Forsaken from Quel'Thalas because "that's the logical thing Lorth'remar would do" is not forcing your wishes onto another person?

If someone behaves in this fashion in a gathering of the Arcane Conclave, they are removed.
If an elf just barges in on an event of the Cult of Shadows, they are probably removed.

Your point is inconclusive. If that's the case then why did I receive whispers about being ignored and not an in-character response or a removal?

But don't show up to just sabotage it.

Instead of complaining OOCly about what other people do IC you could just take it on the chin and accept that not everybody will agree with your character and push forward their own agenda. Lether stood his ground while he was insulted and people took their disengagement with RP into OOC whispers.

But enough OOC discussion. IC Solanum considers your character mentally incapable and would gladly assist in removing you from the scene next time. Both for our peace of mind, as well as to stop you from further disgracing your race by your behaviour.

Considers "your" character which one? Are you metagaming me behind the persona of two individual characters Lether and Vangrel? Did you ever consider that I went on Lether to be a dick IC and so Vangrel would save face? Nay.

I'm glad there is enough OOC discussion and next time instead of blatantly mixing OOC/IC I will get an in character response to an in character problem.

Thank you, I will for a while omit myself from attending the Silvermoon Council and engaging with the actual entity as a political government as it has been an incredibly disappointing experience.

by **Grufftoof** Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:02 pm

OOC (the players actions and reactions) can and will always have some impact on any given situation.

Why? Because any character played in a game is not a sentient being with their own cognitive abilities and functions.

There are some jumps above from people about this whole thing getting very OOC / IC touchy. It'd be nice if this wasn't so usually the "fall back" place for any discussion.

I've read up on the Council and their edict/decision. It makes, to me, perfect sense for the Forsaken to be distrusted and subject to sanctions because of the blight attack in Eversong. I'd say that making people carry passes is a very "light" decision in all honesty.

It's not a massive jump from Silvermoon and it's militarised fascism to that of historical RL governments. And I'm pretty sure both RL and game groups would come down hard on any possible and potential terrorist (for that is what it is, yeah? the Blight attack was an act of terrorism (in that, at least, it caused fear)).

This bit's all in purple. The purpose of this thread is/was to discuss the Silvermoon Council (Meeting 14). Please all keep that in mind.

by Guest Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:16 pm

I don't know. I find that if we're following ourselves rather than our own characters then we're just indulging ourselves. Mixing OOC/IC has lines - To hold a grudge against a person for role-playing their character is crossing that line.

That is directly connected to the expression of influence/power conducted by the Silvermoon Council (in a sense it has also confused me as to what it can and can't do)

Never the less, there will be no "we're going to ignore u now" shit - We will continue taking whatever you do IC. Expect hate and propaganda. All we want is the same RP back cutting out the entire OOC threats of ignoring, defining your power and whatever else.

The point of providing passes for example was so any Forsaken found without one could be removed - Then enforce that ban ICly. Not OOCly.

by **Cheyene** Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:39 pm

I love the idea of Sin'Dorei RP and think the council is a great idea in principle. Of course you need flexibility with the RP otherwise it just becomes confined with more OOC than IC input. It's fair to assume that the regent has approved the council and has delegated the non-military governing of the city and as such their decisions etc are totally valid.
The forsaken ban I have a bit of a problem with, I think its a natural progression from the events and IC approve of it and think it doesnt go far enough. Chey would be advocating a reciprocal bombing of UC at the very least. OOC though, I don't feel its been thought through enough and do think the Lord Regent would over rule it.
The forsaken are helping in Tranquillen, to lose them from there would overstretch the Farstriders etc etc and Lor'Themar in my opinion would draw the line if this line was threatened. The translocator to UC also, can only be maintained with Forsaken co-operation, wouldnt they withdraw this if they were banned from the city? I know I have no say in Silvermoon RP but just wanted to voice my thoughts on it as I may try yet again to be accepted into the RP circle.

by **Kristeas Sunbinder** Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:52 pm

Cheyene wrote:
The forsaken are helping in Tranquillen, to lose them from there would overstretch the Farstriders etc etc and Lor'Themar in my opinion would draw the line if this line was threatened.

One hand that could be true, on the other hand, by the end of TBC, the Forsaken are forcing the Blood Elves to send troops to Northrend while Lor'themar wanted to focus on rebuilding.
That by itself could mean that the Blood Elves actually owe the Draenei more than the Forsaken.

by **erwtenpeller** Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:00 pm

How about you don't worry about what Lorth would want, because none of you can actually know?

by **Kristeas Sunbinder** Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:02 pm

erwtenpeller wrote:How about you don't worry about what Lorth would want, because none of you can actually know?

And let a perfectly pointless discussion topic go to waste D:?

by **erwtenpeller** Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:05 pm

That would be wonderful! Wink

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