Re: To our Alliance and their guild leaders. An encouragment. [DO LOCK THREAD PLEASE. ]

[Jeanpierre]

If I am to be honest.. doing this here makes you equally as bad rp'er as the chap that emoted this to to you... take for example.. braiden.. now nearly all the toons I have ever rp'ed on have hated him for one reason or another.. it would be quite easy for me to hand a single gold coin to a beggar to kill this man,.. and when it came down to it.. hypothetically braiden would receive the following /e trows an axe at braiden's back trying to kill him, now to braiden, he would receive this message and do what you did and go "wtf umm noo..." not knowing the reasons behind it he has discounted rp weather it has a legitimate reason or not..
when such an emote is done.. you ooc should not know why or else it would be meta gaming unless you are braiden then he knows any and every criminal in sw wants his head on a block..

This is a very realistic situation. *nod* Totally. This isn't a stab at you, Monny, but at the concept you presented there. It's something I would have seen before.

Now... 1g is a lot of gold for a poor man. But why would he risk it? A poor man knows he's close to the gallows if anything happens.. and then the gold won't save him.
If you paid that in advance, why didn't he just run for it? Or run to Braiden and explain the situation, probably being rewarded even more? Or taken the gold and called the guards? And how could your char prevent such betrayal?

I try to envision a man in the street coming by and offering me 1.000.000 euros and a gun to shoot at one guy. Will I take the shot? Nope. It would be suspicious. You'd be on your guard. You'd probably doubt the safety of the assignment, the risk...
Perhaps in a bar, you could find some men under the influence of beer and the depression of the failure that is their life... People who feel like they have nothing to loose and over a bit of banter you manage to offer them a deal. You offer them a gold coin in advance. What is the chance they might choose to attack you instead and punch more gold out of you? Or if they accept it, would they do it in a hurry, still under influence and in a rather shady street or would they sleep over it, possible risking to reconsider?

The fact that people accept such a "1g to kill" offer so easily is, in itself, piss poor roleplay. You negated any reasoning that would influence your character's choices. And at the basis of this neglect, lies the fundamental believe that "nothing serious can get to you" or you have already forfeited your character and would like to drag one along with you. Neither are respectful towards the other roleplayer or your own character.

You're roleplaying. You're playing a story. Make it a story. Make it an assassination worth remembering. Make the plan have a gap or try to manipulate the target to be on the exact location at a given time to have him in the perfect position for the attack. Make it a challenge to persuade a man to be a hired gun or make it a challenge to be persuaded to be a hired gun.

If you're going to make such a dramatic impact on someone's story, it doesn't hurt taking time for it, making it a masterful piece of work for a great ending to a character's story. And it doesn't hurt, if you really think your char should try to murder another, to communicate first and try later, only to end up surprised and feeling he power emoted his way out of it.

[Vincent]

Thank you! I've been through this situations where a criminal has done horrifying crimes, got caught and arrested and then they're all "You can't force kill my character.."

I've had the exact opposite of this too, characters being chained to a wall in my basement, having my torture tools in my hands and then having them spitting on me, right in the face...

I'm kind of sick of having my hands tied when it comes to traitors and those that would hunt me to the ends of the earth, knowing that if I were captured then I'd go to the gallows, but my pursuers get away scot free...

[Seranita]

and I do very much agree with you here jean , what i put forth there was the most basic of senarios with no fleshing out as I was trying to put forth the meanins behind it all rarther than the emote itself

if we are to flesh it out said begger gets 1G to do it if sucsessfull he geta another 5g.. now if he fails to kill braiden he gets killed by the one that forced him into higher or braiden himself..

so to the pesent he gets this choice

1 get 1g.. kill braiden get 5g.. 6g total.. I can buy a farm yay!
2 refuses.. gets killed and dumped into canal
3 get 1g.. tell braiden get 100g but chance of death from one who higherd him
4 get 1g try kill braiden, fail and die

look at all the options a seasond criminan would force onto this poor beggar.. his best option is 1 and 3 sadly thow this poor begar could face death anyway

[Lexgrad]

Thank you! I've been through this situations where a criminal has done horrifying crimes, got caught and arrested and then they're all "You can't force kill my character.."

I've had the exact opposite of this too, characters being chained to a wall in my basement, having my torture tools in my hands and then having them spitting on me, right in the face...

I'm kind of sick of having my hands tied when it comes to traitors and those that would hunt me to the ends of the earth, knowing that if I were captured then I'd go to the gallows, but my pursuers get away scot free...

Yeah I have been there with torture too. Firstly I try to keep good ooc coms as it can get real for some people more than others, but you can get to the situation where its like "dont hurt my toon more" "Let me tell you this ic" and then ooc "I lied lol" In this case you should think yeah my char is a bad ass, but Lexgrad or a Vincent are prob good at their craft and think "Would my chars ablities of resisting torture" be greater than "Their ablities to get answers".

It is another case of being true to your char not to ego and spilling info. After your char can feel like a traitor and be broken slightly, all fun RP. (Slightly an asside from the main topic but the key is that refusal to spill the beans hurts bad guy RP and as such RP on the server)

[Frostfeather]

Thank you! I've been through this situations where a criminal has done horrifying crimes, got caught and arrested and then they're all "You can't force kill my character.."

I've had the exact opposite of this too, characters being chained to a wall in my basement, having my torture tools in my hands and then having them spitting on me, right in the face...

I'm kind of sick of having my hands tied when it comes to traitors and those that would hunt me to the ends of the earth, knowing that if I were captured then I'd go to the gallows, but my pursuers get away scot free...

Yeah I have been there with torture too. Firstly I try to keep good ooc coms as it can get real for some people more than others, but you can get to the situation where its like "dont hurt my toon more" "Let me tell you this ic" and then ooc "I lied lol" In this case you should think yeah my char is a bad ass, but Lexgrad or a Vincent are prob good at their craft and think "Would my chars ablities of resisting torture" be greater than "Their ablities to get answers".

It is another case of being true to your char not to ego and spilling info. After your char can feel like a traitor and be broken slightly, all fun RP. (Slightly an asside from the main topic but the key is that refusal to spill the beans hurts bad guy RP and as such RP on the server)

The majority of the characters are the baddest asses on Azeroth. Without a dungeon master you can never avoid situations as the ones you describe.

As for the axe in the back scenario. What if someone had drugged, used nasty spells and mind control to get the beggar to do it? Or if the case wasn't 1 gold to a beggar but a substantial sum of money to a bad-ass assasin with a cool code name (something with raven most likely)?

I wouldn't kill off one of my characters if I just saw an emote like that. I honestly think most wouldn't. We have control over our characters. Only them but we are the only ones that should control our characters. Trying to control other characters when the other player doesn't want to play along is never going to work.

As I said before. It can be extremely rewarding to RP without knowing anything in advance about what is going to happen, but it can also be very disappointing. It is just how it is.

Avoid to play with those that don't get what you are on about. Try to tailor your RP so you don't have to be in those scenarios that often if it gets too much.

Live and let live.

[Aweng]

/signed and aggreed

I am fed up of our troops getting into IC trouble in SW again and I will uphold severe penelties if death is avoided repeatedly. I hope that the guildleaders of the members in question are going to be informed, as some of the guildleaders (like me) may not be entirely aware of their members movements.

As for the: "I have control over my own character, I dont want to die". Please, get with the system. In real life, if you murder someone and get caught, severe penalties cant be avoided. I for one see Azeroth as my character's "Real World", and If he/she gets caught, I have to deal with the authorities, trials and perhaps death. So be it. Die and roll a new character with a new name. If you have the imagination to rp murder, you probably have the imagination to create an entirely new toon. In my opinion, characters live, and die. Emphasize "DIE"!

< Signed, Hage Timberston, High Warden of the Blade >

[Sanara]

As for the axe in the back scenario. What if someone had drugged, used nasty spells and mind control to get the beggar to do it? Or if the case wasn't 1 gold to a beggar but a substantial sum of money to a bad-ass assasin with a cool code name (something with raven most likely)?

As someone playing three (or four, but hum hum!) characters viable to serve as assassins (two of which are supposed to do so) I've actually given some thought as to how I would handle being tasked with an IC assassination.

Suffice to say, randomly appearing behind someone and emoting an attack is not one of the solutions I thought up.

[Thondalar Stormleaf]

What I meant with my quote which started the thread, is that I do not want my character to die for stupid reasons like.. say just being a death knight. If either of my Knights actually killed someone out of line, I expect that she will be trialed, punished and maybe even executed. Of course, I do expect a fair trial.

I would not roll a whole new character to level just because she died, but I'd probably do a namechange and background change.

[Jeanpierre]

The torture situation is a delicate one. Part of the problem lies with the fact you present the other player with a no win scenario... in spite of the victim often having to "cooperate" to even get in this position.

Part of the problem is the simple absurdity of the situation, if not IC then OOC. A common mistake I've bumped into is prisoners or captives being detained with some inexistent runes and powerful magics to counter any means of escape. That's 100% powerplay right there. And yet you depend on it, to make the situation workable, because everyone and their neighbour's dog has powers that could undo common shackles.
Secondly, how do you guard them? Full time? What if it's a mage? How do you channel a magical prison? Do you do it constantly? What's the effect on the captor? Is he being drained of his strength as he channels the spell? Does it impose a time limit?
I've rarely had a deadline with captivity. Only once did they say "Unless things go differently as planned, you're free in 3 days". For an officer of my guild, it's a tough pill to swallow to be presented with the powerplay and 0 commitment from the other side to take your planning into account. It fucks up my OOC planning a lot.
Another common problem is the lack of preplanned "outro". Much like the deadline, it is neglected. Villains focus on the capture "and then see what happens". The exit strategy... Ahh.. well.. No need to worry about that? hm?

So what you end up with is a situation that is simple "not fun":
- The victim is hampered in their OOC plans, without clear indication of when it's going to end.
- The victim's social circle is held hostage in their roleplay cause they have to treat this capture as "serious" but are rarely given the clues to work on or even make it fun to roleplay with
- The victim is "powerless" to do anything about its situation. (being unable to do anything already implies powerplay from one side)
- The victim is then "unable to prevent" torture, unless it betrays its social circle. Are you sure this is the path you want to take with your char?
- As torturer... Torturing is easier than being the victim. You're just poking tools... They have to react to the treatment, AND THEN still include the trauma, the shock, the recovery, the nightmares, the whole works. The torturer has the easy bit.

The -only- tiny victory is often left to the victim is resisting torture. Well.... Then don't be surprised that's the result. Poor as the choice may be, if it's the only choice given don't be surprised if people take it. I deplore it myself, but.. what have you given them in return?

Has the torture been made in agreement and with planning before even kidnapping the victim? If not.. Then that's balls for you. You're probably "tricking" the other player into a situation they didn't agree to partake in the first place.

[Sabien]

100% agreement with the above.

Well done Sir!

[Braiden]

Ahh, the good old make your characters killable topic. I have little to add as there has been alot of good points raised now and in the past. Much of what is discussed in this specific thread however seems like opinions on SW law to me, to avoid future issues with that I'd say that whoever gets the minister of justice position should open some form of discussion with the players of the realm OOC via this forum (that's at least what I intend to do if I get it *shamelessly promotes his own campaign*)

@ Monrena: I personally play a more complicated villain to go against then most and still have surprisingly few attempts on my characters life. However it always makes me happy to see that there are so deeply rooted grudges that I get my characters brought up as examples.

[siegmund]

Thing is there are a lot of ways for a character to die, or people /things they can be killed by.

There are issues with no-escape situations whenever you are a Good/Bad/Gray person, best thing is to keep good ooc relations and that is all you can do.

As far as assassins go i don't think i have seen any of them try to make things look like a accident (Like constitution in progress and you sabotage something), It's safe AND Unreliable, but still a bit Op, would be nice to see it happen.

My lock got into a fight with some Stormgradians yesterday, was a blast and even though it looked very ugly IC (Them attacking a elf that tried to help them for example) it was good OOCly, that is what matters.

[Jeanpierre]

look at all the options a seasond criminan would force onto this poor beggar.. his best option is 1 and 3 sadly thow this poor begar could face death anyway

I still think it's a challenging context really. You take an enormous risk by picking any random in the street. If he gets caught and talks, your char would end up dead. Hiring an assassin on a noble is an extremely risky business. Secondly, the man would certainly not feel motivated so easily. If you're so deadly, why would you hire him?

What I'm trying to point at is two things:
1) If you're going to make an assassination, don't make it shallow RP. Flesh it out in far far more detail out of respect for the weight this kill will carry.
2) The easy acceptance of deciding to kill someone, or hiring an assassin is a logic that is built on a foundation of "invulnerability" IC or OOC. If you would die for merely talking to a man about assassinating a Baron, you'd be thinking twice for addressing it to a random in the street. If you would die from merely considering the assassination, or endangering the life of a Baron, then you would certainly think twice IF and HOW you would assassinate the man. So taking such a thing lightly is in itself a neglect of the reality of the situation. As such, I feel such a player entirely forfeits their right to wield the "realism" card.

Imagine someone would try to convince -your- char to kill someone and what it would take to get that person to kill someone he/she doesn't know. Imagine the target being a person of high social standing. You would think twice before doing that. If you accept such an offer on a whim, then you are either not valueing the life of your character (and trying to take someone down with you) or you are not taking your own mortality seriously. Even for a hired gun, this isn't an easy choice to make. Do not -make- it an easy choice. Keep it a tough one.

As for the torture thing, or any evil char for that matter, it's often all but a cliche mish mash of bland events. "My char tortures people for breakfast. Rawr!"
How bland the RP that follows!
"X pokes Y with a red hot metal poke"
"Y screams in pain"
Whoop dee doo. Now I get to read there's complaints that too many victims keep an attitude in the face of torture.

Well.. Where's the emotions of the torturer? Where is his psychological condition? You're about to deal incrutiating pain to a man till he becomes deliriously mad and wishes to confess even his dirtiest secrets to his mother-in-law just for the pain and torture to stop.
How does the torturer deal with this? Let me guess... "Hur hur, he's mean and evil. He's psychotic.. Cool huh?"
Right. So basically your char isn't human. Then you can't complain about the victim not behaving like a Human. This would be different for, say, Forsaken or Undead who have (almost literally) their conscience burned out of their existence.

When you need to torture a victim for information, you're always going to be confronted with your own boundaries. You want the information, but do you want it so so badly you're willing to breach that boundary of your own humanity to keep on pushing it while the man screams, cries and pleads for mercey? Answering you're psychotic is probably the most shallow cliche answer.
Even the torturers have their breaking point... Yet I've never seen one flinch at the most gruesome of actions they do.
There is no such thing as a "torture" school... Well.. actually there is. And the SS had discovered it too: doctors.

Apparently, one of the "tricks" they would do in the past to get a torture as far as they could is to detain a doctor or dentist's family. Then bring in the prisoner to his practice.
"Doc, this man knows information about X. We need that. If we don't have the answer by tomorrow... We shoot your kids."
This situation is surreal from an emotional point of view. But look at it from each character's point of view.
- The victim is confronted with a man with skill, knowledge and a great reluctance to inflict pain... but also a man who's incapable of stopping because he knows too well the prize of refusal. He may hate, curse and detest the torturer, but his very own humanity will tell him the impossible situation his torturer is pushed in. Of course he'll plead for mercy, knowing the doctor/dentist will not remain unaffected by it, but also come to understand he can't stop until this is over. Furthermore, he's not only fighting for his own life but also that of another!
- The torturer is a common man, who has no interest out of his own violition to inflict pain.. but could probably not live with himself if he doesn't. He will plead to the victim as much as the victim will plead to him! He doesn't want this. He simply doesn't have a choice... He'll try to warn the victim of the pain it will do because he prays the victim will confess. He'll try to beg not to have this continue but he will continue.
- The guys holding the family... sit back.. have their stomach turned, but all they have to do is watch and listen. Their inaction is actually stronger than any action they have to take. It would probably make them sick and have nightmares, but as long as they do not order to stop, the results will come.

Compare that to the shallow "Let's increase the heat of my torture poke" and perhaps you'll see my point. Make it good RP. Death, torture... Give it depth. Give it immersion.
Don't play the heartless, careless psycho.

[Lexgrad]

As for the torture thing, or any evil char for that matter, it's often all but a cliche mish mash of bland events. "My char tortures people for breakfast. Rawr!"
How bland the RP that follows!
"X pokes Y with a red hot metal poke"
"Y screams in pain"
Whoop dee doo. Now I get to read there's complaints that too many victims keep an attitude in the face of torture.

Clearly you never saw Seddai work

But from the pov of the Shroud we never just did it. Of the 2 cases I recall, one was torturing Ast who let slip that she knew Scarlets to Lex and a few days later we took her in. The second time was on a Forsaken who was caught and tortured to try and find out where they were. Both knew what would befall them.

But this is the crux of the matter, why should the good guys have plot armour. The law is on your side but if you have caused a evil dude to take offence at you why is it so wrong that the good guy should look to take the consquences?

It must be a blade that cuts both ways or else there is even less room for bad guy RP.

[Jeanpierre]

Meh.. JP's been tortured a few times. *shrug* Because he's clearly the kind of character that could reveal critical information. Definitely. Like... all the secrets of the Kingdom rest on his shoulders. He probably knows to whom Lex lost his virginity too! And his dog!
All in all the torture RP were fun, mind, but I've had to refuse the occasional "offer" simply because of the overload of offers.

My reaction to the torture RP isn't that it's a bad concept, but I rarely find it well executed. Well executed in "funny" terms, but rarely in immersive terms. Most torturers have no emotional spectrum, and only express 2 emotions "amusement at the prospect of dealing pain" and "frustration at the lack of results". With such an emotional complexity to a torture session, I find it a bit crude to make remarks of people resisting torture.


To me, the crux of the matter is not about plot armor though. It's about mutual respect for eachother's characters and each other's roleplay OOCly.
The reason why it might appear like plot armor for good guys is most likely because we are reactionary. Usually one assumes there is no evil unless an evil-doer shows up and does evil.

The one initiating this kind of RP, good or bad (though the baddies will often be on the initiative) risks imposing a lot of influence on another player. As mentioned oft times before... One could be on the verge on inventing a cure for cancer but .. ahh.. nope, a simple mugger in the street just decided to draw his dagger and stab you in the chest. Whoops. Sorry kids, leukaemia is there to stay for Christmas.

I'm quite sure there's a few whine threads from the baddies when good guys suddenly, out of the blue, decide to storm all shady looking places (slaughtered lamb?) and potentially "ruin their plot and RP".
This is exactly what the baddies are doing with every unplanned stab, capture, torture, mugging.

The realism card is played by both sides, and all too often to push people into things they don't want. However, here's a critical difference between the initiator and the player reacting.
The initatior of the conflict/RP choose this. He choose, knowing the risks and consequences, to go ahead with it. And when it fails, he backs out, negating the consequences.
How is that different from a good guy choosing not to partake in a kidnapping? Well the good guy didn't start by jumping half naked in the midst of your evil-guy-convention, waving his middle finger and shouting "take me". He wasn't the initiator.

If he was.. then he follows the same rules and consequences.

[erwtenpeller]

Skarain roleplays magic in a very serious and proper manner, following lore and real life logic on the ways of use.

Just quoting this because it made me chuckle. I know what you mean, the wording is just hilariously ironic

---

Now I'm just going to read though the thread and dump random replies below:

Spoiler:

[Kristeas Sunbinder]

Any sufficiently advanced technology is undistinguishable from magic.

[Seranita]

@ braiden

Indeed your charicter has made a very large impact on all but ironicaly my deathknight shentin.. monrena spent monts literely trying to contact you and failed.. she even higherd the cartel to try and kidnap you.. they turned down her job once they realised it was not safe

@ jean..
yes I do very fully agree with you.. the examples I provided was simply the most naked skelital baseline story behind "how" it would happen.. naturaly if one was to attempt to kill someone or higher someone to kill someone.. it would need much more "fleshing out" I was simply tyring to set the basic in your face example simply for ease of reading and clarity..

ps and it would take a hell of a lot to force monny to kill someone.. infact she would likley need to be tortured to insanity in order to force her hand in such a way.. that or her family

trust me when I say I take ic death for all involved seriously.. Only last night i was shitting myself.. Monrena herself came mere inches from death and was saved luckly by a quick thinking exaythe, by all intensive perpouses had exaythe not acted as quick as she did.. my profile name on this forum would likley have turned to "shentin"

[Lexgrad]

Meh.. JP's been tortured a few times. *shrug* Because he's clearly the kind of character that could reveal critical information. Definitely. Like... all the secrets of the Kingdom rest on his shoulders. He probably knows to whom Lex lost his virginity too! And his dog!
All in all the torture RP were fun, mind, but I've had to refuse the occasional "offer" simply because of the overload of offers.

My reaction to the torture RP isn't that it's a bad concept, but I rarely find it well executed. Well executed in "funny" terms, but rarely in immersive terms. Most torturers have no emotional spectrum, and only express 2 emotions "amusement at the prospect of dealing pain" and "frustration at the lack of results". With such an emotional complexity to a torture session, I find it a bit crude to make remarks of people resisting torture.


To me, the crux of the matter is not about plot armor though. It's about mutual respect for eachother's characters and each other's roleplay OOCly.
The reason why it might appear like plot armor for good guys is most likely because we are reactionary. Usually one assumes there is no evil unless an evil-doer shows up and does evil.

The one initiating this kind of RP, good or bad (though the baddies will often be on the initiative) risks imposing a lot of influence on another player. As mentioned oft times before... One could be on the verge on inventing a cure for cancer but .. ahh.. nope, a simple mugger in the street just decided to draw his dagger and stab you in the chest. Whoops. Sorry kids, leukaemia is there to stay for Christmas.

I'm quite sure there's a few whine threads from the baddies when good guys suddenly, out of the blue, decide to storm all shady looking places (slaughtered lamb?) and potentially "ruin their plot and RP".
This is exactly what the baddies are doing with every unplanned stab, capture, torture, mugging.

The realism card is played by both sides, and all too often to push people into things they don't want. However, here's a critical difference between the initiator and the player reacting.
The initatior of the conflict/RP choose this. He choose, knowing the risks and consequences, to go ahead with it. And when it fails, he backs out, negating the consequences.
How is that different from a good guy choosing not to partake in a kidnapping? Well the good guy didn't start by jumping half naked in the midst of your evil-guy-convention, waving his middle finger and shouting "take me". He wasn't the initiator.

If he was.. then he follows the same rules and consequences.

Ah but yet Jean Pierre both examples I have given had a very good RP reason and the victims were given every chance of escape.

What we need to do first I think is seperate random doing stuff for lols RP from real story driven RP. Yeah idf some guy with an ooc name comes to kill your char for his own glory it sucks, but really just do down, someone in sW will heal you and all are happy. But the key is when someone comes to assassinate you, do you trully know whether it is just random meh RP or if this guy has stalked you for days.

The same is with the torture, you assume it is a sensless kidnap and then shit RP but it was not like this at all in the cases I present (however that is a narrow example but it is still incorrect to write off all the RP). In both instances the cause was the victims actions. If Ast hadnt mentioned knowege of Scarlets to Lex she sould have been fine. If the forsaken haddnt been caught attacking them, she would have been fine. But this is exactly what I mean by cutting both ways. The Chars were caught and the consquences were torture. You can not on the one hand expect people who break laws to face justice if when you "wrong the bad guys" that they can not have the oppotunity to get vengence or have any avenue to do what they want.

Just as a Murderer should face his consquences so should the good guy who sees too much or the white knight who foils a plan should face the consquences of that.

[Amaryl]

The bottom line is this: It takes two to tango.

And your standards and opinions aren't necessarily your partner's standards and opinions.

Its called preference.


your consequences aren't his, and his aren't yours, and there is Nothing wrong with that.

Show some respect and either find a middle-ground, or don't RP together.

since a dance looks horrible when one party tries to waltz and the other to salsa...

since these arguments always come down to: you need to confirm to my standards so I can have fun with my RP! and never the Otherway around.

[Jeanpierre]

since a dance looks horrible when one party tries to waltz and the other to salsa...

Why so negative on my dancing style?

[Amaryl]

Cause my knees hurt from bumping into yours constantly :'(

[Jeanpierre]

Now Lex... I think we're closer in agreement that the tones of our post may suggest. A few excerpts to help show that:

My reaction to the torture RP isn't that it's a bad concept, but I rarely find it well executed.

The same is with the torture, you assume it is a sensless kidnap and then shit RP but it was not like this at all in the cases I present (however that is a narrow example but it is still incorrect to write off all the RP).

So it isn't badly done in all cases. I can testify that is true. We both seem to agree there.

In both instances the cause was the victims actions.

The one initiating this kind of RP, good or bad (though the baddies will often be on the initiative) risks imposing a lot of influence on another player.
...
How is that different from a good guy choosing not to partake in a kidnapping? Well the good guy didn't start by jumping half naked in the midst of your evil-guy-convention, waving his middle finger and shouting "take me". He wasn't the initiator.
If he was.. then he follows the same rules and consequences.

Again we seem to agree. If you make a bad move, don't push your luck.

So in summary... THIS:

[Lexgrad]

Very well JP... You can keep your soul this time!

[Vincent]

It'd be nice if some of the people on this post would put there money where there mouth was when it came to this topic of discussion...

Because I'm a bad guy, I should die if I'm caught...

I'm not allowed to dispatch my hunters? Why the hell not?

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